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  1. #61
    Senior Member Opaque's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    But I must say that this comes across as the "man up" argument to me.
    Me too. I don't think Hoppes has bad intentions. But I just don't think people realise how messed up and irrational the corporate environment is. There is just so much waste, and if you try to be good and decent worker, you will not only not be appreciated or listened to, but you will be exploited.

    Best to keep your wits about and learn from the females. They have superior manipulation skills and I urge the members who work in the corporate world to employ those tools.
    A mother cannot raise a boy to be a man, not because he needs a father figure; but because she favours team vagina over her own son.

    Tradcon women are the most manipulative of all kinds of women, because they infect you with false hope.
    Radfems are your best friend, because they hate you and verbalise it - that's honesty!

    The red pill rage is a process which takes many many years - so be kind and patient with yourself.

  2. #62
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    The O.P. on this thread was about the tax man getting his oar in.

    When you take on a new job you know that the tax man is going to take an over-reaching proportion of your wage. That is the contract you enter into and to deny service to your employer on these grounds seems to me to be unduly punitive against the wrong person – you knew what you were getting into at the onset, if you don’t like it don’t blame and punish your employer.

    However, if your employer keeps pushing for more and more without due recompense then fuck them. At this point you problem is with your employer – let them reap what they sew.
    "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    All we can do is keep ourselves from all those who don't deserve it. – Dave Matthes

  3. #63
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post
    I actually like the fact that the men posting on this thread and site can have varying degrees on opinions but still have a pleasant discourse. A lot of that is lost now and discussions like this is a breath of fresh air.
    I also think, that even if we have varying opinions on approaching the problem, we do have a LOT of common ground. In this topic itself, I dont remember anyone in favor of being a slack of dishonest worker. Based on what I have known about people here, we all love honest work and honest reward for that, and would prefer a social system that does that. Nothing can be better than that.

    But that will be expecting too much from the current society and desperate times may call for desperate measures.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  4. #64
    Senior Member stanmsl's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Society constantly told me growing up directly and indirectly that working hard reaps rewards.

    At my first permanent job on the factory floor, I was that person who never clocked in late, never had a day off, always gave 100% and tried to be better at my job than everyone else.
    Ultimately I didn't get treated any differently to those who couldn't care less and turned up late with a hangover most Mondays.
    I'd do a couple of Saturday mornings overtime as a "favor" only to get pestered by management to come in every weekend while the people who said no on day 1 would never get asked.

    Ultimately being a top employee was one of the worst things I ever did in the workplace.

    If anyone wants a favor now they must do something in return or forget it.
    I'm now a middle of the road employee and rarely have any conflict with either my co workers or the management. Wish I'd been like this 20 years ago.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Hoppes#9's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Bonobo...I meant no contention in my statement at all. If any wish to...go back and reread my first comments in the thread. What I have done here is give an opinion from both sides of the coin. The first was one from an understanding(somewhat)view point....the later was from the all to common "other side" that I am sure we all have heard probably once or twice in our lifetime.

    If any were insulted please do accept my apology for that was not the intent... It is difficult at times to convey a thought to someone in person.....but a helluva lot easier to do that attempting it on a keyboard and Monitor ......

  6. #66
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    At the very beginning when I joined the company I currently work for, there were some nice perks (but I was still unable to claim benefits that other employees were able to, reason was racism, but we can leave that aside for the moment).

    Slowly, things have changed for the worse, the company is skimping on everything. We had a Christmas party which was a joke, cheap food was ordered from a nearby cafe. In previous years, we went out and had a nice meal and drinks.

    A yearly check up at the local clinic, which costs around £600, now all the sudden the clinic is "too busy" and cannot fit me into the 2020 schedule (lol, even though there is still 8 months into the year). My gut feeling is the company told them to refuse me.

    Anyway, in previous years, I used to make a MASSIVE FUSS about everything from wages, benefits etc. To not much avail.

    Now, I keep my mouth shut and just reduce my productive capacity. If there is something which can benefit the company, I don't share the idea during brainstorming sessions. Emails which could take 10 minutes, begin taking 30 minutes, clients have to wait longer for responses, and when answers are given they are vague.

    As the company encroaches more and more into my free time, and the expectations become more and more ridiculous, I slow down my work and only do a sub-par job. You have to realise that these people are parasites robbing you of your productive capacities.

    YOUR PRODUCTIVE CAPACITY IS THE ONLY THING YOU HAVE AS A WEAPON TO YIELD AGAINST THESE CORPORATE BASTARDS.

    Depending on the situation, you will have to figure out a way to deal with things, but the one thing you do not want to do is overwhelm yourself. Your post tax and expense wages has to be enough to satisfy the every day stress you subject yourself to in the corporate world.

    And please, before any fucker starts chatting shit about 'finding a new job' in this shitty economy where you can be fired for any reason, and the stagnant wages, rising living costs, it does not work. There is too much non-sense like this on MGTOW forums, like anything is possible; it isn't.

