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  1. #1

    Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    I have been having a thoughts lately on how one would fight against being used as a wage-slave. Tax season is here again and I have a growing disdain for income taxation. Why should you work any harder than you have to when the government is stealing from you at gun-point to give to others? Since there are no legal ways I'm aware of to get out of income theft, I was pondering this thought. Maybe I should only work hard comparable to what I actually get to keep. For example, from FICA taxes, state taxes (basically all of the money taken out of my check I don't benefit from), about 27% of my income is stolen from me. This leaves me only 73% of money enjoyed even though I put in 100% of the effort to earn said money.

    This makes me feel that I should only put 73% effort in my job. I am having the "Peter Gibbons syndrome" from "Office Space" where he "only works just hard enough to not get fired". I guess I'm going to change the original title of my thread to a question about morals. I feel morally justified to never give it 100% at my job since I don't get to keep 100% of the reward.

    I would love to hear other members thoughts on this. Am I wrong and should I "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" or am I right and slacking is a way to fight against income taxation (theft)?
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Hoppes#9's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Bonobo only you can decide the moral issue there.

    Depending on your pay structure... be it salary, commission or hourly will determine your course of action.
    If your situation is salary or hourly pay, you may could "slack off" in production and keep your job. But you may feel the disdain from co-workers having to pick up your slack.
    If it is commission based, then slacking off some will just reduce your "take home" but the Tax Rate will still be in the range of a 75-25 split... The Govt. will still get it's share.

    If you can live by 80% effort great! If you wish to give it 110% that is great too...it's your decision ,
    but either way you will not be fighting against the TAX MAN.

  3. #3

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoppes#9 View Post
    Bonobo only you can decide the moral issue there.

    Depending on your pay structure... be it salary, commission or hourly will determine your course of action.
    If your situation is salary or hourly pay, you may could "slack off" in production and keep your job. But you may feel the disdain from co-workers having to pick up your slack.
    If it is commission based, then slacking off some will just reduce your "take home" but the Tax Rate will still be in the range of a 75-25 split... The Govt. will still get it's share.

    If you can live by 80% effort great! If you wish to give it 110% that is great too...it's your decision ,
    but either way you will not be fighting against the TAX MAN.
    Thank you for the insight Hoppes#9. Yes it is true that morals are subjective. I just like to hear other people's take on it.

    Quite true that your ability to "slack off" will depend if your job can facilitate that.

    When I say give 73% effort, I mean that in the earning of money. I don't want that to be confused with not giving 100% on other aspects in life. Going to the gym is a perfect example in where you get out exactly what you put in to it. If you give 100%, you get 100%.
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    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    We're going through Soviet Union .v 2.0, your entire argument is based in moral clarity, each passing political power that happens to be, adds more and more permanent programs that become bloated, outdated, and counterproductive.

    Freedom is power and responsibility falling on the end user, the singular, meaning with that power and responsibility they are (key word) "accountable" whereas progressive socialism morphs into communism and the carrot of "reward" traded for "effort" becomes a rotten potato dangling from a string with worms falling out. At the end of this road to perdition, the social expenses outstrip the societies ability to cope with the ever growing parasitic forms of ever expanding government. The strain creates many classes of citizens in a vertical society where the laws of gravity has them shitting down on one another removing all incentive for the bottom layers that now must support the behemoth.

    Individuality and god given sovereignty is the furthest thing from their philosophy this far down the road of madness! My guess is freedom has it's seasons, and we're not in one of them, we're at the end, when the republic perishes and something else takes its place for it's natural season, growing it's healthy young roots in the carcass of our lost liberties, then rebellion and mass death and starvation has its season, and the cycle starts again. The branches of government are indicative to the branches of different species of trees, and time is the forest the trees grow in. A new tree has overshadowed our liberties and has multitudes of widow-maker dead limbs that now endanger us.

    I think that's kinda how you're feeling, I've been feeling and seeing these things all my life. Perhaps it's the truth?
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Morally justified in slacking off – what a question!

    I assume from the question that you are employed (not self-employed) and will receive the same wage regardless of effort – if your turn up, you get paid.

    I understand your frustration my friend, but for me it comes down to work ethics and where your priorities lie.

    Speaking for myself, while I have off days like everyone else I always try do the best job I can regardless of the task at hand. This has nothing to with pandering to the boss although I suppose it can look that way to others, rather it is about my own personal standards. If you stop putting in your best where does it stop? Once you start down that road you will become more and more disillusioned and are eventually going to come to the question of why bother doing anything at all?

