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Thread: Vaccines

  1. #41
    Member McDudeski McGee's Avatar
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    Re: Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    I am not confusing anything
    My man, you're also confusing Popper and Bayes. It seems like you lean toward Bayes given you seem have to knowledge of machine learning which is really cool stuff. Bayesianism implies we need to say goodbye to falsificationism in the context of scientific justification.

    The big picture is that hard science is usually about locking down grant money and submitting papers. It isn't a debate club, not even with interpreting quantum mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    no result is ever final
    I know it is spooky Halloween season, but should we really expect the phlogiston theory of combustion, or the caloric theory of heat, or the luminiferous ether, to come back from the grave? Einstein once remarked that the core ideas of thermodynamics will never be overturned. I think he was right. Sometimes we arrive at a consilience, where results arrived at by different methods lead to the same result. (This is what caused Poincaré to drop his opposition to atomism.) Consilience is like multiple crossword puzzle entries interlocking; we can't change one entry without changing all of the others, which means all of the separate findings have more certainty as an ensemble. Science is more than facts plus logic, but it is also something less holistic and less blurry and more internally articulated than a paradigm.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    at which point all the involved people go back to drawing board.
    When we don't have a better theory, anomalies in practice just get tabled. The precession of the perihelion of Mercury never falsified Newtonian mechanics.

    The brute force involved where expertise/experience REALLY counts is coming up with a good hypothesis that has the decent chance of survival in above two trials.
    I agree. Without theoretical guidance, scientists will use heuristics on the fly and just crunch though experimental possibilities. I.G. Farben discovered and developed sulfonamide drugs in 1895 this way -- they had an idea that dyes might be connected with therapeutic properties and bulldozed their way through different combinations, concentrations, etc. until they found something.

    Nick Fuentes yesterday said he would rather die than take the flu vaccine. A deep understanding of science, or even familiarity with scientific practice, is not what is motivating the Nikki Minaj fan club.
    Last edited by McDudeski McGee; October 3, 2021 at 3:47 PM.

  2. #42
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by McDudeski McGee View Post
    My man, you're also confusing Popper and Bayes. It seems like you lean toward Bayes given you seem have to knowledge of machine learning which is really cool stuff. Bayesianism implies we need to say goodbye to falsificationism in the context of scientific justification.
    Bayesianism... just because I said Machine Learning ?! Do you know what algorithm and computation is ? It maps a set of inputs to a set of outputs. Which means, if you have just the inputs and outputs, there is NO formula to figure out the algorithm, and there cannot exist any.

    Which means we need the most efficient method to do it.

    Falsification means you dont deviate more than an acceptable error. There is ALWAYS an acceptable error, even in whatever you are calling "hard science". I hope you heard about Uncertainty Principle right ?

    And then parsimony criteria exists to reduce the costs or risks or both.

    Quote Originally Posted by McDudeski McGee View Post
    The big picture is that hard science is usually about locking down grant money and submitting papers. It isn't a debate club, not even with interpreting quantum mechanics.
    Ah so you are alleging that just because some do it, ALL of them do it ? And most importantly the researchers I have worked with, done it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by McDudeski McGee View Post
    I know it is spooky Halloween season, but should we really expect the phlogiston theory of combustion, or the caloric theory of heat, or the luminiferous ether, to come back from the grave? Einstein once remarked that the core ideas of thermodynamics will never be overturned. I think he was right.
    Sounds like you never heard about criticisms and debates about Casimir effect ? Or neutrinos ? Or black hole information loss ?

    Quote Originally Posted by McDudeski McGee View Post
    When we don't have a better theory, anomalies in practice just get tabled.
    They await better theories to be proposed which pass the tests.

    Quote Originally Posted by McDudeski McGee View Post
    I agree. Without theoretical guidance, scientists will use heuristics on the fly and just crunch though experimental possibilities. I.G. Farben discovered and developed sulfonamide drugs in 1895 this way -- they had an idea that dyes might be connected with therapeutic properties and bulldozed their way through different combinations, concentrations, etc. until they found something.

