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  1. #1
    Tarnished
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    A response to the thread

    Hey, all.
    Was looking through the archives researching MGTOW + it's level of acceptance toward homosexual males, and found this thread:

    I read the entire conversation and thought it was a good discussion. Very little derailment, as is unfortunately typical with such topics. One comment caught my eye though, and I'd like to reply to it here. It was by member Ace Francis, and the relevant parts I'm responding to are copied below;

    Now as for the so-called transgender thing, spot-on indeed you are, Jagr. It is NOT "brave." INSTEAD it's a fucking joke! ESPN, who lost my respect years ago, decided to give Bruce Jenner a courage award. What a bunch of 21st century propaganda!
    First off, I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. Caitlyn Jenner is not "brave"...she is just trans and, far more importantly, famous and wealthy. It takes little courage to spend a shit-ton of money to get the best surgeries/cosmetics and therefore pass as a woman with a very high degree of success. Comparing her to normal MtF people, who generally can't afford most (if any) of the resources she has unlimited access to is disgusting.

    Sorry, but gender and race is NOT a social construct! That's just retreaded feminazi NONSENSE. Delusional LIES!
    On the other hand, transgenderism is total bullshit! It's a lame denial of who one is. You are who you were born as. END OF STORY.
    I also agree with this, which is ironic since I have gender dysphoria (I have a female body but masculine brain) and seems Ace Francis is arguing against it. I've written numerous posts about being g.d. at my blog (link at the bottom), and though a handful of male commenters had been of a strong opposing opinion, the majority of naysayers...who argued that gender dysphoria/transgender is unnatural, wrong, or stupid...were Feminists.

    Obviously I am *not* saying that Ace is anything like a Fem. He's absolutely not.

    But his 2 quotes above are incredibly contradictory. Perhaps he (and others) don't know this, but the overwhelming majority of transfolk and people with g.d. agree that gender is not a social construct. We KNOW it is not, because we are PROOF it is biological in origin. If ones gender identity was purely Nurture over Nature, we wouldn't have any transfolk whatsoever, because a girl raised as a girl or a boy raised as a boy would be 100% accepting of their gender matching their sex. But for a very small segment of the population, this doesn't occur. Why?

    Well, I've written about it again recently, so I'm just going to copy-paste the explanation:

    What about trans-brains?
    So with all these drastic differences, how would a trans person come to be? It very likely has to do with the timing of androgen release in the fetal body. In the first 6-12 weeks of pregnancy, a defemininization process will occur if there is an influx of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone, which creates male body parts like the penis, prostate, and testes. If these are absent, the fetus will continue to grow as a female. However, significant brain development doesn’t occur until weeks 19-23…far after the genitals and majority of the body are already fully developed.

    Thus, if there is a continued influx of either testosterone or estrogen into an opposite sexed baby during this time, such hormones will *only* be able to alter the brain. This is how one can be a person like myself who has the outer look of a female but with a masculine-typed brain structure, and vice versa. It’s important to note that this doesn’t appear in a significant portion of the population though, and studies suggest it only affects .03% of us.
    If anyone wants to read the entire post, which was a discussion of the structural differences between male and female brains, it's here: https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/20...-in-your-head/

    Anyway, as one can see, being gender dysphoric and/or trans is biologically based. Claiming, as Fems do, with their idiotic and unscientific "infants are blank slates" ideology is a disservice to not only the trans community but to regular men and women as well. A female brain has many structural differences to a male brain, and vice versa. Though I don't think they should be used to condemn either sex as inferior...the fact remains that they *are* there.

    These differences alter the way we interact with the world around us, how we relate to others, our libidos and sexuality, and even how we solve everything from mathematical equations to navigation of a new town. They are something the sexes are born with, and it just so happens that every once in a great while, a female comes out with a masculine-typed brain or a male has a female-typed brain. That Male-to-Female transfolk outnumber us Female-to-Males at a 3:1 ratio is also no surprise, given the sheer amount of estrogenic xenohormones (like BPA or PCB) found in many plastics, most notably water bottles, today that can leech through into the fetal bloodstream. Given this, it's almost strange how there aren't more transwomen around.