    People who work enthusiastically for low wages are the reason why the average person is fucked.
    I agree with everything you say here, but:

    I guess I’m the fucker (LOL) that recommends getting out of a shitty job, and I stand by it. But make no mistake, I recommend this not on any moralistic grounds but out of concern for the mental health of the employee, and I know of which I speak because I have been that employee. Working in a job you have come to hate infects every aspect of your life and makes it difficult to enjoy even the simplest of pleasures both during and outside of working hours; it destroys any chance you have of finding harmony in your life.

    But as you say maybe you have no choice, you’re trapped due to lack of alternatives – you can’t find better work elsewhere and I take that point. However, consider this: out of all the jobs and employers on the planet you are in the best (or only) one you can get and you choose to react to this situation by punishing your employer. Interesting!

    In conclusion, I firmly believe in upholding my part of any agreement I enter into and no more, my word is still my bond in a world gone mad. Call me naïve if you wish but it works for me – but I am nobody’s conscience, if you prefer to live your life hating the world – go for it! The world today certainly deserves no better.
    "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    All we can do is keep ourselves from all those who don't deserve it. – Dave Matthes

  7. #67
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Working in a job you have come to hate infects every aspect of your life and makes it difficult to enjoy even the simplest of pleasures both during and outside of working hours; it destroys any chance you have of finding harmony in your life.
    This is so true, cant be overstated enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    In conclusion, I firmly believe in upholding my part of any agreement I enter into and no more, my word is still my bond in a world gone mad. Call me naïve if you wish but it works for me – but I am nobody’s conscience, if you prefer to live your life hating the world – go for it! The world today certainly deserves no better.
    I also like to be a man of my word, which is why I will think very hard and take all the time I need before I enter into any kind of agreement. But, and this is a BIG but, that is "null and void" if the other person or party is involved in an irreciprocal action against me, outside the terms of an agreement. If that happens out of mistake by a single person or a small group, yes they deserve a chance to apologize and make things right by restitution (paying the damages). But if there is no apology and repetition of behavior, which is typical if the other party is a large group (corporation, government etc), which cant give a rat's rear end, then, the "word" or "agreement" is broken by them, not me. At that point, I consider the situation, a free for all scenario.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  8. #68

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    Me too. I don't think Hoppes has bad intentions. But I just don't think people realise how messed up and irrational the corporate environment is. There is just so much waste, and if you try to be good and decent worker, you will not only not be appreciated or listened to, but you will be exploited.
    No I don't think brother Hoppes has bad intentions nor do any that disagree with what I'm saying. I guess to sum it all up would be to say that you have to look out for numero uno. Even if you want to work hard, you aren't good to anyone if you burn out or take on too many tasks at once. If you try to please everyone, you please no one.
    In the future there will be robots.

  9. #69

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post

    When you take on a new job you know that the tax man is going to take an over-reaching proportion of your wage. That is the contract you enter into and to deny service to your employer on these grounds seems to me to be unduly punitive against the wrong person – you knew what you were getting into at the onset, if you don’t like it don’t blame and punish your employer.

    However, if your employer keeps pushing for more and more without due recompense then fuck them. At this point you problem is with your employer – let them reap what they sew.
    I think we agree on more than you think. I have said in previous statements in this thread that I would feel bad in "slacking" when working for a small business "ma and pa" shop. I would more than likely not do it.

    If it is a bloated, corporate or government position (where you are nothing but a number), I wouldn't feel any regret for it. Some of these places will let you go if they just don't like your face. Further, why should you (the employee) end up with the short straw while the taxmen get benefit off your excess labor and the welfare organization thinks of you as nothing but a tool?
    In the future there will be robots.

  10. #70

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoppes#9 View Post
    Bonobo...I meant no contention in my statement at all. If any wish to...go back and reread my first comments in the thread. What I have done here is give an opinion from both sides of the coin. The first was one from an understanding(somewhat)view point....the later was from the all to common "other side" that I am sure we all have heard probably once or twice in our lifetime.

    If any were insulted please do accept my apology for that was not the intent... It is difficult at times to convey a thought to someone in person.....but a helluva lot easier to do that attempting it on a keyboard and Monitor ......
    I definitely wasn't insulted and I appreciate the "spoken from the heart" nature of your statement. I think the world would be a better place if people would speak what they feel. Agreed that is definitely a drawback of thread posting because inflection doesn't come across well in text. People may take something different than how you mean.
    In the future there will be robots.

  11. #71

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Working in a job you have come to hate infects every aspect of your life and makes it difficult to enjoy even the simplest of pleasures both during and outside of working hours; it destroys any chance you have of finding harmony in your life.
    You do have a really good point here. I am getting more interested in this stoic, "yin-yang" type of philosophy. I am trying my best to keep all sorts of negativity out of my life. Active meditation via walks outdoors and exercise have become staples in my daily routine. It can be rough to block out bad energy sometimes.
    In the future there will be robots.

