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  1. #21

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    Quote Originally Posted by BeenThereDoneThat View Post
    In my experience, most people who start their own businesses end up working their asses off, and there's no guarantee of success. .. the failure rate for start-up small businesses typically runs about 90% within the first 5 years. ... My bet is just it's just one more fly by night poster who will make 5 comments and leave, when not enough people bite the hook and beg for the secrets to his success.
    What you say it true, however that also means 10% of small businesses do succeed in crossing the 5 year mark. 1 in 10 isn't highly unlikely its actually more common when one considers the 150,000 MGTOW members (in reddit) barely makes up a fraction of a percent of the US population. We're extremely uncommon in comparison.

    The fact remains that we won't know if what he said was true unless we ask him, and we didn't ask. We instead opened up with snide, uncalled for remarks, and prejudgements and cynicism. And we kept on doing so. Given the initial hostility he was greeted with, its likely he'll never come back to respond, thus fitting into assumptions of a fly-by-night poster who makes a few comments and leaves, which only serves to reinforce our own confirmation biases. This isn't healthy for us.

  2. #22

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    Quote Originally Posted by frog View Post
    Ask a troll to be honest? .. didn't even stick around to call us names, he wasn't real. .. When you walk like a duck and quack like a duck, expect to get treated like a duck.
    Those are more prejudgements. We don't know for certain that he is a troll. And how does raising the ire of a new member to the point where he resorts to name-calling somehow prove he is 'real'? He's a new member, and once he starts calling names, he'd get banned for it. Under such a system of proof, he's prejudged to be a troll or he gets banned - no matter what he does, he's out of here! Is that what you really want?

    Quote Originally Posted by frog View Post
    ... had he said anything worthwhile we'd a been respectful.
    But he did say something worthwhile in his post, which had more than 10 paragraphs, only one paragraph which had the mention of weekly expenses. I see past that part, and read that if one can afford the lifestyle, one can live pretty well without the risks. Jagrmeister himself personally chimed in and liked his post - he did say something worthwhile enough for Jagr to personally agree and to say so. Even with Jagr's comment, it didn't stop some posters from continuing the beat-down.

  3. #23

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    Look I'm not criticising or singling out anyone, all I'm saying is to please be fair the next time around.

    The right thing to do was to ask him first and then verify from his response. We failed to do that.

    We prejudged him because he threw out some numbers for expenses which sadly detracted from the message of his thread.
    And based on those numbers, some of us bristled and took up hostile positions against him.

    Jagr stepped in and the hostility should have ended there but it didn't. So unfortunately it looks like he's gone and we can't undo what has been done, but we can try to remember and conduct ourselves better next time round.

  4. #24
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    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsmith79 View Post
    The fact remains that we won't know if what he said was true unless we ask him, and we didn't ask. We instead opened up with snide, uncalled for remarks, and prejudgements and cynicism. And we kept on doing so. Given the initial hostility he was greeted with, its likely he'll never come back to respond, thus fitting into assumptions of a fly-by-night poster who makes a few comments and leaves, which only serves to reinforce our own confirmation biases. This isn't healthy for us.
    I get it. You’re attempting to see things from multiple perspectives and this IMO is a great trait, but I believe your efforts are wasted here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReturnOfHarems View Post
    I bring this up not to brag but to show the younger guys the way.* Ultimately you are limited by your IQ level and work ethic, but in the first world it's really not that hard.* Just sit in a quiet room alone and read and think until you are rich.* It IS possible and much easier as a single man.
    He speaks here of work ethic and then tries to re-enforce this by advising people to sit alone and read and think until you’re rich? Where’s the work ethic he speaks of?

    Look, I’m a poor guy by any standards but I didn’t get in to him because he claimed to be doing well, I just didn’t believe him.

    And, members can believe this or not, but one of my closest friends is what I consider rich and lives a somewhat similar lifestyle as is depicted here. I’m also acquainted in my personal life with some that make my rich friend look poor.

    I like my frugal lifestyle including the challenges it brings and have nothing against those that seek and obtain another lifestyle, it’s just not for me.

    I just don’t find him credible, especially when it comes to the MGTOW life:

    Quote Originally Posted by ReturnOfHarems View Post
    I still do crave something more permanent and enduring, so now I'm starting to plan out a family with a surrogate, high IQ eggs, and nanny.* I even toy with the idea of bringing in an actual long term girlfriend to complete my MGTOW family.* A girlfriend that will have no legal ties to me or my children.