    Are there trans people who are attention whores? Who act stupid, loud, arrogant, and have a fucked up SJW mentality akin to some of the gay population?
    Yeah, they exist, as much as I and others like me wish they didn't (see the fallout from Gamergate).
    And are there transwomen who try to trick straight men into sleeping with them, or calling them "transphobic" if they don't?
    Yup, and they are horrible people in my opinion, because everyone should know both the mindset and body type of the person they're about to have sex with.

    A cock is a cock, and a pussy is a pussy...sorry, but there's no changing that particular fact. I may have a male brain and corresponding libido, but at the end of the day, when I'm on top of my FwB he's still the one with the actual penis. To deny this is to delve into the alternative "reality" of Fems and SJWs (well, except for TERFs, the Fems who want to kill off, castrate, or jail all transfolk since we're all "perverts").

    So, Ace Francis, if you're reading this, I agree with you that "You are who you were born as". It's simply that, for a few thousand of us, that means being born with a brain that didn't match our body.

    It doesn't mean we are unnatural, anymore than ADHD or colorblindness is unnatural, because it was Nature that screwed up in the first place.
    It doesn't mean we're perverts trying to get into opposite sex bathrooms to sneak peeks at other people's genitals, since most of us either pass so well you wouldn't know our real sex anyway *or* we can't pass and just use gender-neutral restrooms whenever possible + the bathroom our sex dictates.
    It doesn't mean all of us want to be the center of SJW-style attention (most of us do not).
    And it certainly doesn't mean that we agree with the idiotic parents who think transgenderism is some Gods-forsaken fad that they can force their normal children into.

    It just means we are people like you, trying to live as best we can with the cards we were dealt in the womb.

    https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.co...&submit=Search

  2. #2
    Senior Member BeijaFlor's Avatar
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    Re: A response to the thread

    I'm glad to hear from you, Tarnished. You always seem to bring good data, reason and logic to the discussion. And when I read the popular-press arguments over transgenderism - the damn-fool looniness on both sides - I often wonder what you make of it.

    (Had to do some digging to find the thread you quoted: Annoyances with gays, others)

    As for Ace's quotes, I can only give my 'take' on it ... to me, it appears that he was reacting to the media-circus codswallop that was circling Caitlyn Jenner's conversion to trans-womanhood. I'm not defending Ace, but I'm not surprised at the contradiction; I doubt if he's ever given thought to what gender dysphoria is like from the inside. (I think I may have an inkling, at least, or maybe that's just compassion talking.)

    Your fetal brain-chemistry explanation is fascinating, and makes sense. We are doing more than we know to screw up the food-supply, with hormones (rBST comes to mind) and hormone-analogues (such as the BPA and PCB you mention); maybe that is part of the rise of these situations. (Though it might just be that earlier generations, living in a more rigid culture, had more force put on them to "live their genitals," as I might put it.)

    Hope we can get more of a dialogue, and cast some light on the questions ...

    And, again, it's great to see you back.
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    Re: A response to the thread

    There's evidence that whatever has been labelled as "gender dysphoria" may often just be a mental illness presenting itself as gender dysphoria, but not necessarily actually being gd. Either way, the high suicide rates make me think that having the operation is definitely not the solution. I have to say I'm not familiar with the FtM operation process, but I imagine it's ... less invasive? In the case of MtF operation, it is an irreversible operation - although this might change in the future, as apparently a "penis transplant" is now possible.
    What I find profoundly sick and disgusting is when little kids are used for some SJW ideology and a boy gets inhibited in his growth just because he liked dolls more than trucks.
    As for the "trans-brains" ... while it may sound plausible, the article cannot be credible without a sufficient amount of references supporting its validity.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator Mr Wombat's Avatar
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    Re: A response to the thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
    Perhaps he (and others) don't know this, but the overwhelming majority of transfolk and people with g.d. agree that gender is not a social construct. We KNOW it is not, because we are PROOF it is biological in origin. If ones gender identity was purely Nurture over Nature, we wouldn't have any transfolk whatsoever, because a girl raised as a girl or a boy raised as a boy would be 100% accepting of their gender matching their sex. But for a very small segment of the population, this doesn't occur. Why?
    Because birth and developmental defects happen, that's why. Sorry. Pretty much anything that can go wrong with a developing person in-utero does go wrong occasionally. Sexuality is delicate and complex, and is one thing that dear old mother nature occasionally screws up. (personally, I think paedophillia is also a developmental defect).

