Thread: Read this groundbreaking & new research paper on MGTOW

Clickbait aside, I just graduated university on the grounds of this anthropological master's thesis. During my two months long field work I was in contact with in totalt 15 MGTOWs and conducted several extended interviews, often in person. After several fun nights out with beer, billard and conversations about men and women, this is what I found. Since my findings & my approach are radically different than the usual one-sided stuff on MGTOW, it would be interesting to hear what you guys think of it and if I might have misunderstood anything. I put shitloads of work into it.

If anyone's interested in reading, here's a link to the thesis: http://urn.kb.se/resolve?urn=urn:nbn:se:su:diva-199428

Please feel free to comment, give me feedback, or start a general discussion about how MGTOW usually is portrayed within academia & mainstream media. Cheers!

Originally Posted by x2000

Clickbait aside, I just graduated university on the grounds of this anthropological master's thesis. During my two months long field work I was in contact with in totalt 15 MGTOWs and conducted several extended interviews, often in person. After several fun nights out with beer, billard and conversations about men and women, this is what I found. Since my findings & my approach are radically different than the usual one-sided stuff on MGTOW, it would be interesting to hear what you guys think of it and if I might have misunderstood anything. I put shitloads of work into it.

If anyone's interested in reading, here's a link to the thesis: http://urn.kb.se/resolve?urn=urn:nbn:se:su:diva-199428

Please feel free to comment, give me feedback, or start a general discussion about how MGTOW usually is portrayed within academia & mainstream media. Cheers!

Let's see.... you registered only today, your posting record shows you blew off your first 5 posts with nonsense in order to get your link to "take" in this 6th post. No Intro, and you offer contrast to MGTOW.

You belong exactly in our Nonmember Questions and Opposing Views forum, where you now are.

Banned from membership.

A fair piece of work. I skimmed through the main parts and focused the conclusion, which I was hoping would yield some great insights, however its nothing spectacular.

From the research paper (bold emphasis mine)>>

7.3. Conclusion

In this chapter, I demonstrated and discussed various expressions and practices of MGTOW among my informants. “The golden rule of MGTOW” forms the public expression as it aims at preventing a reproduction of previous experiences of social exclusion, which Being MGTOW showed is a big part of the MGTOW experience. Building upon my findings in the previous chapter, I argue that the internet expression of MGTOW should not be taken as representative of the whole community. Rather, through emic accounts, I demonstrated how much of my informants’ practices centered on a placement of value in oneself. Throughout the chapter, I argue that these should be seen as acts of resistance since these acts, in their eyes, oppose those dominant and established norms they feel are being imposed on them.

8. Concluding comments

This thesis’ main aim was to contribute to a rather thin body of knowledge concerning MGTOW. Seeing how all previous research on the community investigates the online content of MGTOW platforms, I wanted to nuance our knowledge about the community and thevarious men composing it, by presenting an emic perspective. My intent was not only to explore the emic perspective, but also to present the experience of being MGTOW in Sweden. This was done by conducting a ten-week-long anthropological fieldwork composed of a thorough engagement with the community and multiple extended interviews with men identifying as MGTOWs. Another aim was to investigate whether an approach like this, namely from the “inside”, would generate different empirical material than one from the “outside”.

In Finding MGTOW, I presented and discussed why my informants turned to MGTOW. Whether these paths stemmed out of a seemingly innate and natural aversion to women, mental health issues, or an enactment of a specific male behavior, it was concluded that turning to MGTOW correlates highly with feelings of disruption, tension, and frustration. Different theoretical frameworks and concepts aided me in exploring the background and development of these feelings. The subsequent chapter, Being MGTOW, demonstrated how the experience of identifying with MGTOW is fashioned by an opposition towards dominant and established norms, a perception about anti-male sentiment in Swedish society, feelings of exclusion and misrepresentation, and an intense focus on feminism. These experiences were related to a Foucauldian framework which enabled me to highlight notions of social exclusion, internal deviancy, and resistance within my informants. The last chapter, Practicing MGTOW, discussed various expressions and practices of MGTOW values. Here, I demonstrated that these are connected to my findings in the previous chapters: the “golden rule of MGTOW” aims to prevent previously felt exclusion and that the online content should not be taken as representative of my informants. Instead, with the aid of Scott’s ideas about resistance, I argue that the practices of MGTOW can be understood as acts of resistance since these acts, in their eyes, oppose those dominant and established norms they feel are being imposed on them.