    Nick Fuentes yesterday said he would rather die than take the flu vaccine. A deep understanding of science, or even familiarity with scientific practice, is not what is motivating the Nikki Minaj fan club.
    Nick Fuentes, Nikki Minaj ?!? Where did they come from ? Is it again some allegation that I sound like them ? Or influenced by them ?

    Look, dude. You are new here. Dont try to act smarter than you are, because you arent.
    Greedy algorithms always get stuck in a local extrema...

    If you cannot determine global extrema... or if the graph (or space) is infinite, genetic algorithms give better results.

    The function space or hypothesis space is not only infinite, but in most cases, have infinite dimensions.

  3. #43
    Member McDudeski McGee's Avatar
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    Re: Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    They await better theories to be proposed which pass the tests.
    

No they don’t! Kuhn and Popper descriptively had the right idea of how science operates; they just slur over a much-needed distinction between the context of scientific discovery and the context of justification. 

For centuries, physicists did not wait for a better theory than Newtonian mechanics. The precession of perihelion of Mercury never fit the equations until Einstein developed general relativity; it never falsified Newtonian mechanics during the entire life of the theory. Scientists simply just don't toss out theories wholesale over anomalies. Sometimes the models are grossly inadequate but move the ball up the field -- think of the Bohr atom. Even today when we get beyond the hydrogen atom in quantum mechanics there is no exactness, just a bunch of annoying perturbation theory.

    Falsification is Popper's response to inductive skepticism. He thought that if theories can’t be empirically proved (I don't share his modernist pessimism), they can be falsified. His idea is not what is done in practice and it doesn't even work in theory. Ayer once imagined a logical possibility where a verification initially fails, and then is “immunized” by the failure, and all future verifications succeed. The implication is that Popper's idea becomes unwieldly when dealing with statistical phenomena compared to bread-and-butter empiricism, which is what I recommend.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    whatever you are calling "hard science"
    


    Physics is an example of a hard science; sociology is an example of a soft science.
    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    Do you know what algorithm and computation is ?
    


    Yup. I am trained in one STEM field and currently work in another. So I can talk about Hilbert’s Entscheidungsproblem and Turing’s work and other stuff grew out of it — time complexity, space complexity, completeness, automata, the work of Alonzo Church, Emil Post, Gödel, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    I hope you heard about Uncertainty Principle right?
    


    A competent person would not confuse this with statistical or empirical uncertainty. In quantum mechanics, the uncertainty principle is an inherent property of a system. The statistical test framework in contrast ultimately comes from R.A Fisher’s work. A confidence statement has the form that given a data set, an unknown quantity lies within an interval estimated from a method with such and such probability (e.g. 0.95). There’s the Neyman-Pearson framework with Type I/Type II errors, all of that stuff.



    I’m aware of the philosophical issues here too. Neyman argued there is no such thing as inductive inference, only inductive behavior, which is a genuine problem for the Bayesian from a frequentist.




    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    criticism or debates about Casimir effect ? Or neutrinos ? Or black hole information loss ?
    


    You snuck the word debates in there, but you mean criticisms and not debates. Yes, people publish papers at the frontiers of science. None of that implies that science is endless debating, especially when certain theories are backed by mountains of evidence. Fred Hoyle's theory of the steady state universe was dead when cosmic background radiation was verified, which confirmed the big bang.

    tl;dr There is such a thing as settled science. Which means anti-vaxxers who claim governments are being mean to them need a better argument than that scientific conclusions only arise from a long tedious process of scholastic disputation.

  4. #44
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by McDudeski McGee View Post
    

No they don’t! Kuhn and Popper descriptively had the right idea of how science operates; they just slur over a much-needed distinction between the context of scientific discovery and the context of justification. 

For centuries, physicists did not wait for a better theory than Newtonian mechanics. The precession of perihelion of Mercury never fit the equations until Einstein developed general relativity; it never falsified Newtonian mechanics during the entire life of the theory. Scientists simply just don't toss out theories wholesale over anomalies. Sometimes the models are grossly inadequate but move the ball up the field -- think of the Bohr atom. Even today when we get beyond the hydrogen atom in quantum mechanics there is no exactness, just a bunch of annoying perturbation theory.
    Because after Einstein developed general relativity and it outclassed newton physics, it was not "tossed out", it was put under constraints. The constraints of every day normal motion. Under those constraints newton's theories give results within acceptable error, and is simpler than relativity. Scientists dont throw babies out with bathwater.

