Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 51
  1. #1
    Administrator jagrmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,569
    Reputation
    15453
    Type
    Bachelor

    Military Insanity

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/13/politi...yer/index.html

    A few provocations from Russia and we're spending an additional $3B defending Europe from Russia? From what? Russia won't be attacking Europe.

    In February, the Department of Defense announced it was spending $3.4 billion for the European Reassurance Initiative in an effort to deter Russian aggression against NATO allies following Russia's 2014 intervention in Ukraine.
    How about the American Reassurance Initiative where you don't go giving our money to foreign countries for no reason. You have people who are good at taking minor matters and invoking fear in people ("The Russians are out to get us") and then justifying all kinds of wasteful spending to address this non-threat.

    For all of Trump's flaws- he sees the military industrial complex - this ability to cause average people to feel fear and open their wallets and instead wants to curtail our global policeman role. It's about time.

    It's not hard to get men to feel "masculine" for over-playing a threat and then proposing a 'robust' solution to it. And then play-act like anyone who doesn't believe you is 'weak' or 'naive'. A company I worked for had a phrase "too strong". You would say this if someone overplays a point- like saying a competitor is about to eat our lunch. Too strong- meant you're exaggerating. It wasn't a compliment. In other words, people were NOT rewarded for over-dramatizing a particular point because organizations are best off making proportional responses.

    In our military industrial complex, the goal isn't security, instead we spend to provoke which requires more spending. The goal isn't the American people- it's finding some, whatever, rationalization to get us or others to buy still more military equipment. So long as the people are gullible and motivated by fear, the m-i complex will keep rolling.

    Some of you may be wondering -- who is this Jagrmeister guy? Have a look at some of my posts from MGTOW Forums--> Jagr Archive (collection of my articles)



    Stuff I do: Box, Surf, Tennis (3.5/4.0), Downhill skiing. I lift 4x a week and have for 10 years.
    Stuff I like: Comedy shows, NBA, Reading Non-Fiction (sociology, philosophy, biographies).
    Random facts: I admire Steve Jobs. Favorite travel spots (Russia, Central America).

  2. #2
    Senior Member BeijaFlor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Chesapeake Bay, USA
    Posts
    4,145
    Reputation
    13179
    Type
    Ghost

    Re: Military Insanity

    Ike called this game fifty-five years ago ...

    Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, January 1961
    "The Red Pill is the start of the journey, not the end." - Chairborne

    "Our most dangerous enemies are men who have no loyalty to men." - William Noy

    "I am not going to sacrifice my freedom and wealth for your ideals." - Primus Pilus

    "If you can't be happy on you're own, you can't be happy -- full stop." - Wilfred

    My introduction: I Was MGTOW When MGTOW Wasn't Cool...

    My blog: Beyond The Sunset

  3. #3
    Super Moderator Mr Wombat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    5,003
    Reputation
    23745
    Type
    Neutral

    Re: Military Insanity

    Gosh darn those Russian provocations!

    Unarmed Russian fighter jets made two extremely close overflights this week of the USS Donald Cook, sailing in the Baltic Sea, CNN has learned.
    Oh. Anyone ignorant of geography (and I'd like to think there are fewer than usual on this board) should pop over to google maps and have a look at where exactly the Baltic Sea is. What a shame the article doesn't mention the exact coordiantes!

    There are often encounters between U.S. ships and aircraft and their Russian counterparts, but as long as they are conducted safely, there is minimal concern. This time, however, there were incidents that led the U.S. crew to conclude that the incidents were unsafe.
    "Waaah! It was unsafe! Someone might have gotten hurt!" What a pansy-assed thing to say! Fucking warship, guns, missiles, trained killers, and baaaw - someone might have broken a fingernail. No one got hurt - what makes you think it was unsafe? Because it felt unsafe?

    It was probably supposed to.

    That's kind of the point of these sorts of sabre-rattling displays. And the crew admitted to the papers that it worked, that they were frightened. Fuck - what is happening to the armed services? I want to find the person who wrote this and ask: "Awww! Did the crew feel all scared of the bad russian aeroplane?"

    And of course blah blah who gets to decide if an operation is unsafe or not? Obviously: the good guys. No doubt US fighters can buzz russian warships at 2 feet and it's all good, clean fun.

    Just the hypocrisy of it all. Did anyone think to ask if having a US destroyer off their coast made Russia feel unsafe?

    In an incident in June, a Russian Su-24 jet flew within 500 meters (1,640 feet) of a U.S. guided-missile destroyer that was sailing in the Black Sea near Crimea.
    Go to google maps and look at where the Black Sea is. The USA has a fucking guided fucking missile fucking fuck-off destroyer right on the pack porch of Russia, it gets buzzed half a kilometre away, and CNN is all "Russian provocation!!", for Christ's sake.