    Keeping busy and taking pride in your work will make your working day go faster, and maybe more importantly you will be happier as you’ll never have to ask yourself questions on morality.

    As for the taxman, maybe it’s a little easier here as we have PAYE (Pay As You Earn). Taxes are automatically taken out of each paycheck so we don’t get hit with a big bill once a year, and often we can claim a rebate from the taxman at the end of the tax year. I only look at the bottom line – my take home pay. Looking at what goes in taxes and other deductions just depresses me and as there is sweet fuck all I can do about it, I do my best to ignore it.
    "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  6. #6

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by mgtower View Post
    We're going through Soviet Union .v 2.0, your entire argument is based in moral clarity, each passing political power that happens to be, adds more and more permanent programs that become bloated, outdated, and counterproductive.

    Freedom is power and responsibility falling on the end user, the singular, meaning with that power and responsibility they are (key word) "accountable" whereas progressive socialism morphs into communism and the carrot of "reward" traded for "effort" becomes a rotten potato dangling from a string with worms falling out. At the end of this road to perdition, the social expenses outstrip the societies ability to cope with the ever growing parasitic forms of ever expanding government. The strain creates many classes of citizens in a vertical society where the laws of gravity has them shitting down on one another removing all incentive for the bottom layers that now must support the behemoth.

    Individuality and god given sovereignty is the furthest thing from their philosophy this far down the road of madness! My guess is freedom has it's seasons, and we're not in one of them, we're at the end, when the republic perishes and something else takes its place for it's natural season, growing it's healthy young roots in the carcass of our lost liberties, then rebellion and mass death and starvation has its season, and the cycle starts again. The branches of government are indicative to the branches of different species of trees, and time is the forest the trees grow in. A new tree has overshadowed our liberties and has multitudes of widow-maker dead limbs that now endanger us.

    I think that's kinda how you're feeling, I've been feeling and seeing these things all my life. Perhaps it's the truth?
    That was a very thought provoking post. Thanks for sharing that. I'll have to research more on moral clarity as I don't know much about that concept. Some of your thoughts were better said coming from your keyboard that what I could articulate.
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  7. #7

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Morally justified in slacking off – what a question!

    I assume from the question that you are employed (not self-employed) and will receive the same wage regardless of effort – if your turn up, you get paid.

    I understand your frustration my friend, but for me it comes down to work ethics and where your priorities lie.

    Speaking for myself, while I have off days like everyone else I always try do the best job I can regardless of the task at hand. This has nothing to with pandering to the boss although I suppose it can look that way to others, rather it is about my own personal standards. If you stop putting in your best where does it stop? Once you start down that road you will become more and more disillusioned and are eventually going to come to the question of why bother doing anything at all?

    Keeping busy and taking pride in your work will make your working day go faster, and maybe more importantly you will be happier as you’ll never have to ask yourself questions on morality.
    Yes I know that ethically, this argument may not be agreeable for everyone. I just wanted to post what I've been feeling lately. I wanted to hear what other's thoughts are on this as there really is no right or wrong answer.

    You are right that the path to hedonism and laziness may not end if you start slacking at your job. You may spiral out of control and that's a slippery-slope. I just choose to focus 100% on things that I think really matter. Maybe I need to get a new career that requires passion. Then I'd never work a day in my life.

    I think that one could argue that being content with your slavery or being a happy slave is exactly what the taxman/ system wants. I'm tired of being feasted on because I'm working for my money and other's do nothing and get a living. I'm opting out of that as I don't subscribe to it anymore. If the government is going to steal my time/money from me, then I'll steal what I can right back.

    Thanks for the feed back good sir.
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    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post
    This makes me feel that I should only put 73% effort in my job.
    I think you should put as little as possible. If I invade your house and try to take 27% of the goods, and you have a gun, what will you feel like doing with that gun ? Putting aside legal considerations, there are chances that what you feel like doing with that gun, will end up doing more damage to me than merely 27% of my material wealth.

    My point is, when you are retaliating against an aggression, I find it morally OK to retaliate disproportionately. In many cases, out of proportion retaliation is actually needed to disincentivize or discourage future such acts. Which is why I say, you should do as low as possible, just enough to avoid any additional problems on your own self.
    A clever fighter not only wins, but excels in winning with ease. His victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom, nor credit for courage. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.