    Quote Originally Posted by McDudeski McGee View Post
    

Falsification is Popper's response to inductive skepticism. He thought that if theories can’t be empirically proved (I don't share his modernist pessimism), they can be falsified. His idea is not what is done in practice and it doesn't even work in theory. Ayer once imagined a logical possibility where a verification initially fails, and then is “immunized” by the failure, and all future verifications succeed. The implication is that Popper's idea becomes unwieldly when dealing with statistical phenomena compared to bread-and-butter empiricism, which is what I recommend.
    Falsification means within acceptable error to increase efficiency and reduce costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by McDudeski McGee View Post
    

Physics is an example of a hard science; sociology is an example of a soft science.
    



    Yup. I am trained in one STEM field and currently work in another. So I can talk about Hilbert’s Entscheidungsproblem and Turing’s work and other stuff grew out of it — time complexity, space complexity, completeness, automata, the work of Alonzo Church, Emil Post, Gödel, etc.
    


    A competent person would not confuse this with statistical or empirical uncertainty. In quantum mechanics, the uncertainty principle is an inherent property of a system. The statistical test framework in contrast ultimately comes from R.A Fisher’s work. A confidence statement has the form that given a data set, an unknown quantity lies within an interval estimated from a method with such and such probability (e.g. 0.95). There’s the Neyman-Pearson framework with Type I/Type II errors, all of that stuff.



    I’m aware of the philosophical issues here too. Neyman argued there is no such thing as inductive inference, only inductive behavior, which is a genuine problem for the Bayesian from a frequentist.



    A competent person will also understand that all measurements will eventually end up measuring something from the physical space, which means they are always bound by uncertainty principle, but it will be negligible for any practical concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by McDudeski McGee View Post
    


    You snuck the word debates in there, but you mean criticisms and not debates. Yes, people publish papers on the frontiers of science. None of that implies that science is endless debating, especially when certain theories are backed by mountains of evidence. Fred Hoyle's theory of the steady state universe was dead when cosmic background radiation was verified, which confirmed the big bang.
    And yet, you are the one bringing philosophy and nikki minaj into conversation. Yes, criticisms which stay unresolved, start debates which lead to better theory, otherwise we would still be stuck with newtonian universe and gaseous aether.

    Quote Originally Posted by McDudeski McGee View Post
    


    tl;dr There is such a thing as settled science. Which means anti-vaxxers who claim governments are being mean to them need a better argument than that scientific conclusions only arise from a long tedious process of scholastic disputation.
    tl:dr

    There is such a thing called violence. I dont need your agreement or opinion. I only need to outwit or kill anybody who comes to forcefully vaccinate me.
    Greedy algorithms always get stuck in a local extrema...

    If you cannot determine global extrema... or if the graph (or space) is infinite, genetic algorithms give better results.

    The function space or hypothesis space is not only infinite, but in most cases, have infinite dimensions.

  5. #45
    Senior Member MGTOWFOREVER's Avatar
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    Re: Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Malinois View Post
    It’s only paranoia if someone is NOT out to get you! lol

    Certain fuckers out there are chomping at the bit, and cheering on population reduction.
    Nonsense. The vaccines started under PRESIDENT Trump and he always put Americans first.

    I'm fully vaccinated. So all the people that tell me to wear a mask can suck my dick.

  6. #46

    Re: Vaccines

    It really comes to personal choice. I'm in a similar situation as the OP. I still don't know which way I'm going to go with this. There truly is something insidious with what's going on with these mandates. It is completely illegal but no one is ready to do anything yet. As another poster said, everyone is waiting on someone else to do the dirty work. Nothing will change until things get bad enough.

    I wouldn't fault anyone who decides to get the vaccine because it's easy to be an idealist when you have nothing to lose.
    In the future there will be robots.

