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  1. #1
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    Universal Basic Income

    I am not looking to debate the politics or economics of this policy proposal here. I am simply asking -- wouldnt this be a godsend for MGTOW? I myself am well off financially so wouldnt qualify for any UBI, but if you gave all young men a basic income to allow them a livable life, it seems like it would just hurt the family formation/marriage rate / nuclear family that much more. Of course, like many socialist policies it would probably collapse like a house of cards (either through inflation or an outright end), but for the interim years I feel like this seemingly leftist/progressive/feminist policy would actually (not surprisingly) have the opposite to the intended effect of enslaving men. More and more men would take the UBI, get a basic apartment and just get drunk or play video games daily. Maybe we should support this proposal (if the end of our system is coming, then who cares what brings it about, might as well be something that plays into our hands?).

  2. #2
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Universal Basic Income

    You mean more universal tax theft to be taken and distributed unevenly with more exploding debt put on tomorrow's tab, making circle jerk debt slaves out of us all?
    It's 1939 allover again, and we're the ones being assigned gold stars!

  3. #3
    Administrator Unboxxed's Avatar
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    Re: Universal Basic Income

    In support of your question, I found this (emphasis mine):

    Even here in the United States, a form of universal basic income has already been tested. From 1968 to 1980, the federal government ran a "negative income tax" experiment — meaning that a minimum income is guaranteed, but phased out as earnings increase. The goal was to incentivize work, but the policy ended up encouraging just the opposite.

    The program resulted in a drop in working hours across the board. Most strikingly, working hours fell by 43% for single men not responsible for a family. To make matters worse, stints of unemployment were prolonged — meaning that after someone lost a job, it took them longer to begin a new one.

    Dec 20, 2018 - Universal Basic Income: An Idea That's Already Been Tried And Failed
    The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. - Mark Twain

    The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
    - Henry David Thoreau

    There are 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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  4. #4
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    Re: Universal Basic Income

    Seems to me we already have this, in the west anyhow.

    The only difference is today it's called welfare, but welfare is a bad word, it is a prejorative term that denotes an inability or unwillingness to contribute.

    You cannot have prejorative terms these days no matter their accuracy.

    If you cannot say what you mean, then you cannot mean what you say!
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

  5. #5
    Senior Member Azure Nomad's Avatar
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    Re: Universal Basic Income

    UBI would work well for men that want to ghost.

    But at the end of the day you are not being self reliant which is probably a higher priority as a ghost. Every layer of self reliance I can build for myself becomes another layer of shielding from the shocks of over relying on .gov functioning.

    If the corona has taught us anything....save, save, save. Become debt free and find ways to generate passive income and cash flow. I have already started saving and diversifying my investments. I just need to turn that corner of becoming debt free. Becoming debt free will free up more funds which I can divert to passive income strategies.

    That is the ultimate dream of mine IMO.

  6. #6

    Re: Universal Basic Income

    Universal basic income is welfare and unfortunately, the gravy train has run out. As a ghost, it may seem like a good idea to endorse UBI. It's not.
    In the future there will be robots.

  7. #7
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    Re: Universal Basic Income

    Even here in the United States, a form of universal basic income has already been tested. From 1968 to 1980, the federal government ran a "negative income tax" experiment — meaning that a minimum income is guaranteed, but phased out as earnings increase. The goal was to incentivize work, but the policy ended up encouraging just the opposite.
    Not surprising, give people something for nothing and all it does is make them lazy. Where’s the motivation? I was unemployed for a few years recently and during that time I had most of my private rent paid, could eat like a lord, smoke and drink till my heart’s content and still had a few €’s left over to save for a rainy day. (O.K. my heart probably doesn’t appreciate the smoking and drinking but you know what I mean.)

    There were a few restrictions, but with a bit of effort they were eventually overcome.

    So why go back to work?

    I felt like I was being a sap and being controlled / manipulated / forgotten. Life became a litany of getting up, watching shit on the telly or the net while downing a few tinnies or having a toke, and going to bed. Yes I’d have a bit of craic with friends but life was meaningless; I was accomplishing nothing, zero, zip.

    But many don’t see it this way, they see a helping hand as a right and make it a way of life, they just want to take and so long as the money keeps coming they’ll keep taking and in a way I can’t blame them – life on welfare may not be living the good life but at least in this country (Ireland) you can still have something of a life especially if you’re single, and for many that means giving up on trying to improve their situation. Sad but true.

    Why work 40hrs/week for €400 net if .gov will give you about €350/week in so called benefits and your time is your own to do what you want? All you’re doing is working for the man and making him rich while you toil away.

    A tempting argument until you take into account all the other things you lose out on. Unfortunately so many today seem unable to grasp the personal benefits to earning their own way. Not only does it give you a sense of accomplishment but it also brings a structure to your life that, for whatever reason, makes you feel better. When you’re used to being busy at work that carries on to your off time, so even if you think your job is lowly in some way the benefits to your attitude can be staggering.

    When unemployed you can have too much time to think, and if you allow your thoughts to run to the things you don’t have and can’t do it can lead to depression which, in turn, makes motivation more difficult. In short, it’s a real downer.

