Thread: Dazed, Confused . . . Hopeful

Hi Gents - brand-new at posting despite joining a while ago. I had 2.5 years of happy marriage as of last Wednesday (but 31 years in total . . . ba-dum-ching). I bought her flowers, earrings, nice bottle of wine, card, and a $200 dinner. That bought me some peace for a few days, so far. I started running again when COVID hit back in 2020. At 59, running provides me with a lot of things, but most important is a chance to be with my thoughts and to frankly connect with myself and some long dormant spiritual principles. Much of what compelled me to get married, and to stay married despite her affairs and dishonesty, was my commitment to religion and the blind faith that this thing called marriage would improve my life, like everyone insisted it would. It did change my life but in ways I never thought it would. I am way more tolerant and patient having been married. Or, put another way, I can sit and endure harangues and disrespect for longer periods. I am also better able to sniff out BS in general. But as far as this thing bringing me sunshine and unicorns, no way. It is, has been and continues to be a grind. For me, joy in my marriage is when I get a break from it, while running or golfing. Indeed, these breaks are thrown at me like a dog gets a scrap from the table. This grind benefits the wife and family unit and, as society's bipedal alpaca, I did it but I had the nerve to expect something back in return. Instead, I'm to expect the mere presence of this woman "in my life" to be the blessed payoff for everything I sacrificed to make it happen for her. That's okay, but the kids are out of the house now. Interest in sex died in 2014 and, while running, I allow myself to think about freedom from this thing I realize I volunteer for, and I smile because finally I see the problem is me. Barriers I wrestle with include whether I'll piss God off if I divorce and take care of myself. What friends will I lose (and is that a big loss?) and frankly I worry about her a little bit because part of me is decent and caring. But I am where I am because my decency and caring were weaponized to manipulate me into this, into providing "security" and I was just a mark instead of "the one". I presumed security was a stable relationship. I was incorrect. Anyhow, this boils down to a few questions that come up while running and I get clarity and acceptance to ask myself, "why?". Why continue this: what is it that I want to continue, exactly? Won't I be lonely: but I am already alone. Won't I alienate my kids: but they are already doing their own thing. Won't I miss sex: I am functionally celibate since 2014. Will God be pissed: what if he's already pissed that I'm misinterpreting what He says and am useless and miserable instead of engaged and functional? God being pissed is really my last excuse TBH, and what if I'm wrong? What if I'm supposed to be open to what comes to me (like when I am running), and what if I'm not supposed to play God and impose what I think His will is for me in this. Does God's love for me stop if I make a mistake or take care of myself? I think I'm missing the whole point of God in the first place. And does not my wife have God too?

Anyhow, this God things is a big part of my struggle and I'm getting closer to my truth. This forum allows me to look at this stuff and thank God for it. Hate does not serve me, and women could care less what I think anyway. My real problem is why I worry about that in the first place (famous book title, "What Women Think, or Not"). Can I change women so I'll be more comfortable? I need to shed the popular supposition that it is my responsibility to attempt to make women happy. They are never happy but are, nonetheless, always entertained by the effort.

If I have any hate at all, it is probably at myself for allowing this to happen despite what my instincts told me 31 years ago. It's not God who's mad at me, I am mad at myself and mad for listening as a young man to those who I thought knew better. So I think I'm going to stop and then go do the next right thing, and then take a run.