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    MGTOW is about making no mistakes against gynocentrism.

  9. #9

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    +mgtower

    This part from your post really grabbed me.

    "
    The strain creates many classes of citizens in a vertical society where the laws of gravity has them shitting down on one another removing all incentive for the bottom layers that now must support the behemoth."

    If the behemoth must exist and I can't do anything about it, I'm not going to be the bottom layer. I'll just cross my arms and become one of the many who parasite off of it too.
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  10. #10

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    I think you should put as little as possible. If I invade your house and try to take 27% of the goods, and you have a gun, what will you feel like doing with that gun ? Putting aside legal considerations, there are chances that what you feel like doing with that gun, will end up doing more damage to me than merely 27% of my material wealth.

    My point is, when you are retaliating against an aggression, I find it morally OK to retaliate disproportionately. In many cases, out of proportion retaliation is actually needed to disincentivize or discourage future such acts. Which is why I say, you should do as low as possible, just enough to avoid any additional problems on your own self.
    See this is how I feel. I don't mind "paying my fair share" but we are so far beyond that it's not even funny. When you are viewed as nothing more than a number or a cog in the machine, I feel like the system is a means to be exploited. An eye for an eye so to speak.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post
    See this is how I feel. I don't mind "paying my fair share" but we are so far beyond that it's not even funny. When you are viewed as nothing more than a number or a cog in the machine, I feel like the system is a means to be exploited. An eye for an eye so to speak.
    Yes, I am also in favor of paying the fair share. My anger or retaliation is against the act itself, not to the actual damages caused by the act. I will pay the fair share when its asked with full disclosure of all details (where the money is going), and along with full justification (that I am not ending up getting less than what I am paying in the long run). But if any of those are missing, then its robbery which is taking place, and the only fair share for them is the maximum amount of retaliation without causing any extra problem for myself.

    I have no problems if they view me as a cog in machine, a dog or a slave or anything. I dont even really care. But when they steal my property (which can be my land or my money, time, energy, anything), then I will start to care.
    A clever fighter not only wins, but excels in winning with ease. His victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom, nor credit for courage. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.

    Sun Tzu in The Art of War
    MGTOW is about making no mistakes against gynocentrism.

  12. #12

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    Yes, I am also in favor of paying the fair share. My anger or retaliation is against the act itself, not to the actual damages caused by the act. I will pay the fair share when its asked with full disclosure of all details (where the money is going), and along with full justification (that I am not ending up getting less than what I am paying in the long run). But if any of those are missing, then its robbery which is taking place, and the only fair share for them is the maximum amount of retaliation without causing any extra problem for myself.
    Exactly.

    I've heard some say that government theft is inevitable and we just have to go along with it. For me the people that say stuff like "we live in a democracy and we may not like it but that's the price of democracy" may as well be speaking Chinese to me. The tyranny of the majority does not mean "oh well, I guess I have no choice but to comply." I just can't go along with something like that.

    Yes you don't want to come off as being lazy because that'll get you canned very quick. In today's work culture, there are some jobs were it's hard to tell how much someone is working because there are no quantifiable results. Office work is a great example that I can think of. This can be the perfect place to skive. I would recommend for those to pick jobs that don't require a great deal of effort. This is especially true if you can't earn money off of your passions.
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    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post
    the price of democracy
    Democracy, especially full franchise democracy, is bound to fail. Sooner or later, the parasitic majority will learn to vote more and more benefits to them, by stealing from the productive few. Democracy incentivizes this behavior.

    This can be more clearly seen if we see ballot as a proxy for bullet. A group of men decide that instead of solving troubles with ammunition and gunpowder, they can resort to this virtual warfare we call voting. Which is why, this line of thinking, favors giving voting rights to only those who will otherwise take up arms and fight for their property, either individually or as a group.

    In full franchise democracy, everyone gets to vote. But if it comes to bullets, not everyone will be willing to do the hard work. They'll rather become slaves. This is because those who wont go to war, have no experience of war. They dont understand that even the victory is costly, which is why some restraint is necessary. From restraint I mean restraining your "voting power" to only justified use and not abusing it. They wont do it, and eventually the society will come to a point, where the losing productive few will realize that they cannot win by ballots, and must resort to bullets.

