Thread: What's your thoughts on why most men cannot live without women

Doesn't matter how much the man know about female nature. He can be the bluest of blue pills or the blackest black piller and everything in-between.

They will all still long after women.

Take for example the in cels, they are not selected by women. Instead of accepting that women don't want them and female nature in general and simply enjoy life without women. They fall into despair

Or take the red piller PUA, instead of grinding and hustling for their own Glory, they do it for a women that will at best she does nothing and at worse she take nearly everything you worked so hard to get without a ounce of remorse.

It seems so crazy to me that men especially now a days keep dealing with women sexually. Do not not want freedom? Do that not know about robot pussy? I really don't get it

But what is your thoughts on men desire for the female ran plantation?

Edit: when I say red piller I meant to say PUA, sorry for the confusion

Sexual drive, societal pressure, family pressure, peer pressure, low self esteem, need for external validation. These are extremely difficult for a lot of men to overcome. Then you have Disney throwing their heads into a spin with their fairy tales. For a lot of men, BP is life and will always be. It's like watching a zombie apocalypse in slow motion.

Originally Posted by FangBlade

They will all still long after women.

I don't understand what you mean by this...for sex, marriage, companionship, what?

Or take the red piller, instead of grinding and hustling for their own Glory, they do it for a women that will at best she does nothing and at worse she take nearly everything you worked so hard to get without a ounce of remorse.

That is contradictory in practice. Isn't the point of redpill (at least if it's indeed the redpill you took and because of it has delved deep into the rabbit hole) that you don't do that for women?

To answer the question, men can live without women. It may not be popular but certain men have been doing it since time immemorial. Given the hypersexualized society we live in it makes it incredibly difficult to do due to one's biological urges and one's natural tendency to buy into what the group is into. But MGTOW men exist for a reason...

Truth is, most men haven't tried it. When their not in a relationship, most men are trying to get in one or at least chasing women. I was that guy. Once you break the cycle, you get a lot of clarity about the true nature of women. You can look back and catalog how you've been used and/or mistreated by women and the dating scene becomes a lot less appealing. Essentially dating is an exercise in busting your ass for an opportunity to get fucked over.

Originally Posted by FangBlade

Or take the red piller, instead of grinding and hustling for their own Glory, they do it for a women that will at best she does nothing and at worse she take nearly everything you worked so hard to get without a ounce of remorse.

Say what?

Maybe you could be a little more specific about who you're talking about!

MGTOW are red-pilled, do we do what we do for the glory of women?

Paul Elam wrote about "why most men can't live without women" in his book "Men. Women. Relationships. Surviving the plague of modern masculinity." I know that Elam is MRA and not MGTOW. But the book has some good insights. Here's kind of a long excerpt. I've boiled down about 5 pages into a couple long paragraphs:

"That fear is the fear of losing a woman's love and approval. It is a fear so deep and so pernicious that men will go to insane lengths to preserve the illusion of love, even when being bitch-slapped with the fact that the love isn't there and never was. [...] It's been trained into us over the course of countless generations, all lessons hinging on the Romantic Chivalry narrative, one that demands men serve women mindlessly. [...] How did this level of irrational, destructive fear ever become the default setting for men? [...] The critical, formative years of existence is dominated by the female presence and the female will, which is often self-serving, unhealthy, and for boys, emotionally incestuous. Fathers, whether absent or present, contribute to the problem. Where there is no male influence, the mother often runs amok. [...] Where the father is still present, he is often the enforcer of the same sick agenda. The term, “you just wait till your father gets home,” is the young male child's first experience with proxy violence. [...] At some point, he enters the female-dominated primary education system, where his coercion into satisfying the will of women is institutionalized. [...] And there is yet another key factor that puts the icing on this misandric cake: Romantic Chivalry. For every man's entire life, he is inundated with the message of providing sacrificial, unconditional love and dedication in exchange for the appearance of approval." (p. 38-42)

Elam says that the culmination is the threat of leaving, rejection, and abandonment by a wife or girlfriend. "Her rejection was his mother's rejection, his teacher's disapproval and somewhere in his mind there unconsciously lurked a proxy agent to punish him for his failure at Romantic Chivalry. [...] When she left, she was taking his manhood with him. [...] And that is the lesson; the moral if you will. Romantic Chivalry isn't love. It's just glorified begging. It makes narcissists and children of women, and hapless pawns of men, who on close inspection do not resemble anything we've ever honored about men. It robs them of true bravery. It weakens their spines. It makes them less of everything men are supposed to be." (p. 43)

Originally Posted by Hedon

I don't understand what you mean by this...for sex, marriage, companionship, what?