My study contributes to current literature on MGTOW and the manosphere strongly on the basis of its methodology. By applying different methods than those of previous research, aimed at generating an emic perspective, new empirical findings have been presented which nuance and broaden our previous understanding of a MGTOW as a misogynist, homophobic, and pathological man. Instead of forming our understanding of “the other” through observing and analyzing certain online practices from a distance, I have shown that an actual interactionwith them can yield a completely different picture. Therefore, I urge future researchers on the topic to do the same. With this thesis, I also wanted to contribute to broader discussions within anthropology and society about understanding and perceiving “the other”. How might anthropological ethics and methods expand and nuance our knowledge about them? A first step for us anthropologists is to actually research them. In researching “the other” and people on the margins, we anthropologists tend to focus on those groups that we sympathize with (Pasieka2017). Edelman (2001) points to this severe flaw within the discipline in asking how knowledge is supposed to be generated about those groups that we do not like. Only seeking out to those arguments and ideas that confirm and accept your own is simultaneously a topic beyond this thesis and a central one to it.

The study of social groups can help anthropology confront central prejudices, contradictions, and blind spots (Osterweil 2014). Pasieka (2017; 2019) calls for a more profound anthropological contribution to the public debates by rethinking the meaning of empathy. On a similar note, Teitelbaum (2019) harshly criticizes the traditional anthropological quest for morally bound knowledge production, in which preconceived notions of “good” and “bad” prevails. What I have tried to accomplish in my study is to move away from such dichotomies by actually interacting with MGTOWs, temporarily perceiving them through their own eyes.After seeing my inner beliefs being thoroughly challenged, what started as a journey of emotional frustration ended in a grounded notion of humbleness towards “the other”. I hope that this thesis has been able to, at least to some extent, shake conventional truth claims by relating the emic perspective of MGTOW to broader discussions on discipline, exclusion, and truth regimes. Anthropology has a special force in looking above and beyond naturalized paradigms – let us not do the reverse and strengthen them.

I surfed through the document, skipping explanation of how the research was performed. Much text was the author explaining to peers that he had done his necessary study and footwork and is familiar with the same scholars as they are, etc.

FWIW:

Page 13 - the author expresses concern that the fact he has a male partner might interfere with his relationship with his interviewees (he calls them "informants").

Pages 13-14. The author interviewed 16 men in total, all living in Sweden. The majority of them were born in Sweden.

Page 59 - the author states that 14 of the 16 informants "still have an interest in romantic relationships with women and see themselves having a heterosexual partner in the future. The focal point here is not whether or not they want to pursue a romantic relationship, or which “level” of MGTOW they are in, but how they relate to a potential partner. My informants do want a romantic relationship, but with other guidelines than what the, in their eyes, gynocentric and feminist society encourages."

Ok, so these 14 guys are merely between relationships in spite of all the knowledge that they told the author. Women complain then do the opposite and these men are the same way. Wised-up guys still wanting emotional relationships with women, but doing it smarter. Purple pills, these guys. Not MGTOW. I wouldn't let them on our site. The term "purple pill" did not appear in the document.

Originally Posted by Unboxxed

Page 59 - the author states that 14 of the 16 informants "still have an interest in romantic relationships with women and see themselves having a heterosexual partner in the future. The focal point here is not whether or not they want to pursue a romantic relationship, or which “level” of MGTOW they are in, but how they relate to a potential partner. My informants do want a romantic relationship, but with other guidelines than what the, in their eyes, gynocentric and feminist society encourages."

