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  1. #21
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    Not sure what that sentence means. "Self-flogging of loathing MGTOW?" Huh?
    In trying to bring balance to the insanity you're soft on resolve by saying; "There was no requirement that you had to commit to the lifestyle for the rest of your life, especially at 22, or else you didn't qualify as MGTOW. Or that you never would change your mind."

    Where's the resolve in that? Resolve is a cornerstone of GYOW, is it not? Is it not a lifetime cure for all that ales and scorns the modern man's soul?

    Going back and changing one's mind is something a practicing alcoholic would do, I honestly believe MGTOW is forever or death, whichever one comes first.
    Bundle up, boys, it's gonna be a long cold endless winter.


  2. #22

    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by mgtower View Post
    In trying to bring balance to the insanity you're soft on resolve by saying; "There was no requirement that you had to commit to the lifestyle for the rest of your life, especially at 22, or else you didn't qualify as MGTOW. Or that you never would change your mind."

    Where's the resolve in that? Resolve is a cornerstone of GYOW, is it not? Is it not a lifetime cure for all that ales and scorns the modern man's soul?

    Going back and changing one's mind is something a practicing alcoholic would do, I honestly believe MGTOW is forever or death, whichever one comes first.
    Changing your mind = alcoholic behavior? That is nuts. Changing your mind is evidence that you have learned something you didn't know before.

    Saying that "I will never change my mind for the rest of my life" at 22 years old is also nuts. It's completely untethered from reality. That's not how life works.

    Look, it's fine if you (or anyone) wants to make a lifelong commitment to MGTOW and swear that you'll never change your mind for the rest of your life. I support your right to do that. However, I disagree with the notion that being MGTOW requires that sort of lifelong commitment. That's never been a part of any MGTOW definitions I have ever read or discussed (and I've been in plenty of discussions on the topic).

    That's a different issue than screening requirements here, though. You are certainly welcome to screen members, including young ones, according to the criteria of lifelong commitment if you want to. It's your forum. But let's not confuse a small internet forum with MGTOW generally.

    For more, please read my response to Jackoff. It covers the territory pretty well.

  3. #23
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    I hear what you're saying about the way you want to define MGTOW, for the purposes of this site. I expect that you will allow me to have a difference of opinion.
    It's not for the purposes of this site. It is what it is.

    You are more than welcome to have a difference of opinion, discussing these differences is part of the purpose of this site, but as to the possibility of backtracking somewhere down the line, that’s a big NO. There’s a sub-forum called opposing views for this type of discussion.

    For example, I have different viewpoints on things like FWB, P4P, Pump ‘N Dump & PUA than many of our members and sometimes this causes debate, sometimes even heated debate, but this eventually boils down because we recognise that we all have one thing in common:

    No marriage, no cohabitation and no impregnation. EVER!

    Can some change their stance on this in the future? Of course, as Unboxxed says it’s about your stance now and not some fictitious possibility in the future. That being said I have difficulty in accepting that such people were ever going their own way, but that’s a debate for another day.

    I’m a big fan of hypotheticals in general, but this type of hypothetical serves only confusion and offers nothing other than a stepping stone back to blue pill thinking.

    If one thinks in this way it demonstrates very clearly that they’re keeping their options open with regards relationships.

    I repeat, this is NOT going your own way.

    This is hedging your bets.

  4. #24

    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    You are more than welcome to have a difference of opinion, discussing these differences is part of the purpose of this site,
    Good. I was beginning to wonder if I was guilty of wrongthink.

    but as to the possibility of backtracking somewhere down the line, that’s a big NO. There’s a sub-forum called opposing views for this type of discussion.
    Oh, okay. I wasn't aware of that subforum. I like getting alternative views. I hate echo chambers and groupthink.


    For example, I have different viewpoints on things like FWB, P4P, Pump ‘N Dump & PUA than many of our members and sometimes this causes debate, sometimes even heated debate, but this eventually boils down because we recognise that we all have one thing in common:

    No marriage, no cohabitation and no impregnation. EVER!