  12. #72

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post

    I also like to be a man of my word, which is why I will think very hard and take all the time I need before I enter into any kind of agreement. But, and this is a BIG but, that is "null and void" if the other person or party is involved in an irreciprocal action against me, outside the terms of an agreement. If that happens out of mistake by a single person or a small group, yes they deserve a chance to apologize and make things right by restitution (paying the damages). But if there is no apology and repetition of behavior, which is typical if the other party is a large group (corporation, government etc), which cant give a rat's rear end, then, the "word" or "agreement" is broken by them, not me. At that point, I consider the situation, a free for all scenario.
    I think an "eye for an eye" is a very understated and underused concept. That philosophy could use a resurgence.
    In the future there will be robots.

  13. #73

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    Society constantly told me growing up directly and indirectly that working hard reaps rewards.

    I grew up with similar values and I think there is merit to that. The hard truth is that isn't always the case. You need to decide what is worth putting forth you limited effort to reap rewards that truly matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    At my first permanent job on the factory floor, I was that person who never clocked in late, never had a day off, always gave 100% and tried to be better at my job than everyone else.
    Ultimately I didn't get treated any differently to those who couldn't care less and turned up late with a hangover most Mondays.
    I'd do a couple of Saturday mornings overtime as a "favor" only to get pestered by management to come in every weekend while the people who said no on day 1 would never get asked.


    On my very first job, I was similar. I did the absolute best I could possibly do but when I see others that do not, I think "why am I trying so hard?" The old adage of "work smarter, not harder" starts to come into play. After a while, I see hard work doesn't necessarily matter to these managers but merely the perception of hard work. Some people just need to be lied to and they're fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    Ultimately being a top employee was one of the worst things I ever did in the workplace.

    I favor "middle of the road" personally when results matter but being perceived as a top employee.

    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    If anyone wants a favor now they must do something in return or forget it.
    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    I'm now a middle of the road employee and rarely have any conflict with either my co workers or the management. Wish I'd been like this 20 years ago.
    I think that society wants to shame men in wanting something in return. I used to feel ashamed to ask something in return but I don't really now. I had a borderline inferiority complex but I'm slowly learning to snap out of that.

    Being a "middle of the road" employee has it's perks. Your other coworkers don't think of you as a "kiss-ass" for starters.
    In the future there will be robots.

  14. #74
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post
    I think an "eye for an eye" is a very understated and underused concept. That philosophy could use a resurgence.
    There IS a resurgence !!! The philosophy on which almost all (if not all) my views either originated or completely align with, is based around the idea of *reciprocity*. And reciprocity is nothing but an eye for an eye, both in positive/cooperative sense or negative/retaliatory.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  15. #75
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post
    I think an "eye for an eye" is a very understated and underused concept. That philosophy could use a resurgence.
    If eye for an eye was the way everyone carried out business, it wouldn't take long for everyone to have their eyes poked out, and not be able to conduct business...
    A man's only "safe space" be in his sovereignty, free from the illusions and misconceptions of a unity that only serves to bind him to tyranny and perdition.

  16. #76
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by mgtower View Post
    If eye for an eye was the way everyone carried out business, it wouldn't take long for everyone to have their eyes poked out, and not be able to conduct business...
    If eye for an eye is legalized, a lot of people may (or may not) lose their eye initially, but they will soon realize that irreciprocal behavior is not worth it. Its on the same lines of "an armed society is a polite society" thing. The condition is, EVERYONE (or atleast all males) should be armed and trained.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  17. #77
    Senior Member Azure Nomad's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Most people these days have two or three jobs if they are wage so it is not possible to give 100% in both jobs. I know of people that are salaried tenured professors at the college level that still run a sides business to make extra money. They too can not give 100% all in with the work they do.

    Most retail operations have high churn of wage employees because they don't care about the quality of work done as they simply need bodies and people to inhabit these stores to give the illusion that there is skilled and dedicated work in these locations for customers. With the rise of amazon and other online services retail stores are simply empty shells which is why it is operated by bare bones staff these days. Even if the staff wanted to give 100% they simply can't because there isn't enough workers to cover the duties required and the size of a retail store.

    From my view I consider work play and that is how I can give 100% while not feeling stressed out. However, if someone tries to turn my philosophy on work into a grind I will simply pull back and do only what is required but nothing more.

    The only time where it pays to give 100% or more in anything you do is if you invest in yourself or your own business.

  18. #78
    Senior Member Hoppes#9's Avatar
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    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    Very good point Azure

  19. #79

    Re: Is Slacking at Work Morally Justified?

    (1) You must advocate for yourself, not your employer. Unless you are very lucky, they have no personal bond to you and would let you go if it suited them.
    (2) If your company treats you well, there's no harm in trying to return the favour, but remember that this is a business arrangement, there's no need to keep a "tally" of what is owed. Be worth it for the company to keep you on, but don't stress about whether you're doing right by them.


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