    Imagine, just imagine the response of the USA if the ruskies had anything like the US fleet in Europe operating in the Carribean. Imagine that the ruskies tried to put nukes on Cuba - actually, you don't have to imagine it. Kennedy was ready to push the button over six nukes. Meanwhile, NATO has kajillions of the fuckers right on the russian border, and is whining about russian provocations.

    Imagine that Columbia, Venuzuela, Guyana, Surimname, Brazil and (why not) Equador were part of a military union hostile to the USA, most of their hostility was actually coming from Russia over on the other side of the world, that these nations had formed "the Caribbean Sea Treaty Organisation" (pronounced 'cesto'), and that under colour of "defending" Equador from US aggression, russian warships were patrolling the international waters around the Bahamas and right up to the florida 12-mile limit.

    And then they whined about US provocation when an unarmed fighter buzzed one of the ships.

    Jesus.

    And people believe this bullshit.

    And here's the thing: it's just the same old shit. Over and over. 50 years ago, the papers were full of exactly the same stuff. It hasn't changed a bit.
    Last edited by Mr Wombat; April 14, 2016 at 12:17 AM.

  4. #4

    Re: Military Insanity

    Preventing war is too important to be left in the hands of civilians.

    Gentlemen, before we get ourselves worked up into a lather and tap out silly screeds, why don't we limit this conversation to people who are serving, will serve, or had served.

    Listening to armchair generals and policy analysts who don't know the difference between a regiment and a platoon/a frigate and a cruiser/a bomber and a fighter bomber; have never dug a fox hole and have had sleep in it; nor changed the track on a tank or charted a course through sea state 6 waters is just plain annoying.

    The closest most of the guys on this blog are going to get to actually fighting a war will be thumbs on a video game console.

    Until you understand what a jet full highly combustible fuel travelling at several hundreds of mile per hour will do to your home/workplace/life raft ship if it were to collide, please don't tell me that 500 meters is anything a rational pilot would do. At jet speed, 500 meters gives only fractions of a second to correct a piloting error.





    Last edited by sam luis obispo; April 14, 2016 at 5:22 AM.

  5. #5
    Administrator jagrmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,569
    Reputation
    15453
    Type
    Bachelor

    Re: Military Insanity

    The commander in chief is a civilian; not military. The decision to authorize budget here there and everywhere is a decision that affects taxpayers - and it's up to us whether we think the cost warrants the benefit. Of course the military wants a free hand- but it is accountable to the citizenry like any other arm of government. Everytime the citizens point out military blundering- whether ordered by civilians or the generals (military types love blaming everything that goes wrong on politicians)- there is pushback. The military has a poor record in seeing the forest for the trees; they encourage their own power and growth like any other part of the government. More power, more budget; err on the side of spending to gain advantage. Well its the role of civilians to say we have other priorities because we know the military will always prioritize its own spending (of course to the "benefit of civilians" which is the view of every government group).

    If it was upto the generals, we would practically never exit any war. Keep fighting to the last man. Their views are contaminated by their basic biases and their experience seeing soldiers of their own dying and wanting revenge. The founders were wise in not turning over the keys to the military exclusively. Every time civilians check the excesses of the military, they say "don't manage the war". We're not managing the tactics of the war. We're overseeing the prerogatives of the United States of America which is our responsibility- not the military's.

    No one is saying the Russians were justified in what they did. The baltic sea is not far from Moscow and it's most powerful critic is conducting military operations there. As Americans, what would we think if China were conducting "routine" military operations in the Gulf of California/Mexico? It is not worth spending $3B although sensationalism like this may gin up public support for such spending. Finally, per Trump why are we PAYING for another country's security?

    Ultimately and unfortunately the decision-makers on these matters are not ordinary civilians but un-elected globalist elites who have other priorities. They leverage the United States military as a golem to ensure their world order, oil concerns; in the past they were used to force trade of certain countries, ensure they could sell heroin in other countries. If the military alone decided, that may be different but they don't. This is not a matter of civilians versus military; it is civilians against globalists and their co-opted politicians.



    Quote Originally Posted by sam luis obispo View Post
    Preventing war is too important to be left in the hands of civilians.

    Gentlemen, before we get ourselves worked up into a lather and tap out silly screeds, why don't we limit this conversation to people who are serving, will serve, or had served.