    Can some change their stance on this in the future? Of course,
    Right. I'm repeating myself, but it's unrealistic to ask a 22 year old to make a lifelong commitment and to say that he will never change his mind for the rest of his life. That is what you said, and that is what I objected to.


    as Unboxxed says it’s about your stance now and not some fictitious possibility in the future.
    But it's not some imagined hypothetical. It is dead set reality for a 22 year old -- he WILL change his mind, and he will change it about major life issues. It is very premature to be making a lifelong, inalterable commitment to a lifestyle like MGTOW -- especially for a kid like this, from a very conservative, traditionalist country.


    I’m a big fan of hypotheticals in general, but this type of hypothetical serves only confusion and offers nothing other than a stepping stone back to blue pill thinking.
    It's not a hypothetical. It's a near-certainty. I guarantee that this kid will change his mind about a whole host of issues between 22 and 40. If he doesn't, something has gone badly wrong.


    If one thinks in this way it demonstrates very clearly that they’re keeping their options open with regards relationships. This is hedging your bets.
    You could see it that way, I suppose, but I don't. As I see it, you don't necessarily have to commit wholeheartedly to MGTOW for the rest of your life, so help you God, till death do you part.

    Imagine a scenario where it's the best decision for a 22 year old right now. Given his circumstances and experiences, he sees it as his best option. However, he isn't ready to sign on for a lifetime commitment, because a lifetime is a long time. He's only 22. Maybe he's open to committing to it for a year or two. But heck, he doesn't don't know what the future will bring. Moreover, he doesn't have the life experience or the experience with women to really make an informed decision about an unralterable, "I'll never change my mind," lifelong committment.

    I see that person as falling under the MGTOW umbrella. He'd be toward the lighter end of the spectrum. The forum members here are on the other end, the more hardcore end of the spectrum.

    He wouldn't be allowed here. I understand that. But to say that he's not MGTOW, eh, that's arguable.

    However, I also suspect that further argument won't get us anywhere. We will just keep restating positions. So, you think about MGTOW your way, and I'll think about it mine. Cheers.
    Last edited by Eddie Haskell; October 4, 2022 at 8:42 PM.

  5. #25
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    Good. I was beginning to wonder if I was guilty of wrongthink.
    That's projection and strawman victim claiming, it only serves to spoil debate.


    Oh, okay. I wasn't aware of that subforum. I like getting alternative views. I hate echo chambers and groupthink.
    Commonalities aren't groupthink and facts being echoed isn't an isolated think-chamber, again projecting and victim claiming.


    Right. I'm repeating myself, but it's unrealistic to ask a 22 year old to make a lifelong commitment and to say that he will never change his mind for the rest of his life. That is what you said, and that is what I objected to.
    We're not asking a 22 yo anything beyond a man's resolve and 22 is plenty old enough to have resolve that lasts a lifetime, we resolve to achieve the impossible that's impossible without resolve. I don't question a man's resolve, only his level of commitment to achieve that resolve.




    But it's not some imagined hypothetical. It is dead set reality for a 22 year old -- he WILL change his mind, and he will change it about major life issues. It is very premature to be making a lifelong, inalterable commitment to a lifestyle like MGTOW -- especially for a kid like this, from a very conservative, traditionalist country.
    In conservative traditionalist countries a man is expected to slave for his wife and family and provide all her want's and needs without consideration for his, he's last on the totem pole for his wants and desires.

    This young man has every reason to desire and seek an alternative to such a miserable existence, you think it's fun to be controlled and ruled over by extended family and their expectations of you toward their daughter? One is not a man in this environment but rather a boy to follow orders in a large tribal minded family.