That is contradictory in practice. Isn't the point of redpill (at least if it's indeed the redpill you took and because of it has delved deep into the rabbit hole) that you don't do that for women?

To answer the question, men can live without women. It may not be popular but certain men have been doing it since time immemorial. Given the hypersexualized society we live in it makes it incredibly difficult to do due to one's biological urges and one's natural tendency to buy into what the group is into. But MGTOW men exist for a reason...

Sorry I should have said pua instead of red pill,
Not every red piller is a pua. All though a lot of them seem to be, at least on youtube

As for "longng" it basically as you said, sex and companionship. Most men even with red or black pill knowledge still want to have relationships with women even with the mountain of evidence that women in this day and age are too dangerous to deal with.

Lol then again if too many men realize the truth about women then human would have died out a long time ago.

Originally Posted by MGTOWLife

Paul Elam wrote about "why most men can't live without women" in his book "Men. Women. Relationships. Surviving the plague of modern masculinity." I know that Elam is MRA and not MGTOW. But the book has some good insights. Here's kind of a long excerpt. I've boiled down about 5 pages into a couple long paragraphs:

"That fear is the fear of losing a woman's love and approval. It is a fear so deep and so pernicious that men will go to insane lengths to preserve the illusion of love, even when being bitch-slapped with the fact that the love isn't there and never was. [...] It's been trained into us over the course of countless generations, all lessons hinging on the Romantic Chivalry narrative, one that demands men serve women mindlessly. [...] How did this level of irrational, destructive fear ever become the default setting for men? [...] The critical, formative years of existence is dominated by the female presence and the female will, which is often self-serving, unhealthy, and for boys, emotionally incestuous. Fathers, whether absent or present, contribute to the problem. Where there is no male influence, the mother often runs amok. [...] Where the father is still present, he is often the enforcer of the same sick agenda. The term, “you just wait till your father gets home,” is the young male child's first experience with proxy violence. [...] At some point, he enters the female-dominated primary education system, where his coercion into satisfying the will of women is institutionalized. [...] And there is yet another key factor that puts the icing on this misandric cake: Romantic Chivalry. For every man's entire life, he is inundated with the message of providing sacrificial, unconditional love and dedication in exchange for the appearance of approval." (p. 38-42)

Elam says that the culmination is the threat of leaving, rejection, and abandonment by a wife or girlfriend. "Her rejection was his mother's rejection, his teacher's disapproval and somewhere in his mind there unconsciously lurked a proxy agent to punish him for his failure at Romantic Chivalry. [...] When she left, she was taking his manhood with him. [...] And that is the lesson; the moral if you will. Romantic Chivalry isn't love. It's just glorified begging. It makes narcissists and children of women, and hapless pawns of men, who on close inspection do not resemble anything we've ever honored about men. It robs them of true bravery. It weakens their spines. It makes them less of everything men are supposed to be." (p. 43)

I think the bolded part is spot on. I've seen it with my own eyes first hand through work colleagues, personal friends, and even myself (20 years ago).

My best mate married a Chinese woman in 2009 based on a dream he had of being blissfully married to a more passive, feminine, oriental woman than UK women can offer. Fast forward to 2020 and they seperated. They've been living apart since, and have a 10 year old daughter. I won't detail too much of how it was, but basically every time she raised the bar, he'd jump to it in the hope of winning her approval, and she'd just raise the bar. She only ever once said "I love you" to him, and that was after he maxed out a credit card taking her to an expensive spa weekend. Yes, it really was like that. I'm not exaggerating for the sake of MGTOW kudos. He turned to cocaine, gambling, and alcohol, the latter of whicgh he still struggle with. His dream turned to a nightmare. You'd expect him to noew be a red-pilled MGTOW by now, right? Wrong. Read on.