Ok, so these 14 guys are merely between relationships in spite of all the knowledge that they told the author. Women complain then do the opposite and these men are the same way. Wised-up guys still wanting emotional relationships with women, but doing it smarter. Purple pills, these guys. Not MGTOW. I wouldn't let them on our site. The term "purple pill" did not appear in the document.

It makes sense. I hate to invoke the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy, but very few practising MGTOWs would openly sign up for such a study. That explains the 2 who actually foreswear off women while 14 are MGTOW-until-I-find-my-unicorns.

Originally Posted by johnsmith79

while 14 are MGTOW-until-I-find-my-unicorns.

This author's study supports why I say that the term MGTOW is getting diluted as time goes by, as MGTOW ages, by non-MGTOW men who adapt it to suit themselves.

The author didn't know, but he should have initially screened out those posers by asking the same two questions that I use to screen them out:

1) Do you have hopes for a girlfriend or wife, or of having an emotional relationship with a woman?

2) If a woman wanted to have an emotional relationship with you, would you let it happen?

A yes to either question gets him rejected.

Originally Posted by Unboxxed

1) Do you have hopes for a girlfriend or wife, or of having an emotional relationship with a woman?

2) If a woman wanted to have an emotional relationship with you, would you let it happen?

1.) I put no faith, trust, or expectations on women and have avoided emotional turmoil (relationshits) with them for the better part of 25 years looking forward to 50!

2.) Women that want emotional turmoil (relationshits) with me have been and will be summarily rejected and dismissed without reprieve.

1) Do you have hopes for a girlfriend or wife, or of having an emotional relationship with a woman?

2) If a woman wanted to have an emotional relationship with you, would you let it happen?

Until one can answer honestly to those two questions with concrete resolution, they have not risen to the occasion of their own destiny and they continue to live in denial. Their destiny is in the hands of another, and another, and another, and another, like a stop watch set to run forever, they go back (over and over again), using more and more ignorance and false hopes to cover the psychological stench!

I left the scene like a mouse in a haybarn fire! Going back is no different than a mouse return to the fire and walk through the flames.

Men and women are no longer compatible or symbiotic, but rather parasitic, diseased, and lethal (in the ever shifting sands of female reprobate reasoning, their unification, and the outcome).

If you're dealing with women in this modern age, you're exposing yourself to psychological toxic waste.

Originally Posted by Unboxxed

This author's study supports why I say that the term MGTOW is getting diluted as time goes by, as MGTOW ages, by non-MGTOW men who adapt it to suit themselves.

The author didn't know, but he should have initially screened out those posers by asking the same two questions that I use to screen them out:

1) Do you have hopes for a girlfriend or wife, or of having an emotional relationship with a woman?

2) If a woman wanted to have an emotional relationship with you, would you let it happen?

A yes to either question gets him rejected.

And then it's a lot of work to fish out the infiltrators who answered "no" on both questions after reading your response here before signing up, and try to stir up some shit.

Originally Posted by Resdayn

And then it's a lot of work to fish out the infiltrators who answered "no" on both questions after reading your response here before signing up, and try to stir up some shit.

If you mean I have given away here a secret, it's not like an infiltrator could not figure out how to answer them. I think any such conniver could see what I was doing. Easy to ban if they do stir up shit.

Hi guys, Sebastian (x2000) here. First of all, I apoligize if I did not read the forum rules properly before trying to create a thread.That was lazy. Second of all, thank you so much for even spending 2 seconds thinking about my thesis. I appreciate it a lot! Some comments for you who skimmed it through -

Do the narratives concerning finding MGTOW have anything in common with how you found MGTOW?

What are your thoughts about the practice of MGTOW-values as a resistance towards dominant norms?

Originally Posted by Unboxxed

Page 59 - the author states that 14 of the 16 informants "still have an interest in romantic relationships with women and see themselves having a heterosexual partner in the future. The focal point here is not whether or not they want to pursue a romantic relationship, or which “level” of MGTOW they are in, but how they relate to a potential partner. My informants do want a romantic relationship, but with other guidelines than what the, in their eyes, gynocentric and feminist society encourages."