Originally Posted by Dave in PA

Hi Gents - brand-new at posting despite joining a while ago. I had 2.5 years of happy marriage as of last Wednesday (but 31 years in total . . . ba-dum-ching). I bought her flowers, earrings, nice bottle of wine, card, and a $200 dinner. That bought me some peace for a few days, so far. I started running again when COVID hit back in 2020. At 59, running provides me with a lot of things, but most important is a chance to be with my thoughts and to frankly connect with myself and some long dormant spiritual principles. Much of what compelled me to get married, and to stay married despite her affairs and dishonesty, was my commitment to religion and the blind faith that this thing called marriage would improve my life, like everyone insisted it would. It did change my life but in ways I never thought it would. I am way more tolerant and patient having been married. Or, put another way, I can sit and endure harangues and disrespect for longer periods. I am also better able to sniff out BS in general. But as far as this thing bringing me sunshine and unicorns, no way. It is, has been and continues to be a grind. For me, joy in my marriage is when I get a break from it, while running or golfing. Indeed, these breaks are thrown at me like a dog gets a scrap from the table. This grind benefits the wife and family unit and, as society's bipedal alpaca, I did it but I had the nerve to expect something back in return. Instead, I'm to expect the mere presence of this woman "in my life" to be the blessed payoff for everything I sacrificed to make it happen for her. That's okay, but the kids are out of the house now. Interest in sex died in 2014 and, while running, I allow myself to think about freedom from this thing I realize I volunteer for, and I smile because finally I see the problem is me. Barriers I wrestle with include whether I'll piss God off if I divorce and take care of myself. What friends will I lose (and is that a big loss?) and frankly I worry about her a little bit because part of me is decent and caring. But I am where I am because my decency and caring were weaponized to manipulate me into this, into providing "security" and I was just a mark instead of "the one". I presumed security was a stable relationship. I was incorrect. Anyhow, this boils down to a few questions that come up while running and I get clarity and acceptance to ask myself, "why?". Why continue this: what is it that I want to continue, exactly? Won't I be lonely: but I am already alone. Won't I alienate my kids: but they are already doing their own thing. Won't I miss sex: I am functionally celibate since 2014. Will God be pissed: what if he's already pissed that I'm misinterpreting what He says and am useless and miserable instead of engaged and functional? God being pissed is really my last excuse TBH, and what if I'm wrong? What if I'm supposed to be open to what comes to me (like when I am running), and what if I'm not supposed to play God and impose what I think His will is for me in this. Does God's love for me stop if I make a mistake or take care of myself? I think I'm missing the whole point of God in the first place. And does not my wife have God too?

Anyhow, this God things is a big part of my struggle and I'm getting closer to my truth. This forum allows me to look at this stuff and thank God for it. Hate does not serve me, and women could care less what I think anyway. My real problem is why I worry about that in the first place (famous book title, "What Women Think, or Not"). Can I change women so I'll be more comfortable? I need to shed the popular supposition that it is my responsibility to attempt to make women happy. They are never happy but are, nonetheless, always entertained by the effort.

If I have any hate at all, it is probably at myself for allowing this to happen despite what my instincts told me 31 years ago. It's not God who's mad at me, I am mad at myself and mad for listening as a young man to those who I thought knew better. So I think I'm going to stop and then go do the next right thing, and then take a run.

Hi Dave in PA,

Thank you, brother, for your candor. I am Christian and struggle and have struggled with wondering how much suffering need I endure for God's approval, wondering that if I give up on the struggle and make a change, am I going against something, disobeying even, or is suffering it out is supposed to deliver me eventually to a desired place in the end, approved by God? How much is real and how much is intellectual self-entrapment, do you know what I mean? I read and hear of many stories where Christians share their trials but they seem to only share them after they have arrived at a better place mentally, attributing the whole trial to God. And I believe them but I don't hear enough about Christians during their process of getting to a better place as they struggle to find the way out, a way inoffensive to God or at least not done in defiance of Him. We each ask ourselves, How much am I supposed to take?

Does God's love for me stop if I make a mistake or take care of myself? I think I'm missing the whole point of God in the first place.

No, His love doesn't stop.

And does not my wife have God too?

I can hear the gears of your mind turning here in what's behind this statement. Yeah.

For me, joy in my marriage is when I get a break from it,

That sums it up.

Old timers on this site know that in past times we have had a few married members here and will chide me as responsible for ending such participation, once I came on board. All other members know me to summarily ban married men. For the sake of our members reading this, I will say that I do ban married men from registered membership as blue pill unless they show that they are "trapped" in a marriage as you are, and not just a blue pill guy here to chat us up about women. Unlike them, I believe you have quite satisfactorily shown yourself to be, well, truly unhappy in your marriage, regretful even, and stuck for a resolution.