    This does not mean that transgenderism is "normal". To argue that because it happens naturally, it's normal is like arguing that because toadstools are natural, they must be safe to eat.

    -- EDIT -- actually, reading your reply further, I see that you reach this same conclusion.

    The question is: so what?

    Well, in a sane society we would just deal with this: transgendered people use the disabled toilet, job done. But society is not sane. A host of agendas have been larded onto this issue.

    As I see you also realise, those people - the SJWs - are not allies. They are a political movement whose goal is political power.

    The horror over transgenderism is as backward and peasant as making the sign of the cross when you see a six-fingered man. It's just so fucking dark-age superstitious ignorant: you can't reason with these people. Maybe everyone is wrong: the solution isn't education, the solution is ridicule. People that believe in devils, you can't really make them not believe in devils. All you can do is make fun of 'em to the point that other people aren't going to start going "Hmm, you know, this devil business makes a lot of sense".

  5. #5
    Tarnished
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    Re: A response to the thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BeijaFlor View Post
    I'm glad to hear from you, Tarnished. You always seem to bring good data, reason and logic to the discussion. And when I read the popular-press arguments over transgenderism - the damn-fool looniness on both sides - I often wonder what you make of it.
    I think the mass media is a bunch of clowns, as usual. They enjoy spinning stupid ass, wild opinions that fly off the frickin rail. But then, most members here already knew that the MSM isn't to be trusted to tell the truth.

    For example, the huge issue right now is the whole "oh my god, gender-neutral bathrooms are literally the devil won't somebody think of teh childrens". Meanwhile, I am 32 and attended college from age 18-21, and we had a gender-neutral bathroom on every other floor of most buildings, which means they were built before I got there. I used them whenever possible, and never once had a problem with the other occupants, whether they were male or female. Never heard about anything bad happening either. It's not a new concept, to have co-ed bathrooms. Really don't know why people are treating it like one. Or why they're so misandric about it.

    Everyone is crying about how frickin...idk...burly, wild lumberjacks are going to be waltzing through the girls rooms, but I've yet to hear a single complaint about how it also means a woman could walk by a urinal that a boy is using. Um, hello? Have we not learned anything from the teacher-student scandals that females can be predators just as much as men? If you're gonna be wringing your hands about 1 unlikely scenario, it's sexist to not give a fuck about the other.

    The stupidity. It burns.

    (Had to do some digging to find the thread you quoted: Annoyances with gays, others)

    As for Ace's quotes, I can only give my 'take' on it ... to me, it appears that he was reacting to the media-circus codswallop that was circling Caitlyn Jenner's conversion to trans-womanhood. I'm not defending Ace, but I'm not surprised at the contradiction; I doubt if he's ever given thought to what gender dysphoria is like from the inside. (I think I may have an inkling, at least, or maybe that's just compassion talking.)
    Thanks for that, Beija. It was silly of me to not include a link to the original post. I appreciate you finding it.

    For what it's worth, Ace doesn't need defending, least not from me. His is hardly a "bad" opinion, and nowhere near as harsh as some that have been directed towards me or said in my presence. For example, one of my own younger brothers freaked the hell out during the aforementioned Jenner debacle, and openly stated that he'd gladly "beat any trans perv into the ground until they were normal again". Since then, I've asked how much he was exaggerating, and he said "Not at all. Trans queers are gross and should be shot."

    Needless to say, nobody in my family knows that I have had g.d. since age 5-6. They all just think I'm "immature" for being a "tomboy" who still dresses like a dude and rocks a male hairstyle. But hey...you let them believe whatever it takes to make sure you don't get killed at the next family reunion, right? Heh heh...