Ok, so these 14 guys are merely between relationships in spite of all the knowledge that they told the author. Women complain then do the opposite and these men are the same way. Wised-up guys still wanting emotional relationships with women, but doing it smarter. Purple pills, these guys. Not MGTOW. I wouldn't let them on our site. The term "purple pill" did not appear in the document.

Yes, this is fascinating. Other research & my informants suggest that the online content is produced by a vocal minority within MGTOW. Some of my informants even argue that being online can be understood as still being stuck in the Red Pill Rage, or not having experienced a "second awakening". What are your thoughts on that? Also, in relation to this is the act of defining a MGTOW. I write (p 57):

"These levels or steps were often mentioned throughout my online fieldwork, especially the last one, often being understood as the epitome of a MGTOW. Academic research has also noted a prevalent preference regarding how to enact a “true” MGTOW identity (Lin 2017; Hunte 2019; Ribeiro et al. 2020, etc.).

However, my informants’ reaction to these different levels of being a MGTOW tell a different story. In our Skype-conversation, Danny scoffs at me when I mention these steps you should take in order to become a true MGTOW, because they take away the individual aspect. “If you put it down into steps, some people will say ‘Oh no, I’m not a MGTOW’ just because they can’t follow all steps. Or they act only according to these steps’”. Leonardo says that there are no steps to be taken, nor any rules surrounding the practice of MGTOW. When I ask Jari if MGTOW encourages any practical actions, he replies: “What MGTOW ‘encourages’ is an odd question. It is not a monolith. They do what they want and chose what they want. Life’s too short to guide other people”. As Danny, he ends his statement through saying that it is about finding your own way."

I find the relationship between the highly individual aspect of MGTOW and the common quest to define who is a MGTOW or not, really interesting. I guess that´s an eternal human dilemma due to our in/out-group thinking. And yes, I would agree with you that from a MGTOW-perspective, my thesis is not spectacular. However, from an academic perspective, one could argue it is (as sad as that is)

Originally Posted by johnsmith79

...new empirical findings have been presented which nuance and broaden our previous understanding of a MGTOW as a misogynist, homophobic, and pathological man...

All that I need to know....




....about the author, of course.

Hi Sebastian(x2000),

Originally Posted by Unregistered

(1) What are your thoughts about the practice of MGTOW-values as a resistance towards dominant norms?

There are 2 parts (bolded) to your question which I will address:
(i) on MGTOW-values;
(ii) the description of MGTOW being a resistance to dominant norms.

Firstly, MGTOW is a proto-philosophy, it isn't even a fully-fledged Philosophy (Philosophy noun: 2. a theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for behaviour
), that aims to prioritize oneself (the individual) to maximise that individual's happiness or contentment, through self-fulfilment and self-actualisation, while minimising binding ties to the State.

There are no 'values' as you implied, only guiding principles for behaviour: (i) Don't marry, (ii) Don't co-habitate, and one could argue that even this is extremely simplified.

Much like Mike Pence Rules, these principle guiding behaviours are intended to aid one in freeing oneself from legal bindings to the State which treats men as merely disposable tools, regardless of their personal beliefs and personal situation.

Understand that the shackles the State employs can take varied forms - as the crisis in Ukraine revealed, only women are granted completely free will - the choice to stay or the choice to flee, however a man has NO CHOICE in that matter because the State views ALL men as Disposable Slaves and will actively enforce that view regardless of the man's personal belief or situation. Only men are forcibly conscripted regardless of their personal beliefs or situation:
(i) A single man whose personal belief is in not killing others (pacifism)? Sorry, the state doesn't care, and he is forced to stay behind and fight and die like cannon-fodder.
(ii) A man who has physical or mental impairments or disabilities? The state doesn't care, he is forced to stay and fight and die like cannon-fodder.
(iii) A single father with 2 kids? Again, forced to stay and fight and die, the kids raised by complete strangers across the border.