So I am going to accept your membership and trust you that, if at some future point you evolve to an outcome where you transcend your dilemma and stay with her with a renewed commitment to your marriage, you notify me so I can close your account with us.

Until that seemingly unlikely day, Welcome.

At this time, as a new member please read our Principles by clicking on that word at the top of this page, in the black bar.

Hi Dave in PA,

How are ya?

For the future, walls of text are hard to read but I muddled through it.


Much of what you say resonates with many of us. Stuck in a loveless marriage seems like hell to me.

With regards your comments about God’s will I’ll tell you straight up that I’m atheist, but that doesn’t mean I disagree with your struggle with commitment.

You made an oath, something that is sacred to you and as such cannot simply be cast aside as a meaningless triviality.

Such is my word. I have no need for religion reinforce this notion.

But what happens when those you give your allegiance to don’t hold to your principles whether religious or otherwise?

What then?

Should you hold to your commitment regardless, or should you reconsider given the fact that you made this commitment under false pretences?

You come here looking for answers and instead I give you more questions.

My apologies.

These are the questions one must answer before contentment and then happiness can settle in.

I do believe in God but not like most people do. I am God as are you and all people past and present. The power of prayer is a powerful thing a group praying is even more powerful. In scripture we are told, "as man think so is he" All through the ages all religious scholars agree on one thing what we THINK about we become. "As with in so with out" It has been stated many ways but they all have the same message.



So I believe if I THINK I'm gonna live my life miserable I will continue the behavior that is making me miserable or I can think of a way to make my life less dejected! As we are all taught / programed as to what we should do to conform to "social norms" go to school get a good job, marry have kid's the whole 9 yards of bullshit shoved down our throats. Follow the followers is the real objective so we all do as we are told like good little lemmings. If I am doing what 95% of the population is doing in my mind I am doing wrong! So I try my best not to conform to any socially accepted 'norms" like organized religion. I am not condemning what others believe to be true or of others faith I am simply expressing my beliefs.


Do what makes you happy that in my eyes is heaven on earth. Or you can continue to live miserable and have hell on earth for the remaining time you have. Me I have chosen happiness I believe God wants me to be happy for the rest of my days.

Originally Posted by Unboxxed

Hi Dave in PA,

Thank you, brother, for your candor. I am Christian and struggle and have struggled with wondering how much suffering need I endure for God's approval, wondering that if I give up on the struggle and make a change, am I going against something, disobeying even, or is suffering it out is supposed to deliver me eventually to a desired place in the end, approved by God? How much is real and how much is intellectual self-entrapment, do you know what I mean? I read and hear of many stories where Christians share their trials but they seem to only share them after they have arrived at a better place mentally, attributing the whole trial to God. And I believe them but I don't hear enough about Christians during their process of getting to a better place as they struggle to find the way out, a way inoffensive to God or at least not done in defiance of Him. We each ask ourselves, How much am I supposed to take?



No, His love doesn't stop.




I can hear the gears of your mind turning here in what's behind this statement. Yeah.




That sums it up.

Old timers on this site know that in past times we have had a few married members here and will chide me as responsible for ending such participation, once I came on board. All other members know me to summarily ban married men. For the sake of our members reading this, I will say that I do ban married men from registered membership as blue pill unless they show that they are "trapped" in a marriage as you are, and not just a blue pill guy here to chat us up about women. Unlike them, I believe you have quite satisfactorily shown yourself to be, well, truly unhappy in your marriage, regretful even, and stuck for a resolution.

So I am going to accept your membership and trust you that, if at some future point you evolve to an outcome where you transcend your dilemma and stay with her with a renewed commitment to your marriage, you notify me so I can close your account with us.

Until that seemingly unlikely day, Welcome.

At this time, as a new member please read our Principles by clicking on that word at the top of this page, in the black bar.

Are you getting soft on us, Unboxxed?

Originally Posted by mgtower

Are you getting soft on us, Unboxxed?

I'd say No. I've always meant to include such trapped married men, knowing they are few in arrival here, knowing they have to explain well that they are not just here to chat. Up until now, all of them do not explain, or explain well, and so they get summarily banned. That is what you've seen.