    Universal basic income is welfare and unfortunately, the gravy train has run out. As a ghost, it may seem like a good idea to endorse UBI. It's not.
    I agree. As I said above living off the state makes you lazy, not only in day to day activities but also with regards motivation for self-improvement – why bother putting in unnecessary effort? But what you lose is difficult to quantify – lack of self-esteem, the inability to improve your lot, the tendency to turn to crime to name but a few.

    A number of MGTOW espouse self-reliance and for good reason, but how can you be self-reliant while relying on the handouts of others (The State).

    IMO welfare has its positives insofar as it can help when the shit hits the fan, but it should be a safety net at a rate that allows you to survive until your luck changes. It shouldn’t be a way of life.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

  8. #8

    Re: Universal Basic Income

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post

    A tempting argument until you take into account all the other things you lose out on. Unfortunately so many today seem unable to grasp the personal benefits to earning their own way. Not only does it give you a sense of accomplishment but it also brings a structure to your life that, for whatever reason, makes you feel better. When you’re used to being busy at work that carries on to your off time, so even if you think your job is lowly in some way the benefits to your attitude can be staggering.
    I mostly agree with this. I think work for any man is a good thing and keeps that man happy. There is self esteem associated with a hard day's work and it is a necessity of life. Where I have a bit of a problem is when .gov comes in to get a piece. For me personally, I will work had and bust my ass. I will do this but only if I get to keep 100% of the reward. When .gov comes in and shakes me down for about 27% of the reward, well that makes me feel that giving 100% effort is a fool's errand. With that being said, there are types of work that you should give 100% effort. Those types of work should be your passions. Your passions are not something monetary that the government can have a piece of. My passion is bodybuilding for instance. I will pour my heart and soul into it and give 100% because the reward is 100% mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    IMO welfare has its positives insofar as it can help when the shit hits the fan, but it should be a safety net at a rate that allows you to survive until your luck changes. It shouldn’t be a way of life.
    The intentions of welfare sound good but I don't think welfare was ever noble. Unfortunately, you can't have a system that has the possibility for abuse. I know everyone can come on hard times but there are things like charity that can help with that. You can't have a safety-net and expect people to not exploit it.

    I don't need to government being charitable with my money. No one is entitled to it.
    In the future there will be robots.

  9. #9
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    Re: Universal Basic Income

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post
    The intentions of welfare sound good but I don't think welfare was ever noble. Unfortunately, you can't have a system that has the possibility for abuse. I know everyone can come on hard times but there are things like charity that can help with that. You can't have a safety-net and expect people to not exploit it.

    I don't need to government being charitable with my money. No one is entitled to it.
    I'm not so sure. Welfare IMO probably had noble intents in its inception but just like everything else it is open to abuse.

    Welfare IS charity, the only difference is that welfare is an imposed charity - imposed on those that are earning their way, they often have no choice in the matter.

    And then you have voluntary charities, those that ask for donations. On the surface this may seem preferable but when you look into many of these "charities" the people at the top are raking in 6 and 7 figure salaries. How charitable is that?

    I don't know about the morality of such things, on the one side they are helping but on the other they are helping themselves.

    The job of government, IMO, is to do what is necessary to safeguard the population in whatever form that may take. Over time even the most noble of intents get corrupted.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

  10. #10

    Re: Universal Basic Income

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    I'm not so sure. Welfare IMO probably had noble intents in its inception but just like everything else it is open to abuse.

    Welfare IS charity, the only difference is that welfare is an imposed charity - imposed on those that are earning their way, they often have no choice in the matter.
    Yep. Let any system where there is an "honor system" in place and there will be someone to take advantage. That's why I personally think the welfare state can't exist.

    If people want to call welfare "charity", that's fine I suppose. I personally define charity as being something voluntary.

    The problem I have with welfare is that, "What if I don't want to be charitable to these people?" I don't ask for anyone else's charity and I don't like being forced to "give" under the barrel of a gun. If other people want to be charitable, I don't personally care.
    In the future there will be robots.

  11. #11
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    Re: Universal Basic Income

    Thats's basic communism, all about equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. Absolutely no imperative to improve yourself if you get it whether you try or not.

    I don't mind giving people a hand up, it's the people who think I owe them a lifetime of comfort that I object to.

  12. #12
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Universal Basic Income

    Quote Originally Posted by hereward View Post
    Thats's basic communism, all about equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. Absolutely no imperative to improve yourself if you get it whether you try or not.

    I don't mind giving people a hand up, it's the people who think I owe them a lifetime of comfort that I object to.
    What has 50 million feet, is in peril, and stands around waiting to be told what to do by the government?

    Answer: The 25 million people on the Yangtze downstream from the Three Gorges Dam!
    It's 1939 allover again, and we're the ones being assigned gold stars!

  13. #13

    Re: Universal Basic Income

    Quote Originally Posted by hereward View Post
    Thats's basic communism, all about equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. Absolutely no imperative to improve yourself if you get it whether you try or not.

    I don't mind giving people a hand up, it's the people who think I owe them a lifetime of comfort that I object to.
    Exactly. I'm a pretty charitable person. Everyone needs a helping hand once in a while. Everyone can stumble on hard times. I feel less charitable when the government is stealing from me via income taxation to give to others. That is why I personally don't give to charities anymore. I've already been forced to "give".
    In the future there will be robots.


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