    Your fetal brain-chemistry explanation is fascinating, and makes sense. We are doing more than we know to screw up the food-supply, with hormones (rBST comes to mind) and hormone-analogues (such as the BPA and PCB you mention); maybe that is part of the rise of these situations.
    Definitely.
    I mean, transfolk have always existed (just look at the many Native American tribes that accepted members who were "two-spirits", like the Zuni ambassador We-Wha who was MtF, or the Blackfeet FtM renowned warrior Running Eagle), but the skewed prevalence of men who are being born with trans tendencies seems off kilter.

    (Though it might just be that earlier generations, living in a more rigid culture, had more force put on them to "live their genitals," as I might put it.)
    That scenario seems likely.
    While tolerance is a good thing, though, forced acceptance is not. I had a customer who knew what I am, and he was still not accepting of transfolk. But y'know what? He's *tolerant* of us, even if he doesn't understand our situation, and isn't going around saying we need to die. Sometimes that's the best you can get from someone, and it's good enough.

    Hope we can get more of a dialogue, and cast some light on the questions ...
    Yup. That'd be awesome.
    I don't care much if people disagree with me, so long as there's actual discussion about the topic. And of course, getting answers to questions is always nice. Knowing is half the battle...*gi joe!*

    And, again, it's great to see you back.
    It is great to BE back! Thanks, man.

  6. #6
    Administrator Unboxxed's Avatar
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    Re: A response to the thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
    What about trans-brains?
    So with all these drastic differences, how would a trans person come to be? It very likely has to do with the timing of androgen release in the fetal body. In the first 6-12 weeks of pregnancy, a defemininization process will occur if there is an influx of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone, which creates male body parts like the penis, prostate, and testes. If these are absent, the fetus will continue to grow as a female. However, significant brain development doesn’t occur until weeks 19-23…far after the genitals and majority of the body are already fully developed.

    Thus, if there is a continued influx of either testosterone or estrogen into an opposite sexed baby during this time, such hormones will *only* be able to alter the brain. This is how one can be a person like myself who has the outer look of a female but with a masculine-typed brain structure, and vice versa. It’s important to note that this doesn’t appear in a significant portion of the population though, and studies suggest it only affects .03% of us.
    I find this fascinating. What immediately springs to mind is something I read a long time ago, positing that one cause of homosexuality is when the mother experiences some kind of severe emotional distress during pregnancy, causing chemical changes (?) to the unborn child. I'm sure you've heard about this.
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  7. #7
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    Re: A response to the thread

    What I have a problem with for the most part is the provability of such neurological abberations. For instance, whereas psychopathy is provable via brain activity scans regarding the exposure to external stimuli as well as dopamine release (they have about quadruple the amount of dopamine release), a psychopath's brain will not show any anomaly. John Wayne Gacy's brain was examined post mortem and it showed absolutely no difference whatsoever compared to a normal person's brain. However, his behaviour clearly showed that he was a psychopath. His comment about his crimes: "the only crime I'm guilty of is running an unregistered cemetery". There's very little neurological evidence for almost all kinds of mental illnesses, ranging from depression to personality disorders such as psychopathy. Now don't get me wrong, as I've pointed out there are some tools available for measuring a brain's dysfunction/anomaly, however, it is not used as a diagnostic tool. The reason it's not used is because for many mental illnesses it's still unclear what kind of factors play hand in hand to create the dysfunction/illness/anomaly. Until this is fixed, psychiatric "diagnosis" remains little more than (subjective) observation. Which is why I'm pretty sceptical regarding the field of psychology in general. Yet, regarding trans people as far as I know the major factor influencing whether you'll get the hormones/operation is a psychiatrist, not a neurologist.
    I'd be interest in the studies you've cited, I find it fascinating how humans can turn out so vastly different from each other.