Last week the UK went through a 3 day heat wave where we saw temperatures reach over 40C/104F. My old 84 year old neighbour died during it, as did a few thousand others. There were wildfires galore, workplaces shut, and it was nicer to wear ice cream rather than eat it. It was dreadful. My mate, on the hottest day, put his rubbish/garbage out, and for some reason the door locked behind him, where it usually doesn't. He had no phone, no keys, and was in his socks. His immediate neighbour who could buzz him in (communal door opened by intercom) was out. He was stuck outside with no shade or water. He asked a stranger (a man) to borrow his phone, and the only number he knew by heart was his wife's. He rang her, and asked her to come pick him up and take him to his mum's, where he'd seek refuge from the burning sun until he knew his neighbour would be home, and let him in. He stressed it was kind of an emergency. The total journey for his wife would have been about 8 miles, and would have taken about 20-25 minutes. She refused. Her reason was "my air conditioning doesn't work", and she advised him to ring his mum. But he didn't know his mum's number, and pleaded with her to come collect him. He was melting in the 40C/104F heat. She said she'd ring his mum, and for him to wait for her. He had to take her on her word, and hope she'd reach his mum. his mum turned up 20 minutes later, and he was saved. It wasn't quite a life or death situation, but it's still deeply unpleasant, and could have led to dehydration.

For those in the midst of red pill rage, please skip the next line.

The next day my mate called his wife, (I can barely type this), and apologised to her for being a nuisance. He told me he could "see it from her side".

When I talk to him, I can see he still hangs onto the residue of his original dream, and can't seem to completely accept their marriage is over, and that she doesn't even like him, yet alone love or respect him. But I think he still harbours an illusion of love.

There are two realities to women. 1) the reality that exists in blue-pilled mens' minds, and 2) how women really are. Men would be best served accepting #2.

Originally Posted by FangBlade

Sorry I should have said pua instead of red pill,
Not every red piller is a pua. All though a lot of them seem to be, at least on youtube

As for "longng" it basically as you said, sex and companionship. Most men even with red or black pill knowledge still want to have relationships with women even with the mountain of evidence that women in this day and age are too dangerous to deal with.

Lol then again if too many men realize the truth about women then human would have died out a long time ago.

Hmm. Sadly you’re probably right, but here’s a thought for you, and to any of our PUA members which will surely cause some antagonism, but this is a personal opinion and NOT MGTOW philosophy (if there is such a thing).

PUAs are still so enamoured with women that they will go to any extreme to attract them. They’ll get buff or hone their mannerisms just to attract the wymminz.

So they don’t want to tie them down, just pump ‘n dump, so what? They are still playing THEIR game.

Remember what they said on Roots. "But I've always worked this land. Where would I go, what would I do?"

I understand if that's the case if female nature wasn't widely known. But for God sakes the women are twerking on TikTok talking about how much they hate and use men.

At some point they got to accept the fact they women are just not worth it.

when I see a specific man with some blind allegiance to a destructive relationship with a specific toxic woman, that not even he can break from, even when he is aware of how destructive it is... my advice to him is to pay attention to both of the women that he is interacting with. This usually draws a look of confusion as these men are laser focused on a particular woman.

So, I have to explain to him that there are in fact, 2 women in his story. The first is the woman in his head. That woman is worthy and honorable and rightfully deserves that attention and sacrifice that he is making on her behalf in an attempt to win and keep her approval. That woman is actually something of a prize that will be an asset in his life.

Unfortunately, that woman exists only in his head.

The second woman may bear some resemblance to the first woman. And in his mind, that man may not be able to discern the difference. The second woman may have gone far out of her way to impersonate the first woman. But they are not the same woman. There are two of them.

Confusion reigns with a man who believes that he and his failures are the reason that the second woman does not display the behavior that can be expected of the first woman. Hence the ever increasing efforts and sacrifice of this man in an attempt to create that behavior. In her attempt at masquerading as the first woman, the second woman has an enormous amount of help from many other voices in our environment that join her in reassuring him that if he just tries a little harder, sacrifices a little more, tolerates one more episode of otherwise unacceptable behavior, he will get the expected arrival and behavior of the first woman. His family, his church, the news media, advertising media, other women, etc etc etc...