    It's not a hypothetical. It's a near-certainty. I guarantee that this kid will change his mind about a whole host of issues between 22 and 40. If he doesn't, something has gone badly wrong.
    The truly greatest of men knew what they wanted to be and do so as boys, and as young men they were achieving their lifelong dreams and not getting caught up in reprobate thinking and the endless flip-flopping that accompanies it. They fly like arrows and never loose sight of their target until they go through it's bullseye, relationships dull their tips and warp their arrows.

    When it comes to social expectations and demands, there's nothing wrong with saying and gleefully singing a pirate's life for me when you're 21 and can smell the salty air of freedom over the dirty filthy colliery of reality.

    Bundle up, boys, it's gonna be a long cold endless winter.


  6. #26
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    I'm repeating myself, but it's unrealistic to ask a 22 year old to make a lifelong commitment and to say that he will never change his mind for the rest of his life. That is what you said, and that is what I objected to.
    Hmm. I think if you re-read my posts you’ll find I never asked any behaviour of this young man, I merely tried to define Going Your Own Way. I even applauded those that wish to test the waters, so to speak.

    I am not out to convert anyone, I’m just trying to ensure that they are not living under some sort of misconception of what it means to be MGTOW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    But it's not some imagined hypothetical. It is dead set reality for a 22 year old -- he WILL change your mind, and he will change his mind about major life issues.
    Nope!

    Yes, over the years we change our minds about many things but it is NOT a “dead set reality” that we will change our minds on any specific issue.

    Being MGTOW is not about making a lifelong commitment, much as it may seem such, it’s about understanding yourself.

    Making a commitment, as you put it, is about limiting yourself in some way: “I’m going to do that / never going to do that because…”

    This is why I said that going your own way is not a decision that you make, it’s about understanding that you will never go back because it’s who you are.

    But you’re right in that over time many of our viewpoints change and this is natural, but usually it’s because we realised how naïve we were in our younger years, how we’d been duped into believing things that didn’t make sense.

    To suggest that the stance of a MGTOW would change over time is to suggest that we are somehow deficit in our understanding of why we live the lives we live; that there is another, possibly better way to live.

    This is the lure back to the farm and frankly it won’t be tolerated here. This is why your “difference of opinion” is coming in for such harsh criticism.

    IMO It’s good to question one’s stance on such issues like whether or not GYOW is right for you. I do this occasionally because I understand that as a human being I, like everyone else make mistakes. So far (for over 20 years) this self-reflection has only served to re-enforce my stance.



    This young man came here looking for a MGTOW perspective. Is this what you are offering him?

  7. #27

    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Ok, guys, I feel like I'd just be repeating myself if I continued. I don't feel like rehashing it again. You are welcome to have the last word.

    p.s. Woops, I have to comment on the MGTower saying I'm "claiming victimhood." No, no. I'm anything but a victim. I did feel some pressure to conform to a particular definition of MGTOW (hard not to, when you've got a senior mod and several members coming at you, screaming in bold, enlarged type that you are WRONG!). I apologize if the word "wrongthink" implied that I was a victim of some kind of ideological repression. I don't think that. Maybe not a good choice of words. Hyperbole.

    When I said I "hated groupthink and echo chambers," I wasn't accusing this forum of that. In fact, I was happy to hear there was a specific subforum where alternative views were expressed. I was talking about myself. I genuinely do hate groupthink and echo chambers. I see a LOT of it on the internet and social media, and I'm very reactive to it. My reaction is generally something along the lines of, "Fuck off." But I wasn't accusing this forum of groupthink and echo chambers. However, I can also see how my use of the word "wrongthink" in the previous paragraph might have set up a misunderstanding.

    Anyway, take it easy, folks. I'm going to check out for a while. Talk with you later.
    Last edited by Eddie Haskell; October 4, 2022 at 11:16 PM.