  5. #25

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    @Jackoff: All I'm saying is to please be fair the next time around. By assuming from the get go that he was a troll, and making uncalled for remarks, we went borderline against the principles of the forum when the right thing to do was to ask him first and then verify from his response. We failed to do that. Let's try to do better next time.

  6. #26

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    We trashed him so fast that now we cant even ask clarifying questions or gain any additional information. No one gets paid to put their experiences on the forum...it takes time and effort.

    No one wins in this scenario and everyone loses.

    I agree that you can hire cleaning and cooking cheaper than you can pay for a live wife/GF...would have like to have known more about the other option as that is where I am headed next if I decide I need help in that area.

  7. #27
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    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsmith79 View Post
    @Jackoff: All I'm saying is to please be fair the next time around. By assuming from the get go that he was a troll, and making uncalled for remarks, we went borderline against the principles of the forum when the right thing to do was to ask him first and then verify from his response. We failed to do that. Let's try to do better next time.
    I understand what you’re saying, truly I do, but trying to be fair has very often led me astray because I had very confused notions of what being fair means.

    You pointed out in another thread that I’ve become somewhat cynical and I tend to agree with that. I think I even gave a like to the post concerned.

    But the reason for my apparent cynicism is because too many times in the past I have given the benefit of the doubt only later to rue the fact that I didn’t listen to my gut feelings in the first place and ended up feeling like a fool for not listening to my own instincts.

    These days I don’t make that mistake, but I admit that I can occasionally over-compensate and when that happens I’m quick to apologise. So far I see no reason for such an apology.

    Should ReturnOfHarems return and justify his position I assure you, and possibly more importantly him that such an apology will indeed be forthcoming.

    I won’t hold my breath.

    P.S.

    There are those that have the POV of giving enough rope to hang themselves. My POV is show them the rope and let them talk their way out of it.

  8. #28

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    Quote Originally Posted by flying View Post
    We trashed him so fast that now we cant even ask clarifying questions or gain any additional information. No one gets paid to put their experiences on the forum...it takes time and effort.

    No one wins in this scenario and everyone loses.

    I agree that you can hire cleaning and cooking cheaper than you can pay for a live wife/GF...would have like to have known more about the other option as that is where I am headed next if I decide I need help in that area.
    There are plenty of sources for you to learn what you need to know, without trying to figure out if an anonymous internet poster is providing good information. Here's a Forbes article for example: "Top 4 Reasons Passive Income is a Dangerous Fantasy." These articles exist because passive income scams have been around since about 2 seconds after the invention of money.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...h=27cd45df692f

    People love the concept of easy money, and can waste an incredible amount of time and energy pursuing it. We of course can't know for sure if any particular individual is one of the few who made it work, but skepticism up front is a good way to save yourself a lot of potential grief. I had a friend who devoted 5 years to a passive income scam, and gained nothing. And that's just one anecdote among many. Young MGTOW types might be especially susceptible, because they are trying to find alternatives to the typical social/work arrangements.

  9. #29
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    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    Quote Originally Posted by ReturnOfHarems View Post
    now that I'm 7 years older I'm beginning to have a new perspective.* Being on my own has allowed me to become a millionaire business owner. (...) Money and in particular compound interest can set you free.
    The interest rates for the past 7 years have been pretty low. There wouldn't be much of a difference from compound interest. That you're emphasizing something that simply isn't true suggests to me that the rest of your post is also probably untrue.

  10. #30

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    Quote Originally Posted by dsf978e View Post
    The interest rates for the past 7 years have been pretty low. .. wouldn't be much of a difference from compound interest.
    Hi dsf978e, I don't wish to add more to what has already been said with respect to having prejudgments and the forum rules as it would only serve to ruffle more feathers with nothing to gain.

    However, if I can touch on specifically on the concept of compounding interest - it is the basis behind investment, insurance and good retirement planning and many videos are available online which illustrates what one can do with the power of compound interest (eg. Investing Basics: The Power of Compounding - YouTube).

    I believe the interest rates you're thinking about are specific to bank deposit interest rates, which have remained low for years. For investors and bankers, the term is used to refer to returns on various investment products, be it in bonds or equities (stocks like Tesla, Microsoft, Amazon, etc) or cryptos.

  11. #31

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    appreciate the comments on passive income...that was going to be the "strike it rich" plan for the last LTR I was in...while she wasted her life on that, I got to pay for everything because she never had any money. always the promise of "making it big" and then she would start to contribute and would buy me all kinds of stuff...yeah right.