I just don't advertise. Sooner or later I figured it possible that someone would Intro here under my watch to fit that category and that time has just arrived. This man's forthrightness and candor has effectively explained his situation and spared him the banhammer. Think about it, how often do married men volunteer at length their personal dilemma, with candor and intellectual honesty, and as well as this new member has done, to even approximate his situation? They don't. They only mention that they are married while they spend their Intro slamming women in general. They show me that they are blue or purple pill.

We have other members on this site who are married, keep in mind. RedPilledSimp is married. Jagr welcomed him.

I knew a fellow IRL whose wife hated him, disrespected him, and divorce would cost him religiously as he is an elder in the Mormon Church. I would consider him trapped in marriage and, AFAIK, he still is. He's living a numbed life, going through motions, sublimating his needs. Sucks to be him.

I hope those old-time members are reading this. I deserve their vindication!

Dave you have more years behind you, than ahead of you. How will you choose to spend those remaining years?

You have served your God, your kids, and if I read right, an unfaithful wife. I see you had an s after the word affair. As in multiple? So how big a martyr do you need to be? To feel like you have done the "right" thing staying married.

When the pain of staying, exceeds the pain of leaving. You will make your move. I'm just concerned about the high tolerance of pain you have taught yourself. All the best to you.

Ubxd- Vindicated? Hardly. I will acknowledge your progress with a heartfelt attaboy. LOL
We both know that Dave's story is the best way to reinforce what a MGTOW lifestyle avoids.

I truly hope Dave saves himself.

Originally Posted by O.G.

Ubxd- Vindicated? Hardly. I will acknowledge your progress with a heartfelt attaboy. LOL

Please, don't pat me on the head. It's not progress when I haven't changed from the start. Thought I made that clear. I have, however, been criticized unkindly by presumptuous members. If you were one of them, give yourself a pat, I guess, for correcting an assumption.

Hi, Dave. Welcome. I feel for your struggle. I was in an unhappy marriage for a while, too. I pulled the plug pretty quickly, though. I hope you get to the point where you can pull the plug, too.

There is a lot of good in your post. A lot of honesty, introspection, care, and responsibility. You sound like a good man struggling with a bad situation.

One line stuck out in particular: " But I am where I am because my decency and caring were weaponized to manipulate me into this, into providing "security" and I was just a mark instead of "the one".

I've been thinking a lot lately about the issue of male sacrifice or male servitude. We are programmed by society to see ourselves as valuable only insofar as we are useful to others. We should sacrifice ourselves for women and children. We should spend our life energy shaping ourselves into the men women want us to be. We should be their heroes, their providers, their protectors. We should stress ourselves out, climbing the ladder of "success" in order to fulfill our role in society. We should go to war and die, because society needs us to do that.

You mentioned that you are a Christian. Unfortunately, traditional Christianity has actively trained men to be this way, too -- self-abnegating, self-sacrificing, seeing themselves as only worthy of love insofar as they are serving someone else (mainly women and children, but also society). I consider myself marginally Christian myself, so I'm not saying this to attack your faith, just to point you to something in it that may not be helping.

I don't mean to imply that there is nothing virtuous in serving others, or putting others first sometimes. It's a deep rabbit hole, a complicated issue. I don't mean to say that you should be only concerned with yourself. But I think you've got the scales tilted way too far towards other people, and too little toward yourself.

Take care of yourself. Listen inside to what you really want. Value that. Stand up for that. Don't just put others first and hope they reciprocate. Women generally don't do that. They enjoy what you provide for them, but they aren't particularly grateful. After all, you're just doing what you're "supposed to do," as a man, right?

Get out of that self-sacrificial mindset. Try to dislodge yourself from the idea that your worth derives from your service to others. You are not a utility designed for others' use. You have value. What you feel matters. What you want matters. Saint Iranaeus said, "The glory of God is a human being fully alive." God wants you fully alive, not dragging yourself through an unhappy marriage.

I don't have the answers. That's up to you. But I'm glad you joined.