  8. #28
    Administrator Unboxxed's Avatar
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    there are so many ways to misguage it. That's why I asked why he believed he was suffering from E.D.
    Oh, see, here's your question to him and it read to me that it was you who was uncertain, not him:


    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    ?Well, if you’re not sexually active why on earth would you believe you have some sort of erectile dysfunction? This makes no sense to me.
    But, ok.
    The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. - Mark Twain

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  9. #29
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unboxxed View Post

    Originally Posted by Jackoff

    there are so many ways to misguage it. That's why I asked why he believed he was suffering from E.D.
    Oh, see, here's your question to him and it read to me that it was you who was uncertain, not him:


    Originally Posted by Jackoff

    ?Well, if you’re not sexually active why on earth would you believe you have some sort of erectile dysfunction? This makes no sense to me.



    But, ok.
    Yeah O.K., maybe I was a bit premature (ooh, er!)

    I guess I had this notion in my head, and still do, that E.D. is only a problem when it’s a problem.

    Within the context of intercourse it can be a problem: feelings of embarrassment. Add to that that many women will use it to demean you adding to these feelings.


    But there’s something more to this diagnosis that I find disturbing and that’s the cause-effect-cause cyclic nature of it.


    How do I explain this?

    If you think that there’s something wrong, this can cause things to go wrong. Instead of submerging yourself in the moment you suddenly worry that something could go wrong, this distracts you from the moment, dampening the effect of the usual stimuli and actually causes the effect that you’re worried may occur.

    Once diagnosed with E.D. this is almost inevitable. It must be almost impossible to use your tool without considering this.

    In effect, I guess what I’m saying is that worrying about the possibility of this particular issue may actually result in it.


    Whilst a rose by another name is still a rose I actually for once have a problem with terminology.

    Erectile Dysfunction implies a problem with the working of your junk, a worry for any guy, which as I’ve previously stated could at least have a bearing on the phenomenon.

    I think this may be intentional so as to sell a cure or a treatment or a counselling service or some such.


    The problem, IMO, lies not in the tool but in how we’ve been conditioned to believe that we should always be up for the job regardless of everything else going on in our lives. This makes no sense to me whatsoever.

    Anyhow.

    So long as there are no witnesses – intercourse – what does any of this really matter?


    But what do I know? I gave up intercourse in my 30’s and now I’m pushing 60. This guy’s only 22 and obviously still has the desire not only for sex but pro-creation. Only he can speak to this.


    Does anything in this post make any kind of sense to anyone other than me?

  10. #30
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    I think you're just looking for an explanation as to your failed life. Most people who are looking into different life philosophies are just looking for justification as to their life's outcomes. You're still young and your situation can change, so don't make permanent life decisions based on temporary emotions. Going MGTOW can have irreversible repercussions, so tread carefully. If I were you, I would work myself to be the best version and thereafter see my chances with women. If you have been with women and still you don't like it then it's time to consider other options.

  11. #31
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reformed Chad View Post
    I think you're just looking for an explanation as to your failed life. Most people who are looking into different life philosophies are just looking for justification as to their life's outcomes. You're still young and your situation can change, so don't make permanent life decisions based on temporary emotions. Going MGTOW can have irreversible repercussions, so tread carefully. If I were you, I would work myself to be the best version and thereafter see my chances with women. If you have been with women and still you don't like it then it's time to consider other options.
    Our young friend says he's from the middle east. I don't know beans about middle east family life, but our members who do, say the guys they know are all poor, unhappily married and would be better off single. It looks like the chance of having a happy relationship there is rare. If he lived somewhere else what you say might be a good idea.
    Every day I make the world a little bit worse.

  12. #32
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by frog View Post
    Our young friend says he's from the middle east. I don't know beans about middle east family life, but our members who do, say the guys they know are all poor, unhappily married and would be better off single. It looks like the chance of having a happy relationship there is rare. If he lived somewhere else what you say might be a good idea.
    Muslims live in clans as opposed to Westerners who go nuclear, that's why the lad knows enough uncles who have unhappy marriages. The lad can pay dowry for marriage thanks to the help of kin, so he can finally enjoy seggs and repeat the miserable cycle. Either he goes with his tradition and heritage or trailblaze a new path. If the lad goes MGTOW, he's going against his entire community if not his entire country, so if he really wants to go MGTOW then he must build the tools he needs for freedom (maxx physicals, maxx hustle). He must hold himself accountable for his deplorable state rn and work for the better instead of yapping about how awful his community is and looking for pity here.