Again, because there are numerous ways in which the gynocentric State seeks to shackle a man, hence the 'Don't Marry', 'Don't Co-habitate' principles for behaviour only covers the two main avenues whereby a man can be trapped into legally-binding slavery with the State (via marriage laws and via civil-union laws). There is a third main avenue of legally-binding ties to the State - having children outside of adoption and surrogacy usually means binding a man to a woman and the State via child-custody and child-support laws. Hence the third principle of behaviour is often: 'Don't have Children' or 'Don't Procreate'.

Understand that the main principles for behaviour are built on the underlying foundation of avoiding becoming a disposable male, a slave-provider and protector for the State, (and for women). The State is often likened to a Plantation, with men being the slaves in the Plantation.

Secondly, if the 'dominant norm' is that men are treated as disposable slaves, then MGTOWs are the slaves who choose to run away from the Plantation. I would put it to you that resistance is a rather loaded description - a slave running away from plantation is avoiding slavery. We say 'Men are AVOIDING marriage', but we don't often hear the phrase 'men are resisting marriage'. Why choose the more loaded description?

resistance: noun
the refusal to accept or comply with something.
Similar: the use of force or violence to oppose someone or something.

avoidance: noun
the action of keeping away from or not doing something.
the action of preventing something from happening.


Using the word resistance plays into the narrative of the State that would like to paint MGTOWs as potential terror threats, some shadowy organisation seeking to take up arms against the State. However, MGTOW is an individual's journey, MGTOW has no organisation, there is no recruitment. Men seeking to minimise the legal ties and bindings to the State and to women, makes those men Avoidant. MGTOW is an avoidance of dominant norms and the slave-entanglements that come with it. Losing half one's assets, being forced into a literal choice of enslavement or jail, to service a lifetime of alimony and child support, that is what MGTOW are AVOIDING.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

(1) Do the narratives concerning finding MGTOW have anything in common with how you found MGTOW?

(2) Some of my informants even argue that being online can be understood as still being stuck in the Red Pill Rage, or not having experienced a "second awakening". What are your thoughts on that?

(3) Also, in relation to this is the act of defining a MGTOW. I write (p 57): "These levels or steps were often mentioned throughout my online fieldwork, especially the last one, often being understood as the epitome of a MGTOW. Academic research has also noted a prevalent preference regarding how to enact a “true” MGTOW identity (Lin 2017; Hunte 2019; Ribeiro et al. 2020, etc.).

However, my informants’ reaction to these different levels of being a MGTOW tell a different story. .., Danny scoffs at me when I mention these steps you should take in order to become a true MGTOW, because they take away the individual aspect.

Hi Sebastian(x2000),

I wanted to leave the other questions for others to answer, however since there have been no answers forthcoming, I will attempt to address them.

(1) Do the narratives concerning finding MGTOW have anything in common with how you found MGTOW?

Having done your research and spoken to MGTOWs individually, and also having access to this forum, you should already be aware that every individual makes a journey to MGTOW in his own way, and not all journeys to MGTOW are alike, just as no two individuals share the exact same fingerprints. Some MGTOWs have been burnt by women, others have had no shortage of women but have merely grown tired of women, others have experienced first-hand their father or male-relatives forced into disposable slavery, yet others have next to no experience with women and are merely risk-adverse.

We all start out differently, and the commonality is we arrive at MGTOW in our own way, and even those who practise MGTOW's Philosophy have differences - some MGTOWs choose the route of monks, others still engage in short-term relationships with women, some others will only use escorts/Pay-for-Play. Some completely disconnect from society, some put on a face and actively mingle in society, yet others may choose to become an unremarkable 'grey man' in society.

Feel free to browse the 'New Member Intros' forum, with its hundreds (if not thousands) of personal stories and testimonials there.


(2) Some of my informants even argue that being online can be understood as still being stuck in the Red Pill Rage, or not having experienced a "second awakening". What are your thoughts on that?