Man is to submit only to God and to merely "obey" lawful authorities. Men are to lead women and children, care for them, but be in charge and over them. This motif is repeated throughout the Bible, Old and New Testaments.

Authority of women over Men, particularly in matters of Spirit, is clearly repudiated. Paul states this in no uncertain terms. (1 Timothy 2:11-14; Ephesians 22-23; 33) Nor do obedient Jews allow Female Clerics to instruct men. All lineage in the OT is patrilineal.

Adultery is given in the Bible as a valid for divorce and is a Sin - and not just the words of Paul, but the Son Himself: Romans 7:2-3, Matthew 19:9 (and countless references elsewhere)

In fact, women's obedience to men extends to potential Pagan Husbands, and if they are to convert them it is by being a paragon of submission to them, this was a cornerstone of not only Early Church stories but lasted until the 19th Century ("Unforgiven" is based on these kinds of stories: The protaganist is converted by his wife's patience and virtue). This blows away the "Daughter of the King" and other justifications based on Churchianist Worldliness.

All writings from any sect of Christianity - from Puritans to Bapists to Catholic unto the late 19th Century maintain the Word in these instances. It's ~2000 of Christian Teaching, but suddenly, in the late 19th Century, Churchianity arose and began flat out contradicting every Theologian from any sect that ever commented on Family and Marriage in all that time. Nor any theologian of Jewish or Muslim or other Monotheistic religion (and frankly, most other religions) taught otherwise.

Dave, both your wife and the Church expect you to give them the best you got, while they repay you with dry food and hose water. The way I see it, both are playing you for a chump and you don't owe either one any more than they been giving you, which ain't much.

We naturally think you'd be better off with your wife in the rear-view mirror. But even if she stays, there's things you could do. Spend some time and money on yourself instead of using it to keep wifey off your case for a short time. Why should it always be about her? You'll no doubt get some kickback, but so what? Your woman and the Church both think you're just a crop to be harvested and won't ever see you any different. Neither one will ever treat you right. Think about that the next time they expect fairness from you.

Sorry to start out with hard words Dave, but they needed to be said. I hope you hang around, and welcome.

Gentlemen - Thank you. Thank you UnBoxxed for stating the rules here too. I had no idea there was this level of respect and honesty available anywhere, let alone in an online forum. You all have laid down some truths and I see that as a greater expression of concern and support than anything else. I'm relieved at the sense of connection and a sense of being understood right now. I can't buy this anywhere (and I've tried).


Quick progress report. I was hooked up to a divorce coach by my sister. She was pitched to me as a wedding planner but for divorces. I keyed off the $150/Hour rate to get ready for a divorce versus a $600/hour rate for an attorney. We had a zoom call yesterday and her advice was, leave the house. I asked her who's side is she on? She mumbled that yes of course your wife could change the locks but the deed won't change. I live near Philadelphia and there are more lawyers here than trees. I gotta think that one of them could find a way to say I voluntarily abandoned the house. I'm also getting a sense that "Divorce Inc" easily knows what the law is but "doesn't think it means what it says".


Noting what I get here in this forum versus the advice I get from women (who I pay), I'm thinking it's time to listen to my gut and to you guys. Holy Flurking Sheet, it's like a hive-mind. The scope of it is dawning on me, and it's reinforced when I spoke to this divorce planner who asked if there was someone else. I said unequivocally that there was not, and she would not let it go. I spent about $30 of my $150/hour making that point. And she tensed up when it was finally clear. Then came the "leave the house" advice. WTF? It seems they think I'm stupid too. So my eyes feel like they're starting to open, and I'm starting to see what (and who) is in the way.


Lastly, I just gotta get this out. I can't shake the sense that my wife was with an old boyfriend before our wedding. This was in 1991 but it is still vivid to me. Her crew from college took me to lunch before the ceremony, and they were very silent. I knew this fuck was in town and I was not shown the guest list. If I'm correct about this, this is easily the one that kills me the most. Accepting this means accepting the truth about who she was, and is. And I still went through with it. And the collusion of her friends, who I thought were my friends too, and even the collusion of her mother (who I liked) and this absolutely f'ing kills me. It cuts my heart out, then drives over it, then pisses on it. All with a smile and the smug satisfaction that they're protecting me, in their minds. God, WTF is wrong with me? I thought I'd be okay in the marriage dynamic. I want to ask where God was in all this, and in the searing pain I've handled alone for decades. Maybe He's here now and never left and just waits for me to take care of myself.