  8. #8
    Tarnished
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    Re: A response to the thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aintdealingwithyoshit View Post
    Yet, regarding trans people as far as I know the major factor influencing whether you'll get the hormones/operation is a psychiatrist, not a neurologist.
    I'd be interest in the studies you've cited, I find it fascinating how humans can turn out so vastly different from each other.
    I believe that a large part of the reasoning behind seeing a psychiatrist instead of a neurologist is due to politically correct MSM bulkshit. It's already very dangerous to say that regular men and women have structural and chemical differences in the brain, even though it is proven true. So now we have a very small segment of the population claiming that those same differences is what makes them dysphoric...How well do you think that's recieved by the Feminist friendly regime?

    Not very, let me tell you.
    So instead, we get sent to psychologists and psychiatrists, to try and convince them we aren't "crazy" and that we'd like to be prescribed hormone therapy. It may be better now, but I've read many accounts by older transfolk (think 50+ years ago) where if they didn't act like stereotypical, over the top caricatures of the sex they identified as, they wouldn't be helped at all.

    I actually haven't cited any studies yet, the "article" quoted above was written by myself using various studies and online resources.
    But sure, I think I have most of them still bookmarked...I can do that after work today.
    (Please note that won't be til much later, as I have a 9 hour shift and a 4 hour total commute.)

  9. #9
    Tarnished
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    Re: A response to the thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unboxxed View Post
    I find this fascinating. What immediately springs to mind is something I read a long time ago, positing that one cause of homosexuality is when the mother experiences some kind of severe emotional distress during pregnancy, causing chemical changes (?) to the unborn child. I'm sure you've heard about this.
    I have indeed, and postulate that there could be similar reasons behind my own g.d.
    My father was a narcissistic alcoholic with bipolar disorder that he refused (and still refuses) to take his medications for. He put my mother in the hospital more than once, even when she was pregnant with me. I'm sure that the stressors of living with such a person for 2 years definitely raised her cortisol and testosterone levels.

    I wonder how many of us come from such bad beginnings? Hmmm. Something else to research...

  10. #10
    Administrator Unboxxed's Avatar
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    Re: A response to the thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
    I wonder how many of us come from such bad beginnings? Hmmm. Something else to research...
    Once, I was late to arrive to a gay picnic (ok, wait, a picnic attended by all gay people. Is that better? LOL). Upon walking up to the area of the park, I saw all of the women were out on the grass playing flag football. All of the men were under the cabana, sitting, talking, and eating. I was struck into motionless silence at this clear reversal of expectation!

    Hey, man, there's gotta be something to this!

    Myself, I have always figured I must be both male and female in my brain. It's the only explanation I got for the breadth of mental experiences I go through. I am male, I think and respond like a man while, other times, I think just like a woman except, notably, never from a position of incapability or impotence which is the way I can often see women as the guy I am. So, okay, any guy might say that, but I am attracted to men over women, except with not enough emotive posture to put me on that parade float. I talk to other men who have this mix like me and who fly under the radar. Fuck, social awareness has not even begun to tap into guys like me. It takes balls for a guy to even admit to it, that he is something not quite gay but not quite straight. I cannot pitch my tent in any one camp. There's this whole thing going on, perhaps part of this gender dysphoria thing, with a bigger spread to it than just those who would ever claim the label.

    Hey, I do know from family history that my mom was under a boatload of emotional stress when pregnant with me. She herself told me a story that she was so distraught during her pregnancy with me (three other rug rats, father left) that she prayed to God and a light came into the room (or in her mind, she wasn't sure which) with a voice telling her everything would be all right.

    I applaud that you are actively seeking explanations.
    Last edited by Unboxxed; June 6, 2016 at 10:07 PM.
    The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. - Mark Twain

    The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
    - Henry David Thoreau

    There are 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.

    Suitable for bookmarking: www.fakehatecrimes.org and www.breitbart.com/tag/hate-crime-hoax

  11. #11
    Tarnished
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    Re: A response to the thread

    As promised, some of the sources and studies I used for research on my post:

    Bao, Ai-Min and Swaab, Dick F. “Sexual differentiation of the human brain: Relation to gender identity, sexual orientation and neuropsychiatric disorders” Frontiers in Neuroendocrinology 32 (2011): 214–226.