I will be the first to acknowledge how sad and disappointed I was to finally realize that the woman in my head is long gone, if she ever existed at all. It was like a funeral of someone I really admired and cared about and wanted to spend time and money on. Acknowledging that this woman is gone is enormously unpleasant.

Many frustrated men will acknowledge that the second woman is not behaving as they would like. They just aren't willing to attend the funeral of the first, and go on with their lives...

What's your thoughts on why most men cannot live without women?

To be honest here, I don't understand the question? I can only answer that question with another question, how do the men that live with women, live with women?

I have no idea how someone "can" live with a woman?

The question simply does not compute, no matter how hard I try!

Those thought receptors must be all dead! Only real question is was it murder or suicide?

Originally Posted by BrainPilot

when I see a specific man with some blind allegiance to a destructive relationship with a specific toxic woman, that not even he can break from, even when he is aware of how destructive it is... my advice to him is to pay attention to both of the women that he is interacting with. This usually draws a look of confusion as these men are laser focused on a particular woman.

So, I have to explain to him that there are in fact, 2 women in his story. The first is the woman in his head. That woman is worthy and honorable and rightfully deserves that attention and sacrifice that he is making on her behalf in an attempt to win and keep her approval. That woman is actually something of a prize that will be an asset in his life.

Unfortunately, that woman exists only in his head.

The second woman may bear some resemblance to the first woman. And in his mind, that man may not be able to discern the difference. The second woman may have gone far out of her way to impersonate the first woman. But they are not the same woman. There are two of them.

Confusion reigns with a man who believes that he and his failures are the reason that the second woman does not display the behavior that can be expected of the first woman. Hence the ever increasing efforts and sacrifice of this man in an attempt to create that behavior. In her attempt at masquerading as the first woman, the second woman has an enormous amount of help from many other voices in our environment that join her in reassuring him that if he just tries a little harder, sacrifices a little more, tolerates one more episode of otherwise unacceptable behavior, he will get the expected arrival and behavior of the first woman. His family, his church, the news media, advertising media, other women, etc etc etc...

I will be the first to acknowledge how sad and disappointed I was to finally realize that the woman in my head is long gone, if she ever existed at all. It was like a funeral of someone I really admired and cared about and wanted to spend time and money on. Acknowledging that this woman is gone is enormously unpleasant.

Many frustrated men will acknowledge that the second woman is not behaving as they would like. They just aren't willing to attend the funeral of the first, and go on with their lives...

Spot on analysis s.

To complicate matters even further, and to raise the difficulty of burying that first woman is the fact that every time, without exception IMO, the first woman did exist exactly as described in the beginning. In my case, she was a dream come true from the time we met till the wedding. She even kept up the charade through the first few years of marriage. I remember fucking her till my dick was like hamburger. Almost daily. She was a unicorn.

Shit started going down hill when we had kids, and I started making real money. By the end, when I caught her cheating and she divorce raped the shit out of me, it drove me damn near to suicide.

It’s uncanny how this scenario repeats itself in I would venture to say, tens of thousands of cases.

Because when men are young they think with their little head, and by the time they are old and wise enough to think with their big head they already were chained, deported to the plantation and have to work to serve their mistress and her basterds.

Originally Posted by FangBlade

Sorry I should have said pua instead of red pill,
Not every red piller is a pua. All though a lot of them seem to be, at least on youtube

As for "longng" it basically as you said, sex and companionship. Most men even with red or black pill knowledge still want to have relationships with women even with the mountain of evidence that women in this day and age are too dangerous to deal with.

Lol then again if too many men realize the truth about women then human would have died out a long time ago.

Maybe we are in the beginning stages of humanity dying out. Maybe we have been for 100 years and it’s a process that take several hundred years. The nature of women has been boiled down to a science…birth rates and marriage are at all time lows. Less intelligent humans will of course breed indiscriminately, but they will eventually wipe themselves out too through poverty/famine/war.

Many men come face to face with freedom and recoil in fear.