  13. #33
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    Muslims live in clans as opposed to Westerners who go nuclear, that's why the lad knows enough uncles who have unhappy marriages.
    What? We “go nuclear”? Just what does this mean?

    Do some go off the deep end? Absolutely, but this is not the norm regardless of what the media may portray. For the most part we have very strong familial ties; we just don’t let them dictate our lives to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    The lad can pay dowry for marriage thanks to the help of kin, so he can finally enjoy seggs and repeat the miserable cycle.
    Alternatively he can pay a whore so he can finally enjoy “seggs” (sex). Either way you’re paying for it. Are you suggesting that he should make a lifelong commitment just for an experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    Either he goes with his tradition and heritage or trailblaze a new path. If the lad goes MGTOW, he's going against his entire community if not his entire country, so if he really wants to go MGTOW then he must build the tools he needs for freedom (maxx physicals, maxx hustle).
    We MGTOW, regardless of where we live have all faced this decision. Admittedly the stakes may be higher in some places than in others but there are always potential pitfalls wherever you live.

    You don’t need “maxx physicals, maxx hustle”, just a reasonable explanation such as I haven’t found the right one without explaining that there is no right one.

    Go pump some more iron and feed your own delusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    He must hold himself accountable for his deplorable state rn and work for the better instead of yapping about how awful his community is and looking for pity here.
    What kind of asshole are you?

    He comes here looking for advice on how to change his “deplorable state” and all you have to offer is that he’s looking for pity?

    If you want to see someone living in a “deplorable state” go take a look in the mirror.

  14. #34

    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Every married man told me to not get married. Do 2+2


    This reminds me of the quote "Marriage is like a mousetrap. Those on the outside are trying to get in. Those on the inside are trying to get out."
    Last edited by ImpishCornerstone; October 16, 2022 at 5:36 PM.

  15. #35
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post

    Go pump some more iron and feed your own delusions.

    What kind of asshole are you?

    He comes here looking for advice on how to change his “deplorable state” and all you have to offer is that he’s looking for pity?

    If you want to see someone living in a “deplorable state” go take a look in the mirror.
    OP wants objective opinions, I tried to satisfy the request.

    If you've been to the real world, men need drive and good looks for opportunities. I am suggesting maxx physicals and hustle for this. My point is maximizing your opportunities to build financial backing to be able to liberate himself from the entire community, if he wants to, and go somewhere else. In the Muslim world, you can get deleted simply for not following norms. No amount of smooth talking will let you pass the customary traditions, your advice is dangerous. I knew a Muslim princess (by blood) who ended up running to UK to escape her own father's pursuit just because she doesn't want arranged marriage. She was viewed as an outcast for not desiring to be with her own culture.

    Yes, OP is looking for pity, so a dose of accountability is the best. The thing I don't like with some MGTOWs is they blame the world around them for all the mishaps in relationships and marriages and never have once given thought that maybe some of their problems are their own doing. In this sense, accountability is also kryptonite to some MGTOW men.

    Whether I am miserable in life or not is irrelevant, strawman arguments reflect your own quality of logical thinking.

  16. #36
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    If you've been to the real world
    Yeah well, I live in a fairy-tale land where everything is perfect.

    Having read your reply though, I have a question about this statement:

    Muslims live in clans as opposed to Westerners who go nuclear
    When I read it I got the impression that you were saying it is Westerners who “go nuclear”.

    Maybe though you are saying that Muslims, who live in clans, go nuclear.

    Would you mind clarifying?