    The situation you described is exactly that. You have realized that the ballot cannot save you from legalized stealing in the form of excessive taxation. So as a precursor to "hot warfare", a more viable option for you, is to engage in "cold warfare", where you are more discrete in your actions. And doing less work is one of that.
    A clever fighter not only wins, but excels in winning with ease. His victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom, nor credit for courage. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.

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    MGTOW is about making no mistakes against gynocentrism.

  14. #14

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    Democracy, especially full franchise democracy, is bound to fail. Sooner or later, the parasitic majority will learn to vote more and more benefits to them, by stealing from the productive few. Democracy incentivizes this behavior.

    Exactly. It cannibalizes itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    In full franchise democracy, everyone gets to vote. But if it comes to bullets, not everyone will be willing to do the hard work. They'll rather become slaves. This is because those who wont go to war, have no experience of war. They dont understand that even the victory is costly, which is why some restraint is necessary. From restraint I mean restraining your "voting power" to only justified use and not abusing it. They wont do it, and eventually the society will come to a point, where the losing productive few will realize that they cannot win by ballots, and must resort to bullets.


    Winning by a ballot is no longer an option but that does not mean you just go along with the status quo. I think that showing people what they expect to see but then doing what you are going to do is a great survival mechanism in the presence of great tyranny.


    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    The situation you described is exactly that. You have realized that the ballot cannot save you from legalized stealing in the form of excessive taxation. So as a precursor to "hot warfare", a more viable option for you, is to engage in "cold warfare", where you are more discrete in your actions. And doing less work is one of that.
    You've said that better than I could. It's almost a form of passive-aggressiveness until actual aggression is necessary. After all, we all just want to survive in this world and that's all I want to do. For those that are meant to be slaves, that's fine. I actually think there are people who's lot in life is to be a slave. I can't say I count myself among that group.
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    Senior Member AdTheBad's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    I just try to keep it all in perspective such as doing the minimum to keep everyone else happy plus bank a quid or so after expenses.

    Tax?...fact of life!....personally I put it on the "good works and charity" column of the balance sheet and write it off. It not unwholey unprofitable since when the charitable come begging for funds I simply refer them to the organisations that I have the honour of supporting via taxation but also, if it turns out that God is real I shall refer the angelic key-holders of heaven to my charitable endeavours therein....citing the tax-bill.

    I wouldn't want to be known as a shirker, it wouldn't end well in my environment by which I mean that sometimes you need your word-of-mouth 'good old boy' reputation in order to survive if things go pear-shaped.
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    The red pill is about seeing the world as it is.
    MGTOW goes a step beyond and asks how can I use this knowledge to benefit me?

    So lets look at your question from this perspective.

    Your suggestion is that you are only receiving 73% of the recompense for your effort, therefore you should only employ 73% of your ability. On the surface this makes perfect sense.

    But what is the upshot of this thinking?

    Your workmates will have to pick up your slack causing resentment and getting you noticed, and not in a positive way. How does this benefit you? Its certainly not a good ghosting strategy.

    Your boss(es) will also notice and take a dim view of your lack of effort. How does this benefit you? And again not a good ghosting strategy.

    The taxman wont even notice. Again how does this benefit you?

    On an individual level you might feel a little better Im making a protest fair enough, but what if everyone employed this strategy? How would that look?

    You go out to a restaurant and end up with food poisoning because the food is only 73% cooked.

    Your toilet springs a leak and you call a plumber. He only fixes 73% of the leak sure thats all Im being paid for!

    You go to a football match and only get to see 73% of the game, after that everyone walks off the field.

    Your car develops a problem with the braking system. Your mechanic repairs the fault and tells you ah sure your brakes will now work 73% of the time.

    Your doctor, your dentist, your barman, your grocer, your taxman, your butcher, your insurance agent, your policemen, your firemen everyone you interact with employs this tactic. Just how would this look? How would this benefit you?

    As I said I do understand where you are coming from but think of the bigger picture!!!
    "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Senior Member Hoppes#9's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    When we strive to be what we are...and be the best version of it......we don't do it for the Tax Man,..friends, or some drippy ass bitch...we do this because of WHO WE Truly Are....Gents...we are the KINGS of our Domains..

    Long live Testosterone !!

  18. #18
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Your workmates will have to pick up your slack causing resentment and getting you noticed, and not in a positive way. How does this benefit you? It’s certainly not a good ghosting strategy.