I've posted another text wall. I'm just trying to deal with this. I feel like it's enough now. I see where my support will come from, and from where it won't. I get the blue pill v red pill now and am starting to see how deep it goes. Going to read the principals now. I appreciate all the feedback. Thanks guys.

Originally Posted by Dave in PA

Gentlemen - Thank you. Thank you UnBoxxed for stating the rules here too. I had no idea there was this level of respect and honesty available anywhere, let alone in an online forum. You all have laid down some truths and I see that as a greater expression of concern and support than anything else. I'm relieved at the sense of connection and a sense of being understood right now. I can't buy this anywhere (and I've tried).


Quick progress report. I was hooked up to a divorce coach by my sister. She was pitched to me as a wedding planner but for divorces. I keyed off the $150/Hour rate to get ready for a divorce versus a $600/hour rate for an attorney. We had a zoom call yesterday and her advice was, leave the house. I asked her who's side is she on? She mumbled that yes of course your wife could change the locks but the deed won't change. I live near Philadelphia and there are more lawyers here than trees. I gotta think that one of them could find a way to say I voluntarily abandoned the house. I'm also getting a sense that "Divorce Inc" easily knows what the law is but "doesn't think it means what it says".


Noting what I get here in this forum versus the advice I get from women (who I pay), I'm thinking it's time to listen to my gut and to you guys. Holy Flurking Sheet, it's like a hive-mind. The scope of it is dawning on me, and it's reinforced when I spoke to this divorce planner who asked if there was someone else. I said unequivocally that there was not, and she would not let it go. I spent about $30 of my $150/hour making that point. And she tensed up when it was finally clear. Then came the "leave the house" advice. WTF? It seems they think I'm stupid too. So my eyes feel like they're starting to open, and I'm starting to see what (and who) is in the way.


Lastly, I just gotta get this out. I can't shake the sense that my wife was with an old boyfriend before our wedding. This was in 1991 but it is still vivid to me. Her crew from college took me to lunch before the ceremony, and they were very silent. I knew this fuck was in town and I was not shown the guest list. If I'm correct about this, this is easily the one that kills me the most. Accepting this means accepting the truth about who she was, and is. And I still went through with it. And the collusion of her friends, who I thought were my friends too, and even the collusion of her mother (who I liked) and this absolutely f'ing kills me. It cuts my heart out, then drives over it, then pisses on it. All with a smile and the smug satisfaction that they're protecting me, in their minds. God, WTF is wrong with me? I thought I'd be okay in the marriage dynamic. I want to ask where God was in all this, and in the searing pain I've handled alone for decades. Maybe He's here now and never left and just waits for me to take care of myself.


I've posted another text wall. I'm just trying to deal with this. I feel like it's enough now. I see where my support will come from, and from where it won't. I get the blue pill v red pill now and am starting to see how deep it goes. Going to read the principals now. I appreciate all the feedback. Thanks guys.

Thanks, Dave, we're more enlightened on where your mindset is regarding the ugly truths and the self deceptions still hiding in your psyche.

A man named Thomas Ball set himself on fire going through the divorce wringer, so don't expect anything to be fair and prepare to become methodical about your own protection.

One of many tricks is to consult every top divorce lawyer in your area so she can't attain them due to conflict of interest.

Try for something amical without crushing legal costs and contesting, explain to her the more she fights the more the lawyers get and that you're willing to fight to an economic death where everyone else walks away and she gets blood from a stone.

Hanging around here and asking divorce advice is like hanging around an oak grove and asking for acorns!

At least you found out early the "divorce coach" is a ringer. That's something anyway. I hope your done with her and her dirty tricks.