  12. #32
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    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    johnsmith, I understand what you're saying. We set him up and you think we should do better next time. Fair enough.

    My problem is rather ROH was phony or not, this was a troll's post. It reads like a Mel Brooks movie; I wouldn't line a birdcage with ROH's advice.

    I'll remember what you said, but am not making any promises. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Sorry I pissed you off, it was not my intention.
    Last edited by frog; December 15, 2021 at 2:12 PM.
    Every day I make the world a little bit worse.

  13. #33

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    Quote Originally Posted by frog View Post
    Sorry I pissed you off, it was not my intention.
    Hi frog, I'm not pissed off, so apologies are completely unnecessary. Instead, let me thank you for not being offended and for offering some consensus, it is much appreciated.

    What held me back in dismissing him as a troll were a number of factors, primarily:
    (i) online business opportunities have ballooned and opened up significant opportunities for young college-age men who have a vision and can code and hundreds of billions of venture cap money have been flooding any idea regardless of profitability, minting many a millionaire before they even step out of college;
    (ii) the market returns have been extremely generous over the past decade and a number well known names have shown returns upwards of several hundreds or thousands of percent which is unheard of in previous generations;
    Taken together, this means there are likely to be many newly minted millionaires, many of whom are likely to be men and possibly MGTOW as women don't generally take those sort of business and investment risks and married men/men in relationships don't really get a free hand on taking those sort of risks either;
    (iii) as with Jagrmeister, I have done something similar in the past, and
    (iv) I'm also generally in agreement with what he said about taking risks to start a business, especially when one is young and full of ideas as well as on letting investment interest compound.

    I appreciate that different people can share different perspectives, hence I would like to appeal to the Principles of the forum in which we agreed to abide by, which encourages us to not be immediately dismissive, to ask questions first and to foster a collaborative dialog before becoming judge, jury and executioner.

    I would also highlight that one of the dangers of choosing to immediately shoot first and ask questions later is that we risk driving away MGTOWs who do not fit the common background and experiences from the established core group here, because their circumstances and backgrounds would appear so far-out of the usual experience that they would immediately be dismissed as trolls, as a fact, I was hesitant to admit that I have done similarly to him were it not first for Jagr's admission that he had done something similar.
    Last edited by johnsmith79; December 15, 2021 at 4:47 PM.

  14. #34

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    Quote Originally Posted by flying View Post
    appreciate the comments on passive income...that was going to be the "strike it rich" plan for the last LTR I was in...while she wasted her life on that, I got to pay for everything because she never had any money. always the promise of "making it big" and then she would start to contribute and would buy me all kinds of stuff...yeah right.
    Yes, women might be especially susceptible to the schemes, because there is social reassurance and magical thinking involved.

    I was inspired by this discussion to check in on Amway, the passive income scheme that never dies. 62 years old and going strong.

    Here's a statement of their current philosophy: "Amway's success is measured not only in economic terms, but in the credibility we earn. We acknowledge the uniqueness created in each individual. Every person is worthy of respect and deserves fair treatment and the opportunity to succeed..."

    The new Amway recruit is now termed an "Independent Business Owner" or IBO. The four fundamentals are "freedom, family, hope, reward". Sure looks like they are speaking directly to women.

    Anyway, there is certainly money being made here, as Amway racks up $billions in sales. But after the 100 or so at the top get their payoff, there isn't much left for the hard working million "IBO's" at the bottom.

    Possibly a red pill approach can be applied to business opportunities. A really good new idea isn't likely to get a lot of social support. You have to slog it out on your own. If someone is trying to sell you a business plan with lots of social support, and a hefty payoff after you work your ass off for 5 years, keep a firm hold on your wallet.

  15. #35
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    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    While we're asking questions, here's one. How many members have walked cause they got better things to do than get trolled? Again, we don't know. But I know this. For every one a you new guys breathing life into this place, I can think of five guys who aren't here no more. Am not blaming it all on the trolls, but as you may have noticed, some of us have a low tolerance.

    Poking through intro's and banned members, it doesn't look like we flamed too many innocents. But we likely put the fear in some lurkers, and that I would think, does us more harm than the guys we were wrong about. Note to lurkers; stupid threads and dumb questions are ok, we were once rookies too. But if you sneak in on a Saturday night just to zing the little people, don't be surprised to find some sarcasm at the bottom of the page.