Originally Posted by Jackoff

PUAs are still so enamoured with women

I think this is the essential part of your comment. When I read about PUA stuff many years back it tapped into my blue pill thirst and made me feel that I had a cheat code for slaking that thirst. However the inner core of who I was back then was someone who put women on a pedestal and was wanting to have more sex and more girlfriends before finding someone to settle down with. Well, I got to do both and somehow escaped being one of the blue pill undead miserably shuffling about, moaning constantly of having no free time and money and always being tired.

The difference between the MGTOW mindset and anything else, including PUA red pill stuff, is that now it is impossible for me to be enamoured of a woman. They cannot survive without men. They cannot build any civilisations or advance the human race in any way other than by giving birth to those men who will. I think for me it would be sad to be a creature that is mostly fat and is ruled by emotion. Sometimes I pity them because I would not want to be such a hopeless being. One that is incapable of making themselves accountable and therefore fall prey to a neotenous narcissism. By which i mean that they are childlike egotists even when fully grown and mature. A being who hangs their whole identity and sense of self worth with their physical appearance, and cannot chop wood and carry water. A being that is almost cripplingly insecure by default. Who cannot even tell the truth amongst themselves about who they really are (why can't I find a nice guy???). A being that would rather believe in the lie that makes them feel good than any truth that is unpalatable. A being that cannot truly like others who are like them, in the way that men can really love their close friends. I cannot fathom wanting to harness my time and my money to this kind of being, and the women that I have interacted with in the many decades of my life up to and including being married to one, are now ample evidence of the fact that there aren't any 'good ones out there, you just need to find them'.

I don't hate women. They are beings that are trying to maximise their own chances of surviving and thriving. Like every other being that exists in nature. Unfortunately for us, women maximise their survival by treating men like plow horses. PUAs are misguided in thinking that they can interact with women and come out on top. That's as ridiculous as the plow horse thinking that he can come out on top in the relationship with the farmer. The farmer sets the terms of their relationship, and so does the woman. The only choice the horse has, is whether he wants to live as a slave on the plantation, or live free in the wild.

I watch with detachment and shake my head in wry amusement, at the way that my genes and the testosterone that I am grateful for, still want me to look at curves and tits and ass whilst at the same time my mind is fully aware that these creatures can't love you and trying to build a partnership with them will ultimately make you miserable. Its like a cosmic joke. We human males are in a way like those male spiders that are killed by the female spiders once they have copulated. Except with human males it isn't a swift and violent end it is death by a thousand cuts being bled dry of your resources and emotionally hen-pecked into submission til death or divorce. Therefore I would never waste an ounce of energy trying to pursue them like these PUAs do because it would be like pursuing my own demise.

Those guys think that spending the whole of your life "holding frame" so that you can ride the tiger and not get eaten by the tiger are deluding you. Once you marry or cohabit - you are in her frame, society's frame and the legal system's frame.

Why do men still want women?

Human nature: As much as most of us do not want to admit it, male nature plays a large part in our lives. Human nature has had millions of years of evolution to engrain into each one of us an instinct drive to have sex (reproduce). The female body is made for it, and most of female nature can be explained because of reproduction. The primary male hormone testosterone gives us strength and drive to reproduce. If this was not the case humans would have died out years ago. PUA falls in here.... Proof: Men don't need to have a relationship or even know the female to release sperm... Porn.

Positive female actions: Admiration, companionship, social interaction etc.

Drugs: Dopamine and norepinephrine etc.

Social Conditioning: The "Disney Dream", treat her special and she will look after you, etc... The lies we were all told growing up... Marry her and have sex when ever you want...

Men of all species are biologically addicted to the female of their species. It's what keeps the species propagating. Male black widow spiders, praying mantis and honey bees don't even survive the mating process and yet they are compelled to participate. There was a study about fish that I no longer have the specifics on. The females bellies turn a specific shade of red when they are fertile. In the experiment they dropped bricks of the same color into tanks of male fish and the mating frenzy ensued. No female fish were even present.

This stuff is deep in our hard wiring. If you've escaped it, consider yourself lucky. If you have not, then you would be wise to find another outlet for it. Give Sexual Transmutation a try. You need to consciously redirect that energy into something productive. If you stay in the animal mindset, you will be ruled by your baser desires. Much like the animals mentioned above, you may not survive the process.