Really hate to see you so bummed out but maybe it's for the best. Maybe it'll help you get out, or at least to see your wife for who she really is. It looks like you've reached the point where what's been seen cannot be unseen.

You are likely in for a serious battle. When my neighbor started his divorce, he was willing to see his soon to be ex get a fair shake. But by the time his wife's lawyer got through dragging him through the mud, he didn't care if she ended up in a cardboard box. Lucky for the neighbor, the Judge didn't care for the ex's lawyer either and wifey didn't fare so well.

I'm not saying you should dump the Church, even though they've done you no favors. Just realize they got their own faults and agendas like everybody else.

Be sure to follow Tower's advice about consulting all the good lawyers.

Originally Posted by Dave in PA

versus the advice I get from women (who I pay),

Hive mind, indeed. Your sister (a woman) refers you to a "divorce coach" (another woman) and your MIL (another woman) and all of your wife's friends (let me guess, all women) took the side of your then-fiance. That lunch they took you on.

A divorce coach sounds like someone who fabricated a niche for themselves, like an aromatherapist or a dog walker. A divorce coach is not a lawyer! She's a doula but for divorce. A divorce doula! Run! Besides, her pressing you about someone else is a huge red flag. Run harder!

And forget any suggestions for joint counseling because likely it will be a woman counselor and word on the street is that they will always focus on fixing you, not her, to keep you in the marriage.

You're a utility. It's no fun hearing that once it hits you like a ton of bricks. Your needs didn't matter. Kinda like Rosemary in the movie Rosemary's Baby. Ha, I just now thought of that. Everybody around her was gaslighting her. Her husband, her doctor, everybody.

If your wife says to divorce without lawyers, that doesn't mean that she is not seeing one anyway.

Originally Posted by Dave in PA

Lastly, I just gotta get this out. I can't shake the sense that my wife was with an old boyfriend before our wedding. This was in 1991 but it is still vivid to me. Her crew from college took me to lunch before the ceremony, and they were very silent. I knew this fuck was in town and I was not shown the guest list. If I'm correct about this, this is easily the one that kills me the most. Accepting this means accepting the truth about who she was, and is. And I still went through with it. And the collusion of her friends, who I thought were my friends too, and even the collusion of her mother (who I liked) and this absolutely f'ing kills me. It cuts my heart out, then drives over it, then pisses on it. All with a smile and the smug satisfaction that they're protecting me, in their minds. God, WTF is wrong with me? I thought I'd be okay in the marriage dynamic. I want to ask where God was in all this, and in the searing pain I've handled alone for decades. Maybe He's here now and never left and just waits for me to take care of myself.

I've posted another text wall. I'm just trying to deal with this. I feel like it's enough now. I see where my support will come from, and from where it won't. I get the blue pill v red pill now and am starting to see how deep it goes. Going to read the principals now. I appreciate all the feedback. Thanks guys.

Thank you for sharing your story.

It may have been, that without things playing out the way it did, bad things may have happened; it also may have been by being a Rock, you gave succor to many, including acquaintences and strangers whose lives you touched but never knew how. I can think of many times I was saved by people I didn't even know well, who simply were there and said or did something at the right time that changed my outlook on various things. Now that you're older, wiser, and more patient, you are getting the gift of sight and intuition and freed from this burden, it having served it's purpose.

You are certainly providing a warning to many men in a similar situation or upbringing that may be hesitant.

I personally think we are in a Civilizational Chastisement, and had to be shown the wantonness of the Jezebel spirit because we forgot WHY we did things the way we did in the past. The whole thing about words vs. actions: We had to be shown with actions what happens, the words no longer sufficed as a warning, and we'll see what happens next.

Originally Posted by Unboxxed

A divorce coach sounds like someone who fabricated a niche for themselves, like an aromatherapist or a dog walker. A divorce coach is not a lawyer! She's a doula but for divorce. A divorce doula! Run! Besides, her pressing you about someone else is a huge red flag. Run harder!

And forget any suggestions for joint counseling because likely it will be a woman counselor and word on the street is that they will always focus on fixing you, not her, to keep you in the marriage.