    As for my advice being dangerous, well that’s a matter of opinion and is totally depandant on his surround isn’t it?

    Which is more dangerous, living a lie where you may eventually be caught out and penalised for it, or getting the fuck out of Dodge? I made no comment about "Where" his future should lie, only that there are options.

    The thing I don't like with some MGTOWs is they blame the world around them for all the mishaps in relationships and marriages and never have once given thought that maybe some of their problems are their own doing.
    The problem lies in the fact men are all too willing to assume responsibility for the problems in relationships and totally overlook the flaws in their partners, shrug their shoulders and accept getting shat on as if it's somehow their fault.

    MGTOW don't have such problems, so how can they be of our own doing?

    Whether I am miserable in life or not is irrelevant, strawman arguments reflect your own quality of logical thinking.
    Oh, here we go. The "Strawman Argument" defense. If you see a flaw in my logic, then question it. Don't just throw out adhominems.

  17. #37
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Yeah well, I live in a fairy-tale land where everything is perfect.

    Having read your reply though, I have a question about this statement:



    When I read it I got the impression that you were saying it is Westerners who “go nuclear”.

    Maybe though you are saying that Muslims, who live in clans, go nuclear.

    Would you mind clarifying?


    As for my advice being dangerous, well that’s a matter of opinion and is totally depandant on his surround isn’t it?

    Which is more dangerous, living a lie where you may eventually be caught out and penalised for it, or getting the fuck out of Dodge? I made no comment about "Where" his future should lie, only that there are options.



    The problem lies in the fact men are all too willing to assume responsibility for the problems in relationships and totally overlook the flaws in their partners, shrug their shoulders and accept getting shat on as if it's somehow their fault.

    MGTOW don't have such problems, so how can they be of our own doing?



    Oh, here we go. The "Strawman Argument" defense. If you see a flaw in my logic, then question it. Don't just throw out adhominems.
    I see what you're saying, Jack (the post Ripper), but cut the guy some slack, not his juggler vein!

    I think he meant "nuclear family", but these days perhaps not.

    I learned early on that straw man arguments are like scarecrows in a barn fire, anyone can build a scenario to back their argument. I argue on facts and current events, otherwise my mouth is closed and my ears open.
    Bundle up, boys, it's gonna be a long cold endless winter.


  18. #38
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    Muslims live in clans as opposed to Westerners who go nuclear, that's why the lad knows enough uncles who have unhappy marriages.
    My guess is he's saying that extended family is more important to Muslims than it is to your average westerner. Might be some truth there. My mom was close to her sister, but beyond that my parent's interests pretty much ended at the city limits. It's true our family's lived far away, but there was more to it than that.
    Every day I make the world a little bit worse.

  19. #39
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by mgtower View Post
    I see what you're saying, Jack (the post Ripper), but cut the guy some slack, not his juggler vein!

    I think he meant "nuclear family", but these days perhaps not.

    I learned early on that straw man arguments are like scarecrows in a barn fire, anyone can build a scenario to back their argument. I argue on facts and current events, otherwise my mouth is closed and my ears open.
    Hmm, maybe you're right that I should cut him some slack, then again he accused a guy coming to a MGTOW forum looking for advice, probably in full knowledge of the type of advice he'd get, as looking for sympathy.

    To me this is an attempt to discourage others from coming here for advice - trolling - and thus deserves my contempt, but hey, that's just me.

    When he talked of going nuclear, I read this as over-reaction but maybe you have a point.

    "Post Ripper" huh? I've changed my type accordingly!

  20. #40
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    Re: Should I go my own way?

    According to a recent documentary, the letter sent to the cops calling himself Jack was fake. Written by a member of the London press to keep the story going. What a douche. Looks like news weenies being fast and loose with the truth is nothing new.

    Guess we'll have to change your name to Jack. Jackoff the ripper, that don't sound right.
    Every day I make the world a little bit worse.


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