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    Junior Member SaranSDS008's Avatar
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    Re: Vaccines

    Well, I would take the Vaxxine, if they reverted all the Vaxxines back to the Good ol' Trad way (Development takes upto 5-10 years, but usually depends. Usually are stable. We actually develop resistance against the disease unlike "Reducing" "Severities"), and firing That Scum-bug Fauci (And if possible, arresting him for Good) for Lying about his PCR Based Vaxxines to public for ages (Yeah, and even the Creator of PCR itself is skeptical abt these newer dumb PCR based "Vaxxines").
    SaranSDS008

  8. #48
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by SaranSDS008 View Post
    Well, I would take the Vaxxine, if they reverted all the Vaxxines back to the Good ol' Trad way (Development takes upto 5-10 years, but usually depends. Usually are stable. We actually develop resistance against the disease unlike "Reducing" "Severities"), and firing That Scum-bug Fauci (And if possible, arresting him for Good) for Lying about his PCR Based Vaxxines to public for ages (Yeah, and even the Creator of PCR itself is skeptical abt these newer dumb PCR based "Vaxxines").
    Enlarged heart, blood clots, and more they're finding out every day, if you survive it, then okay, but who wants to make decisions while the negative statistics are being swept under the carpet, leave alone being extorted into subjection via threatening loss of livelihood, travel restrictions, and 2nd class citizenship with all the taxations of being falsely assessed as 1st class citizen.

    Subjugated and paying tax is a fools errand, a slave's duty, and tyranny's endeavor. Liberty, freedom, and good public order is being shredded to confetti before eyes.

  9. #49

    Re: Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    Agreed with the land part, but then again, this is not something I have much of a choice really. While I can retire right now and live comfortably rest of the life given the current situation in the country I live, I dont have enough resources to move to Carribeans, buy a house and a yacht, or anything like that.

    Which means I have to resort to a different strategy, and that is to stay alert and act PREEMPTIVELY, preferably long before anything happens. I dropped out of education system 15 years ago when there was absolutely NOTHING wrong. Everybody around me were so full of their "wisdom" and "experience" and all the other bullshit about how I am unnecessarily making my life harder.

    No, I didnt make it harder, I made it EASY. The education, the job market, and definitely the marriage, all these are shackles, and it was OBVIOUS to see. There is no need to be fkn Sherlock Holmes or Da Vinci to figure it out on your own. I am out of the system, out of the shackles. Nobody can fire me, heck nobody can even make me "ghost". I can talk about women being what they are straight to the face of the people I work with, and they will simply look the other way !!

    The thing is, this requires you live like animals live. Always alert about surroundings, always ready to run. Regardless of whatever you are doing, sometimes even when asleep. Dont indulge in the "feel good" culture of the modern middle class easy going life. That shit is fkn cancer in every way imaginable. It makes both the body and mind sick, and lazy.

    Though if it comes to the point where I feel the need to run, I have some ideas in my head, and working on them. They will be needed, probably sometime within a decade from now.
    I have similar world views. I would like to exchange some thoughts if you don´t mind.

  10. #50
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Hello_World View Post
    I have similar world views. I would like to exchange some thoughts if you don´t mind.
    Feel free to PM me on that.
    Greedy algorithms always get stuck in a local extrema...

    If you cannot determine global extrema... or if the graph (or space) is infinite, genetic algorithms give better results.

    The function space or hypothesis space is not only infinite, but in most cases, have infinite dimensions.

  11. #51
    Junior Member Jesse Custer's Avatar
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    Re: Vaccines

    I'm un vaxxed and staying that way. I'm not really a fan when the government forces you to inject something into your body.

    I believe in choice. As well as all the other theories floating around, i don't like how they are trying to force trial drugs down our throats.

    I too will look like losing my job as it is mandatory here for all essential service workers.

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    Re: Vaccines

    On the loss-of-job scenario, it would be really interesting if the people who refuse the stab got together and created a formal organization whose members refuse to work for any business that discriminates against them for the choices they've made. By discrimination I mean in reduced hours, salary penalties, promotion refusals, demotions, forced relocations, whatever. I think the timing would be perfect, in light of so many businesses not being able to find workers right now (never mind good ones). Sign up, get access to an always-current database of good guys and bad guys, send spies with hidden video cameras out into the field to overturn rocks and shed daylight on businesses that are operating in a strongarm fashion against all us freedom-of-choice citizens, similar to Project Veritas, and so on.