Great comparison. She's like a "Life Coach" recommended by somebody with a vested interest in pushing a person into a direction preferred by the Interest.

Dave in PA- you’re in the right place.

We’ve got some similarities between us in that I found out after my 21 year marriage ended, that my 21 year old daughter might not even be mine biologically. She cheated at various times starting during our engagement. Unlike you, I had no idea.

Another similarity is the involvement of the church in the whole mess. While I was being cheated on, she was attending prayer group with her boyfriend while I was home with the kids.

Her story (way after the fact) to the kids on why she divorced centered on my shortcomings and how I didn’t fulfill HER needs. Her story to the church centered on how SHE was forced into the marriage and how SHE was coerced into the decision by others because she was pregnant. This enables her to obtain her annulment so she can remain in good standing with the church and continue her monkey branch within the rules of the church. So, like always, they’ll lie to accomplish whatever is in their own best interests at that moment.

For me, now 8 years later, I’m so much better off without her and the “church”, it’s almost beyond description. Brighter days are ahead!

Oh- and I can attest first hand to MGTOWER’s comment about the lawyers. I was told by my ex that we need to go through the process without lawyers. Why give them all the money?

I fell for it, only to find out she had one all along. Don’t make the same mistake. Ditch the divorce coach and get yourself a lawyer. When I found out about her having a lawyer, I went to Cordell & Cordell. They were decent on the fees and helped me out of a jam. Protect yourself and your kids at all costs.

Originally Posted by Dave in PA

We had a zoom call yesterday and her advice was, leave the house. I asked her who's side is she on?

Possession is said to be nine tenths of the law so advice to leave the matrimonial home is generally considered bad advice, but only for the woman.

Let’s be brutally honest here, unless there are very exceptional circumstances she’s getting the house and the kids and a shitload of other stuff.

Move out now or move out later, the choice is yours. For a man, staying put will not influence the divorce court much, if at all.

This being true, staying put may cause more friction between the two of you which she will undoubtedly put to good use with the courts. Distancing yourself from this scenario may well pay dividends in the courts as you could thereby show that you took the higher ground for the sake of your kids. This will earn you brownie points and may bring you a more favourable settlement.

I say this because I’m making an assumption that you can afford to find somewhere else to live: $150 / hour for coaching and $600 / hour attorney fees aren’t the kind of figures a dude that is struggling financially contemplates.

Originally Posted by Dave in PA

I'm correct about this, this is easily the one that kills me the most. Accepting this means accepting the truth about who she was, and is. And I still went through with it. And the collusion of her friends, who I thought were my friends too, and even the collusion of her mother (who I liked) and this absolutely f'ing kills me. It cuts my heart out, then drives over it, then pisses on it. All with a smile and the smug satisfaction that they're protecting me, in their minds.

Protecting people from the truth is no protection at all. From what you write they were in collusion with her. They were protecting someone alright but it wasn’t you, it was her.

You say “in their minds”. This is projection. You simply have no way of knowing what was in their minds, what you do know is their actions. If you’re going to judge them then judge them on this. Don’t confound the issue by making assumptions about intentions that you know nothing of.


You need to see this for what it was, part of your past. If you’re ever going to move on then you must put this shit behind you. Easier said than done I know. Such thoughts have a way of asserting themselves regardless of one’s resolve, and they hurt. They cut to the core and they never really go away, they just become less frequent.

See this as a positive, hard as this may seem at the moment. The hurt you feel now teaches you not to make the same mistakes again. You have grown and when you come to terms with these thoughts, and you will, you will realise that these experiences help you develop a protective skin that Kevlar doesn’t come close to.

Originally Posted by Dave in PA

I've posted another text wall.

Not at all. You broke your post up into paragraphs. That is all we ask to make things easier to read.

Originally Posted by Unboxxed

If your wife says to divorce without lawyers, that doesn't mean that she is not seeing one anyway.

Originally Posted by Survivor64

I was told by my ex that we need to go through the process without lawyers. Why give them all the money?

I fell for it, only to find out she had one all along.

There ya go.