    Your boss(es) will also notice and take a dim view of your lack of effort. How does this benefit you? And again not a good ghosting strategy.

    The taxman won’t even notice. Again how does this benefit you?

    On an individual level you might feel a little better – I’m making a protest – fair enough, but what if everyone employed this strategy? How would that look?
    It would look like an extremely normal workday in India !!

    The protest, if any, should be carried out in complete stealth. Sometimes it may not look possible at first, but with some ingenuity, creativity and improvisation it can be done in most cases, thnx to my society for demonstrating this to me. The stealth is needed to not create any additional problems on top of already existing problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    You go out to a restaurant and end up with food poisoning because the food is only 73% cooked.

    Your toilet springs a leak and you call a plumber. He only fixes 73% of the leak – sure that’s all I’m being paid for!

    You go to a football match and only get to see 73% of the game, after that everyone walks off the field.

    Your car develops a problem with the braking system. Your mechanic repairs the fault and tells you “ah sure your brakes will now work 73% of the time.”

    Your doctor, your dentist, your barman, your grocer, your taxman, your butcher, your insurance agent, your policemen, your firemen – everyone you interact with employs this tactic. Just how would this look? How would this benefit you?
    Because of how things are turning up in west, all those things will very soon start happening there, if not already happening. You can think of this as a cancer. Its in a bit early stage in western society, but here in India, its at a very late stage. And at this stage, what really happens is, everyone is contributing 20-30% of their efficiency, if they are contributing at all. If you try to do anything more than that, you will be mocked by your peers, and will be brutally exploited by your bosses, until your efficiency will actually drop to the level of others.

    I can understand your point. Good moral values are one of the keystones of western culture, which I very highly admire, to the point that I refuse to willingly socialize and interact with people who dont bring such integrity with them, atleast when dealing with me. That being said, I dont see anything immoral about a man trying to preserve and defend his property which is given to him by nature (body, time, energy etc). In a declining society, there will come a point where every man is for himself. Everyone you interact with, will already be employing that tactic, with much more efficiency, experience and last but not least : ruthlessness. If you try to be upright moral human, you will be crushed.

    The only way to not get crushed, is to be a snake themselves, or escape the group and work with only the like minded people (or just alone). The second option is often not possible. In a declining society, the entire society is like a crazy whore, and a deluded moral human will be like a simp. And we all know what happens to them.
    A clever fighter not only wins, but excels in winning with ease. His victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom, nor credit for courage. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.

    Sun Tzu in The Art of War
    MGTOW is about making no mistakes against gynocentrism.

  19. #19
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Here's a case of personal moral clarity in my own experience just recently, I/we just sold a house and land in a different state, I just got a request to pay overdue taxes due to town's error.

    As far as I'm concerned my corporation in co-ownership dissolved on the closing along with any vested interest, obligations, or liabilities with that town, Closed means closed, the bell rang and there's no going back at the end of the day's trading seeking compensation for their losses, I don't pay for other peoples mistakes and nor am I obligated by any outstandind agreement or contract, that corporation became extinct upon closing. In other words thy're chasing a legal GHOST! I'm not giving them the satisfaction of an answer to the contrary of their wishes. I shall remain silent and deceased as I should!

    All I can say is; Sorry Charley, you fucked yourself, don't ask me for any KY jelly for your endeavor, you're on your own!

    I could write a book on that town, too...
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  20. #20

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    These are all very good points guys and thanks for sharing.

    There have been some points made against what I'm talking about and I can see that perspective as well. After all, who wants to be a patron of someone who gives only 73% effort?

    There are others who agree with this philosophy and they've brought up some great talking points that make me feel vindicated.

    To me, I think that it makes more of a difference where and what you are doing for work. For example, I'd feel really bad if I was working for a ma and pa shop and not giving them my best. On the other hand, if you work for a place that is so bloated or is tax-payer subsidized then I don't feel so bad about exploiting the system. It's not me that's the problem, it's the system. Keep your hands out of my wallet and I would work harder. It's that simple.

    I hope to hear more insight and perspective from the members here and as I've said earlier, there's not really a right or wrong answer to skiving being moral or amoral. Morals are subjective.

    I really wanted to make this post because it's an interesting subject to me. I wanted to share how I was feeling in this matter and bounce these thoughts off you guys.
    In the future there will be robots.


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