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    Re: Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post

    I wouldn't fault anyone who decides to get the vaccine because it's easy to be an idealist when you have nothing to lose.
    When wood products tanked in the eighties, I had a good job and would of finished my days there if I could of. But half the regions sawmills folded in about five years, mine was one.

    In the end, I did better working for Smokey Bear than I ever would of had the mill survived. But I became a 35 year old rookie, and it was no fun starting over at that age. It took more than a little good luck too, and that's not something you can count on.

    Some of us former mill rats did fine, some never did recover what little prosperity they had, and retired at 62 with reduced social security. More than a few moved away, never to be heard from again.

    You guys do what you think best. But some of you are going to loose a lot, and over not much imho. Like it or not, we're part of the system, and they got their hooks in us rather we get a lousy shot or not.
    Every day I make the world a little bit worse.

  14. #54
    Senior Member Malinois's Avatar
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    Re: Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by MGTOWFOREVER View Post
    Nonsense. The vaccines started under PRESIDENT Trump and he always put Americans first.

    I'm fully vaccinated. So all the people that tell me to wear a mask can suck my dick.
    Not nonsense.

    But, Fauci says even if you’re vaccinated you should still wear a mask.

    lol

    All of this is so ridiculous…

    There should be bodies stacked so high that they blot out the sun, on every street corner, if the fear that the media has been selling has any weight…

    The Controla-Virus is fake and gay…

  15. #55
    Member Bubbles1999's Avatar
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    Re: Vaccines

    Being forced by government restrictions to get vaccinated tomorrow, maybe I'll die or have a life changing reaction who knows. Out of my hands... Was impartial to the Australian government up until the bush fires happened, now after the handling of corona virus i see we are governed by a group of idiots. "Make the right choice!" They say while pointing a gun of fear and threat in my direction, what ever happened to freedom?

    People living in the middle of nowhere have the right idea... Not to be melodramatic or anything but this may be my last post on this forum, it is what it is.

  16. #56
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    Re: Vaccines

    Whether the vaccines are safe and effective or not, the simple fact that the politicians are now using coercive means to try to increase compliance doesn't do anything to dispel worries about ulterior motives. Do I think there are tracking devices, or harmful nano-particles in the vaccines? No. In fact, there's no way there COULD be RFID trackers in the stuff. Do I believe that adverse reactions are being systematically misclassified in order to keep them off the official VAERS database? I think that one is possible.

    Personally, I think the vaccines are moderately effective and usually safe -- but I believe the real reason behind the push is to make the "control group" of unvaccinated people as small as possible, so that long-term side effects, if they should occur in a significant number of vaccinated people, are not as easily blamed on the vaccines. Of course, there's also the motive of profit for the drug makers.

    Some of the politicians who support vaccine mandates and other coercive measures probably do mean well, but one cannot deny that such things simply don't inspire confidence about the vaccines.

  17. #57
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    Re: Vaccines

    I don't buy the notion that the current vaccines are even minimally effective against the current variant. Almost a month ago virologist / bioweapons guru Steven Hatfill stated that it's impossible to stop pandemics with vaccination. You must use early intervention (hydroxy, ivermectin, and so on). Also, the current vaccines target viral strains that don't even exist anymore. They can not "communicate" with whatever strains are in the wild today. See my post at:

    https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgto...02/#post162702

    The current vaccination strong-arming by the federal government, and some state governments as well, is designed:

    a) to get people used to getting routinely subjected to something highly invasive and dangerous, i.e. get them conditioned to accept those events as part of daily life;

    b) to get people used to carrying "vaccine papers" (sieg Heil) wherever they go;

    c) to establish a framework and master database for tracking citizens' whereabouts and willingness to be compliant;

    d) to employ "passive enforcement" to accomplish all that, i.e. don't arrest, imprison, and prosecute, but rather deny basic services each citizen needs to be able to exist (food supplies, medical care, dental care, petroleum products, legally-mandated elementary education, and so on);

    e) to falsely label peaceful vaccine protesters as domestic terrorists, using the compliant three-letter media as co-conspirators to convince the dimwitted that it's actually true, while shielding Black Lives Matter -- a true domestic terrorist organization -- from having to wear the same six-pointed star tattoo on its arm.