This question pertains to individual MGTOWs experience (their individual journey). Again MGTOWs are all individuals, so the motivations for them being online will vary. Some choose to be online for a sense of fellowship with fellow MGTOWs, some come online to 'give back' to the community and help others who may be going through difficulties in their life, some come to network with others, some may seek male 'no-nonsense' advice as opposed to regular online-platforms which are highly gynocentric and push only female-approved narratives, yet others come to engage in thoughtful debate, yet others to philosophize, others to vent or rant, or some just come to wax lyrical or post humorous jokes or memes for laughs.

Like anyone going online, the motivations are different and entirely up to the individual, and even with the same individual, there are different moods on different days. Are there those coming online in rage? Sure, pick a day when someone is in a bad mood, maybe because his ex-wife refused to let him see his kids even though he had visitation rights that day, he comes online and rages. Is that red-pill rage? I would argue no, he's angry at a specific set of circumstances. Trying to paint every MGTOW who is online as being stuck on red-pilled rage is a dishonest exercise.

(3) Levels in relation to the act of defining a MGTOW

There are no 'levels' to being MGTOW in my view (and there might be some MGTOWs who disagree, because again MGTOWs are individuals and individuals have varied opinions).

These so-called 'levels' are an artifact attempting to describe the level of disengagement that person has from society and one can find similar neologisms in Koreans who give up on the 'big 3', marriage, courtship and childbirth (termed Sampo sedae), and those who take their disengagement further and give up on employment and home ownership (termed Opo sedae), etc. See: Sampo generation - Wikipedia to get the full picture - they have many more 'levels' than that.

In my opinion, once one abides with MGTOW's Philosophy which essentially boils down to 'living my own life, without committing to women', such a person is going their own way and he is MGTOW even if he is unaware of the term and has never heard of MGTOW in his life.

Beyond that Philosophy, if he chooses to completely live in the woods like a hermit and disengage from society that is his choice, and if he chooses to live a high-socialising, pump-and-dump Bachelor life, that is also his choice.

MGTOW's Philosophy doesn't dictate how one should live, unlike the State which likes to dictate expectations on men, MGTOW is an individual choice; it is freedom for a man - what he wants to do and how he wants to live HIS life in his most fulfilling way. And naturally, as individuals, one MGTOW's way will be very different from another MGTOW's way, just as one person may like chocolate, while another may like vanilla, yes there are differences, but one is either MGTOW or not. There are no 'levels' to being MGTOW.

Its a shame how people feel the need to dilute MGTOW into something else. I'm not sure why - its not like we're popular and there's any coat-tails to ride on. Diverting desperate, young and less-informed men into a path where they're more easily used I suppose.

The standards of MGTOW aren't unclear or even that hard. Don't cohabitate. Don't marry. Don't impregnate.

The only upside is that usually descriptions of MGTOW are so poorly given by lame-stream media that its obvious, even to the unaware. This piece, whilst I agree with the criticisms, has done a better job than most of pretending to be a proper insight into MGTOW. That's bad as it means confused men are more likely to fall for it.

Still, any man with the potential to learn will in the end. The easy way or the hard way, the lessons don't stop.

An interesting thread!

If I may put my tuppence-worth in:

This guy x2000 (or Sebastian or whatever) seems quite genuine but is wholly misguided.

He is the epitome of the gynocentric world that seeks to impose itself. He doesn’t seek understanding, he wishes to put us in to nice little boxes but employs the ruse of trying to understand to accomplish his goal. He is the enemy, not just to MGTOW but to individualism itself.

Everything must be understood. A laudable goal, but only on the surface. Underneath what he is truly saying that everyone and every behaviour must be ranked, filed and put to use for the common good.

The problem with this is that those that are defining “the common good” today are the problem and not the cure. They are the overlords, the politicians, the megacorps and they have all been infected with notions of equality which are anything but.

Interacting with people like this on their terms is only feeding those that seek to control.

Hey Seb, you want to know why people like us identify as MGTOW?

Because we’re sick and tired of being told how to act and even how to think by sycophantic people that think that they know what’s best for us and try to impose themselves and their views on every bloody decision we make.

Enter woman: the epitome of the control freak.

Jackoff.

I want the name of the movie :P