    When a little more believable millionaire comes along, he'll be welcomed.
    Every day I make the world a little bit worse.

  16. #36

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    One false accusation is all it will take. One and done and off to prison you go.

  17. #37
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    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsmith79 View Post
    However, if I can touch on specifically on the concept of compounding interest - it is the basis behind investment, insurance and good retirement planning and many videos are available online which illustrates what one can do with the power of compound interest (eg. Investing Basics: The Power of Compounding - YouTube).

    I believe the interest rates you're thinking about are specific to bank deposit interest rates, which have remained low for years. For investors and bankers, the term is used to refer to returns on various investment products, be it in bonds or equities (stocks like Tesla, Microsoft, Amazon, etc) or cryptos.
    I encourage you to review the following sources of information on the subject:

    https://onelook.com/?w=compound+interest&ls=a
    https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=com...nterest&ia=web

    If you look at those definitions and how it is being used then you will see. I do see how it is being used in that video you linked. It is odd that they're generalizing all types of investment returns as interest. The video is from a retail brokerage and the target audience is people who aren't familiar with investing. Maybe they're worried about confusing people with the other sorts of ROI like dividends and capital gains. The purpose of the video is to educate people about the benefits of reinvesting returns. Being particular with the terminology would do nothing to further that purpose. And yet, the OP here, who claims to be a millionaire business owner, strikes me as someone who would know the difference supposing his claims were true.

  18. #38

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    The Principles are there for a reason, and the mods have been stressing that no one gets a pass. In its current form, the Principles aren't being adhered to when we shoot first and ask questions later, so perhaps it should be updated.

    Given this example of what has happened:

    (i) Perhaps the forum Principles should indicate that there is a policy whereby the established members get to shoot the newbies first and ask questions later;

    (ii) Perhaps the Principles should indicate that only the established member's measurement of credulity matters. All newbies better watch everything they post, as it should fit into something 'believable' to the established members or they'll get a Salem witch trial where they get hung to death if they are found guilty or drowned to death if they are innocent;

    (iii) Perhaps the Principles should reflect that even if the site owner found it believable enough to like the post and to comment that he did the same, established members should be able to continue shooting the newbies.

    It would be more honest that way and at least the newbies would be better prepared to watch their words and posts.

  19. #39

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    Quote Originally Posted by dsf978e View Post
    The purpose of the video is to educate people about the benefits of reinvesting returns. Being particular with the terminology would do nothing to further that purpose. And yet, the OP here, who claims to be a millionaire business owner, strikes me as someone who would know the difference supposing his claims were true.
    I hate to be pedantic, but you are aware that being particular with the terminology would detract from educating people who aren't familiar with investing - Why then do you automatically assume that OP does not share the same view? After all he's speaking broadly to a forum full of people and it is a fair assumption that not all are financially literate?

    Which is more reasonable for OP to post what he did - was it written to convey a general idea that one should let one's money compound or was it to demonstrate his financial literacy? If he had written reinvesting capital gains and dividend returns, would you be convinced or still remain skeptical?

    I think if we're honest with ourselves, we bristled because he stated weekly expenses that seem frivolous and so out-of-ordinary for most that it seems like a brag unless one has experienced it or done it before. If I'm correct, the line of thinking goes 'it seems extra-ordinary and a brag, therefore one can only conclude that it MUST be a troll'. So the guns come out blazing before any effort is made to question his authenticity. Had he left out those paragraph of expenses and kept everything the same, I think there would have been a lot less friction with his post. It shows how a few mis-considered words can turn a whole forum hostile.

    Regardless, this forum has its Principles, which are supposed to apply to all participants, as a baseline in conduct. We're supposed to ask questions first and then shoot later, however when established members seem to ignore the Principles at will and continue to state that they would ignore them, I don't think we have set a good example for the rest of our junior members to follow.

    That I seem to be the only one speaking up for some fairness in future conduct is disappointing. No one is willing to stand up for what is right eh?

  20. #40

    Re: Women make good servants but horrible masters

    You all put him down but that is exactly how one does it.

    ''Ultimately you are limited by your IQ and work ethic. Be alone and read and think until you are rich. Capture, transform and harness the cultural forces hurtling your way. Transmute the negative into a positive. Be miserable or focus on solutions. Instead of marriage pay for the maid/cook/whore/surrogate/nanny

    This is the very equation of success.


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