    Communism, plain and simple. Right here and right now in the United States.

    The virus is only an excuse, a side show, a straw man, to divert the average dope's attention away from the reality that the United States has become a communist nation with KGB-style repression. Not will become. Has​ become.

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    Re: Vaccines

    From The Gateway Pundit: "University of Colorado Hospital System Denies Woman’s Life-Saving Kidney Transplant; Will No Longer Provide Organ Transplants to Unvaccinated Patients"

    One of Colorado’s largest hospital systems has implemented a new policy that denies organ transplants to patients who have not taken the experimental Covid-19 vaccine under “almost all situations.” All organ donors will also have to be vaccinated under the new policy, and it has already stopped one woman from receiving the life-saving treatment she needs.

    Original: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...ated-patients/

    Archive: https://archive.ph/REqEQ

    How marvelously humane.

  19. #59
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by kru-kut View Post
    From The Gateway Pundit: "University of Colorado Hospital System Denies Woman’s Life-Saving Kidney Transplant; Will No Longer Provide Organ Transplants to Unvaccinated Patients"

    One of Colorado’s largest hospital systems has implemented a new policy that denies organ transplants to patients who have not taken the experimental Covid-19 vaccine under “almost all situations.” All organ donors will also have to be vaccinated under the new policy, and it has already stopped one woman from receiving the life-saving treatment she needs.

    Original: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...ated-patients/

    Archive: https://archive.ph/REqEQ

    How marvelously humane.
    That's to limit any liability like blood clots that can be blamed on the vaccine. The hospital's legal team is hard at work, they know a good scapegoat when the see it!

  20. #60
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    Re: Vaccines

    Quote Originally Posted by kru-kut View Post
    I don't buy the notion that the current vaccines are even minimally effective against the current variant. Almost a month ago virologist / bioweapons guru Steven Hatfill stated that it's impossible to stop pandemics with vaccination. You must use early intervention (hydroxy, ivermectin, and so on). Also, the current vaccines target viral strains that don't even exist anymore. They can not "communicate" with whatever strains are in the wild today. See my post at:

    https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgto...02/#post162702

    The current vaccination strong-arming by the federal government, and some state governments as well, is designed:

    a) to get people used to getting routinely subjected to something highly invasive and dangerous, i.e. get them conditioned to accept those events as part of daily life;

    b) to get people used to carrying "vaccine papers" (sieg Heil) wherever they go;

    c) to establish a framework and master database for tracking citizens' whereabouts and willingness to be compliant;

    d) to employ "passive enforcement" to accomplish all that, i.e. don't arrest, imprison, and prosecute, but rather deny basic services each citizen needs to be able to exist (food supplies, medical care, dental care, petroleum products, legally-mandated elementary education, and so on);

    e) to falsely label peaceful vaccine protesters as domestic terrorists, using the compliant three-letter media as co-conspirators to convince the dimwitted that it's actually true, while shielding Black Lives Matter -- a true domestic terrorist organization -- from having to wear the same six-pointed star tattoo on its arm.

    Communism, plain and simple. Right here and right now in the United States.

    The virus is only an excuse, a side show, a straw man, to divert the average dope's attention away from the reality that the United States has become a communist nation with KGB-style repression. Not will become. Has​ become.
    I think we should try to not pass judgement on any conspiracy theories until things develop a bit more, it could be like you say. There are reasons as to why the government is mandating these vaccinations, i don't expect much from a group of people looking out for their own interests.... Instead i expect them to make stupid decisions based on past behaviour, admittedly a negative and pessimistic view, they are approaching this like the reckless would. Why would the media/doctors fallsify statistics and manipulate data? To prevent the current panic from getting worse, very disingenuous but still in line with the type of people who are governing us.

    Avoid the vaccination unless the government is forcing you to get it, newer vaccinations will come up that might work far better and with less side effects. I get the Pfizer jab in an hour... with my health issue it could actually kill me, some things are within our power and others are not.


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