    Listening to armchair generals and policy analysts who don't know the difference between a regiment and a platoon/a frigate and a cruiser/a bomber and a fighter bomber; have never dug a fox hole and have had sleep in it; nor changed the track on a tank or charted a course through sea state 6 waters is just plain annoying.

    The closest most of the guys on this blog are going to get to actually fighting a war will be thumbs on a video game console.

    Until you understand what a jet full highly combustible fuel travelling at several hundreds of mile per hour will do to your home/workplace/life raft ship if it were to collide, please don't tell me that 500 meters is anything a rational pilot would do. At jet speed, 500 meters gives only fractions of a second to correct a piloting error.

    Some of you may be wondering -- who is this Jagrmeister guy? Have a look at some of my posts from MGTOW Forums--> Jagr Archive (collection of my articles)



    Stuff I do: Box, Surf, Tennis (3.5/4.0), Downhill skiing. I lift 4x a week and have for 10 years.
    Stuff I like: Comedy shows, NBA, Reading Non-Fiction (sociology, philosophy, biographies).
    Random facts: I admire Steve Jobs. Favorite travel spots (Russia, Central America).

  6. #6

    Re: Military Insanity

    Given the lack of a draft, 99% of our citizenry has as much connection to war as we do to building rocket ships. Talk about the 99% vs. the 1%. Most of us have no real world experience in military matters. Therefore, most military and strategic advice from non-veterans is like getting a second opinion about prostrate surgery from the guy who sells cell phones from the kiosk at the mall.

    Seriously, Jagr, how would you know what a general feels? You know as much about it as a virgin does about being a porn star.
    Last edited by sam luis obispo; April 14, 2016 at 4:19 AM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Malinois's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Hellinois, USA
    Posts
    760
    Reputation
    3913
    Type
    GhostY-BacheloR

    Re: Military Insanity

    Quote Originally Posted by sam luis obispo View Post
    Given the lack of a draft, 99% of our citizenry has as much connection to war as we do to building rocket ships. Talk about the 99% vs. the 1%. Most of us have no real world experience in military matters. Therefore, most military and strategic advice from non-veterans is like getting a second opinion about prostrate surgery from the guy who sells cell phones from the kiosk at the mall.
    Well, at least you're honest...

    I have a friend that saw combat in Iraq. He calls me "Brother" and I'm not black. Perhaps I should talk to him about this. How could he know anything about my lesser "civilian" life...

    Ok, I'll stop...

    First, thank you for your service, and I mean that...

    B) Jag is asking questions that should be answered...I mean, I've been hearing about the "Boogieman" since I was a kid. Never have seen him boogie, and I don't even know what he looks like...

    4) Just because Trump is right about some things doesn't mean that everyone likes the things he's wrong about...And, we here, including yourself, all know that the truth is still truth, especially if it hurts...Even Hitler was right about some things, and a broken clock is right a couple of times a day...

    I've have known guys that have served and guys that have been to war.

  8. #8

    Re: Military Insanity

    We used to be a nation of "citizen soldiers." Now, we are a nation of "consumers" and "spectators."

    I once said to Ralph Peters, "America is not at war. The Army is at war. America is at the mall" and taking selfies, and watching American Idol.
    Last edited by BeijaFlor; April 14, 2016 at 1:01 PM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member BeijaFlor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Chesapeake Bay, USA
    Posts
    4,145
    Reputation
    13179
    Type
    Ghost

    Re: Military Insanity

    Gentlemen ... could we stick to the facts, please, and ease off on the saber-rattling?
    "The Red Pill is the start of the journey, not the end." - Chairborne

    "Our most dangerous enemies are men who have no loyalty to men." - William Noy

    "I am not going to sacrifice my freedom and wealth for your ideals." - Primus Pilus

    "If you can't be happy on you're own, you can't be happy -- full stop." - Wilfred

    My introduction: I Was MGTOW When MGTOW Wasn't Cool...

    My blog: Beyond The Sunset

  10. #10
    Senior Member Azure Nomad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    3,597
    Reputation
    16778
    Type
    Ghost

    Re: Military Insanity

    I have mixed feelings about the draft. My father was drafted to the U.S. Army even though he wasn't a U.S. citizen. However, by being drafted he was able to eventually become a U.S. citizen and he loved living in the United States leaving his home country and motherland. Had my father been shipped over seas to Asia to fight and die I may have not been born and he would have died fighting for a country he wasn't officially a citizen.

    I am definitely not a solider or a warrior. I am a cream puff and I admit it haha.

    Respect to those that have served and are serving in any military around the world. But the truth is that military conflicts in the modern era only fuel the MIC that General Eisenhower warned about not so long ago..With that said, Russia is on the ropes economically and in a way so is the U.S. so this is often the crutch both countries go back to when they want to hide what is happening back at home.