    Berglund, H. et al. “Male-to-Female Transsexuals Show Sex-Atypical Hypothalamus Activation When Smelling Odorous Steroids” Cerebral Cortex 18 (August, 2008): 1900—1908.

    Cantor, James M. “New MRI Studies Support the Blanchard Typology of Male-to-Female Transsexualism” Arch Sex Behav 40 (2011): 863–864.

    Dessens, Arianne B., et al. “Prenatal exposure to anticonvulsants and psychosexual development.” Archives of Sexual Behavior 28.1 (1999): 31-44.

    Emory, Lee E., et al. “Anatomic variation of the corpus callosum in persons with gender dysphoria.” Archives of Sexual Behavior 20.4 (1991): 409-417.

    Khandelwal, Ashish et al. “A 47,XXY Female with Gender Identity Disorder” Arch Sex Behav 39 (2010):1021–1023.

    Rametti, Giuseppina et al. “Effects of androgenization on the white matter microstructure of female-to-male transsexuals. A diffusion tensor imaging study” Psychoneuroendocrinology 37 (2012): 1261—1269.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article...on-brain-scan/

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014...34030532617704

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...sgender-brain/

  12. #12
    Tarnished
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    Re: A response to the thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unboxxed View Post
    Once, I was late to arrive to a gay picnic (ok, wait, a picnic attended by all gay people. Is that better? LOL). Upon walking up to the area of the park, I saw all of the women were out on the grass playing flag football. All of the men were under the cabana, sitting, talking, and eating. I was struck into motionless silence at this clear reversal of expectation!
    I've noticed the same exact thing when I was in college. Very interesting to see the reverse of what one is used to.

    Hey, man, there's gotta be something to this!
    Precisely!

    Myself, I have always figured I must be both male and female in my brain. It's the only explanation I got for the breadth of mental experiences I go through.
    It's a possibility. Carl Jung had some theories about having balances between psyches, I believe.

    I am male, I think and respond like a man while, other times, I think just like a woman except, notably, never from a position of incapability or impotence which is the way I can often see women as the guy I am.
    "...never from a position of incapability or impotence..."

    What do you mean, here?
    Do you mean most of the women you interact with have such weaknesses in general, or that they act like they do around you? Or something else completely?

    So, okay, any guy might say that, but I am attracted to men over women, except with not enough emotive posture to put me on that parade float. I talk to other men who have this mix like me and who fly under the radar. Fuck, social awareness has not even begun to tap into guys like me. It takes balls for a guy to even admit to it, that he is something not quite gay but not quite straight. I cannot pitch my tent in any one camp. There's this whole thing going on, perhaps part of this gender dysphoria thing, with a bigger spread to it than just those who would ever claim the label.
    You might simply be bisexual, or a sexuality along the middle of the spectrum instead of at the extremes.

    My FwB is a male, and while he's definitely more attracted to women, he was also open with me about the fact he "experimented" with his sexuality when he was younger. I wouldn't consider him bisexual (although I am, with a slight preference towards the male body) but I also wouldn't say my lover is 100% straight. He's even agreed to being part of a MMF threesome if I ever found another guy I was comfortable having sex with. I do know that he has only told a handful of others about this though, because he also recognizes that anything less than full heterosexuality in men is still not accepted by the majority of people...including women who date/marry them. Personally? It doesn't matter to me who he shared intimacy with previously, just like he doesn't care if I take on another lover someday.

    Hey, I do know from family history that my mom was under a boatload of emotional stress when pregnant with me. She herself told me a story that she was so distraught during her pregnancy with me (three other rug rats, father left) that she prayed to God and a light came into the room (or in her mind, she wasn't sure which) with a voice telling her everything would be all right.
    Whatever it was, I'm glad she found strength to get through her trials, and that you're here to talk with us.

    I applaud that you are actively seeking explanations.
    Thanks! I like hearing about your experiences. They add to the discussion quite well, and it's such a convoluted topic anyway, so more voices is better.


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