    I am impressed by the restraint of U.S. service members (balls of steel) as a jet traveling that speed and direction would have killed many people if it veered of course by a 1/4 of a meter as it approached the ship. They could have easily shot down that plane in self defense.

  11. #11
    Senior Member BeijaFlor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Chesapeake Bay, USA
    Posts
    4,145
    Reputation
    13179
    Type
    Ghost

    Re: Military Insanity

    Being a pilot myself (though not a military pilot), I have a somewhat different perspective on that fly-by. Five hundred yards is ample clearance, although it is provoking; and perspective and a long telephoto lens (or a small crop out of a big image) can make it look terrifyingly close.

    Consider, too, that the pilot is well aware he'll be the first person to arrive at the scene of the accident....

    If you've ever been to an airshow in the USA, the crowd line is five hundred feet from the stunt-pilots' line of flight. The FAA considers that safe enough, even with the Blue Angels in the box.


    ON EDIT: I found out from ABC News today that they actually flew within 75 feet of the US destroyer. That IS too fuckin' close.
    Last edited by BeijaFlor; April 14, 2016 at 7:32 PM.
    "The Red Pill is the start of the journey, not the end." - Chairborne

    "Our most dangerous enemies are men who have no loyalty to men." - William Noy

    "I am not going to sacrifice my freedom and wealth for your ideals." - Primus Pilus

    "If you can't be happy on you're own, you can't be happy -- full stop." - Wilfred

    My introduction: I Was MGTOW When MGTOW Wasn't Cool...

    My blog: Beyond The Sunset

  12. #12
    Administrator jagrmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,569
    Reputation
    15453
    Type
    Bachelor

    Re: Military Insanity

    Quote Originally Posted by sam luis obispo View Post
    Given the lack of a draft, 99% of our citizenry has as much connection to war as we do to building rocket ships. Talk about the 99% vs. the 1%. Most of us have no real world experience in military matters. Therefore, most military and strategic advice from non-veterans is like getting a second opinion about prostrate surgery from the guy who sells cell phones from the kiosk at the mall.

    Seriously, Jagr, how would you know what a general feels? You know as much about it as a virgin does about being a porn star.
    Way to address the specific points I raised....

    Some of you may be wondering -- who is this Jagrmeister guy? Have a look at some of my posts from MGTOW Forums--> Jagr Archive (collection of my articles)



    Stuff I do: Box, Surf, Tennis (3.5/4.0), Downhill skiing. I lift 4x a week and have for 10 years.
    Stuff I like: Comedy shows, NBA, Reading Non-Fiction (sociology, philosophy, biographies).
    Random facts: I admire Steve Jobs. Favorite travel spots (Russia, Central America).

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Gizzard Gulch Or.
    Posts
    2,293
    Reputation
    8988
    Type
    Ghost

    Re: Military Insanity

    Good war or bad, the "un-elected globalist elites" make obscene money supplying the military. Then they wave the flag and call themselves patriot's. Get away with it too.

    All I can say is if there's any justice in the next life they won't think their so smart. Their can't be anyone much lower than a war profiteer.
    Every day I make the world a little bit worse.

  14. #14

    Re: Military Insanity

    Quote Originally Posted by jagrmeister View Post
    Way to address the specific points I raised....
    For the most part, I agreed with many of your points, so I wasn't going to waste time addressing the ones I agreed with.

    However, everyone who brings up Eisenhower's speech conveniently forgets that he condemned the "iron triangle" of the military/industrial/CONGRESSIONAL complex. The military doesn't have any money. Congress has the money. The military can't spend a dime it is not authorized to do so by congress.

    Unfortunately, most congressmen are not veterans. Not that being a veteran guarantees that a politician or think tank gnome is actually going to recognize good military policy when it bites them on the foot. Tom Clancy was an insurance salesman who became a self-taught military expert.

    Is it too much to expect that people learn something about what they talk about before they bloviate or make policy? Yes. We don't listen to doctors about health care policy.

    It is amazing how people don't second guess the guy that changes the oil on their car, cuts their hair, does their manicure, changes a faucet on their sink, or helps them file their taxes somehow think they can second guess people that spend years and decades mastering the profession of arms. Or how people who have been in fewer counties than I have been in countries think they can come up with better foreign policy. Or how people who have never run a video rental store think they know how run a large organization like to nit pick how a navy is run.

  15. #15

    Re: Military Insanity

    Quote Originally Posted by BeijaFlor View Post
    Being a pilot myself (though not a military pilot), I have a somewhat different perspective on that fly-by. Five hundred yards is ample clearance, although it is provoking; and perspective and a long telephoto lens (or a small crop out of a big image) can make it look terrifyingly close.

    Consider, too, that the pilot is well aware he'll be the first person to arrive at the scene of the accident....

    If you've ever been to an airshow in the USA, the crowd line is five hundred feet from the stunt-pilots' line of flight. The FAA considers that safe enough, even with the Blue Angels in the box.


    ON EDIT: I found out from ABC News today that they actually flew within 75 feet of the US destroyer. That IS too fuckin' close.
    The Blue Angels are hand-picked pilots who get a lot of fuel and a lot of practice time. They are flying highly maneuverable planes that have been stripped down and that are kept in tip top shape by mechanics who are at the top of their field and not drunk on vodka and industrial grade alcohol.

    We cannot say the same thing about the Russian planes, pilots, and mechanics.

  16. #16

    Re: Military Insanity

    America borrows from China to protect Taiwan from China.

    The CATO Institute estimated that we can save about 1 trillion dollars in 10 years by pursuing armed neutrality. If it were me, I would bring the troops home. Use the savings to pay of the debt or invest in public infrastructure.

    Military spending will not decrease. Military companies know how to play the system. They don't put factories in Republican districts. They can count on Republicans spending more on the military. Instead, they place factories in anti military Democratic congressional districts. Why? Because if they hire a lot of people, the anti military Democrat will be under enormous pressure to vote for military spending. Otherwise, that Democrat will put a lot of people out of work in their district. That is why the USA spends more than the next 9 countries military spending combined.

    This is my opinion. I would not be surprised if military firms spend on world cop lobbies in order to keep the threat alive.

  17. #17

    Re: Military Insanity

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Joker View Post
    If it were me, I would bring the troops home. Use the savings to pay of the debt or invest in public infrastructure..
    For pete's sake, not this tired old argument again....

    Before you write like you actually know what you are writing about, could you answer a few basic questions?

    Compare the population of the U.S. to the number of people serving in the military. What percentage of the U.S. population is actually under arms?

    How many servicemen in that number are not full time-troops, but members of the reserves and national guard, who serve only a few days a week and couple weeks every summer?

    How many troops do we actually have serving overseas? Is it millions of people? Or could they fit inside a couple of sports stadiums?

    If, starting tomorrow, we never spent another penny on defense ever again, and applied all that money to the deficit, how long would it take to pay off the national debt?

    Is the main driver of the national debt the defense budget or something else? Some things that certain voting blocks feel they are "entitled" to get?

  18. #18

    Re: Military Insanity

    Former combat veteran chiming in.....The big criticism I have is that the military as a tool is being used for things that the military has no business being in led by personnel who do unnecessary things usually for political motivations.

    @Sam Luis Obispo - Take it easy on the non-combatants as they pay for a lot of the show, mostly against their will. They traditionally don't pay with their lives though some lose sons and fathers to the machine. I too am disgusted with the disconnect between the citizen and what they ask of soldiers, then blame them when a complicated situation is not solved in the time it takes to submit a social media "like or approve."
    because even solitude is better than evil company. - Bartolomeo Scala

  19. #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,217
    Reputation
    9525
    Type
    Bachelor

    Re: Military Insanity

    Quote Originally Posted by jagrmeister
    This is not a matter of civilians versus military; it is civilians against globalists and their co-opted politicians.
    Exactly! It blows my mind how many people, who are pretty much 100% up to date on politics and current events, have zero clue about the elites. Despite there being a transparent money trail made of blood.

    The US government, in my humble opinion, is a shadow government for the international elites.

  20. #20

    Re: Military Insanity

    Quote Originally Posted by Free and Clear View Post
    @Sam Luis Obispo - Take it easy on the non-combatants as they pay for a lot of the show, mostly against their will. They traditionally don't pay with their lives though some lose sons and fathers to the machine. I too am disgusted with the disconnect between the citizen and what they ask of soldiers, then blame them when a complicated situation is not solved in the time it takes to submit a social media "like or approve."
    I'm still waiting for someone to answer my questions.


Similar Threads

  1. Are people not joining the military anymore?
    By wool.wizard in forum Random (Non-MGTOW subjects)
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: August 25, 2015, 3:58 PM
  2. Insanity from the Year 2000
    By Unboxxed in forum Lounge
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: June 2, 2015, 7:54 PM
  3. Replies: 11
    Last Post: February 3, 2015, 5:45 AM
  4. Replies: 10
    Last Post: November 24, 2014, 1:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •