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  1. #1

    The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    I've seen this subject come up a few times in this forum -- the idea that you need romantic love, in order to live a complete, whole life. Most guys here know intellectually that this is not true, but they still get dragged down by it from time to time. That's not surprising, because the conditioning is so strong and persistent.

    I figured I should write an article about it, taking this idea apart. I go into sources of the conditioning, then provide some ideas that may help with the deprogramming. Take a look. Hopefully you will find it helpful or thought provoking. Cheers.


    https://un-coupled.com/?p=243

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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    I think that is a concept which is rapidly dying. It probably worked well enough for most back in the day where once you were married you were tied to your vows "Till Death Do us Part".

    It doesn't work like that now, people are still trying to find "The One" well into their 50's and even 60's now. I work with some women who are in their 40's and still dating, most of them are Lesbian which would be a very unstable relationship type in my opinion. They seem happier when they are in a relationship but is that really just a sex thing?

    To me the idea of a relationship completing you is like saying "I will be happy once I have Chevy/Vintage Guitar/Tennis trophy" etc etc If you need something external to complete you than you will never be complete.

    Happiness is also fleeting. What you want is contentment or joy, something far longer lasting and sustainable.

  3. #3

    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    Let me play the devil's advocat for a little bit:

    I believe everyone knows the phrases: "Women force men to take the red pill / Women are the ones who redpill men / We don't recruit, women do this for us."

    If this is true, wouldn't this make us, MGTOWs, collateral damage?

    One could argue that there were no systematic flaws in searching for love and maintaining relationships, but that the females who we experienced in our lives were badly instructed, like a incompetent teacher who scares away his pupil or a doctor who gives the wrong treatment to his patient.

    Gents, maybe we just never met the female pros. You know, the really skilled ones who hide the blade well enough from men while sucking on our ... life.

    Okay and now in all seriousness, if only women redpill guys, wouldn't this mean that we should be thankful for telling us the fantasy of relationships and later destroying said fantasy? Do we, in the end, need their shitty behaviour which saved us from more terrific experiences?

    Questions over questions.

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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    I've seen this subject come up a few times in this forum -- the idea that you need romantic love, in order to live a complete, whole life. Most guys here know intellectually that this is not true, but they still get dragged down by it from time to time. That's not surprising, because the conditioning is so strong and persistent.

    I figured I should write an article about it, taking this idea apart. I go into sources of the conditioning, then provide some ideas that may help with the deprogramming. Take a look. Hopefully you will find it helpful or thought provoking. Cheers.


    https://un-coupled.com/?p=243
    Absolutely outstanding article, sir. One of the best I've read in years.

    For a complete life, don’t add more. Subtract.


    This quote is simple, but profound. MGTOW and minimalism go hand in hand.

  5. #5

    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    On the music one — I liked country music for a few decades until I started learning about women and then realizing that 98% of country music is about some woman. If you spend some years listening you will be brain washed into thinking your entire existence revolves around women. Ugh, mist of the songs I used to dig nauseate me now.

  6. #6

    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    The whole idea of "romantic love" is deeply naive.
    Whoever thinks that you can build something stable on a feeling is soundly mistaken.
    That's why you have so many divorces. That's why the main reason for divorce
    is "I'm NoT HaPpY".

    Do you know why people stay in marriages? Because of sheer fucking will.
    Because the whole point of LTR is not instant gratification but raising another human being.

    Society often likes to speak about weak men but so are women. They can't even do basic chores that many men can.
    Cooking, more often than not, is off the table. Cleaning anything, self-hygiene - well, that's too difficult.
    Most of them are such a failures they can't even keep a man.

    I've recently listened to Hammerhand's livestream Sunday Sermon.
    (BTW I strongly reccommend watching - 4/5 testimonies that proove the phrase: "MGTOW saves lives".)

    What I found interesting is what Hammer claims his ex has told him b4 divorce - "I can't control you".
    Then I realized that this is a common motiff over 90% of reddit divorce stories I've listened to (True Story, StrongSuccesfulMale).
    Most of those women perceive total control as a way to keep a man. They often display masculine and confrontational attitude.
    They try to force a man to be with her by manipulation:
    (using children, babytrapping, scaring off his current gf, gaslighting/marriage councelor, decrease his confidence and perceived SMV).

    I think that like men, women also have misconceptions regarding relationships.
    They've all drank feminist kool-aid. They believe that marriage is all about them - their children, their house, their money.
    Men are pigs who, given the chance, will even sleep with a hippo. They buy stupid shit like cars, computers and games.
    They have totally unproductive and stupid hobbies like collecting, building custom stuff and playing games.
    Those time and money could be better spent, benefit the family. They can't fathom
    how can men be so wasteful, instead of focusing more on buying better clothes, handbags and cosmetics.
    Instead of doing stupid shit they could spend quality time with their wife. Isn't that what they have a wife for?
    You see, It's only natural that women need to keep men's stupidity in check in order to ensure their commitment.



    Maybe you need a woman to have complete life. Some people need children, some can't live alone.
    The others just can't control their biology. Maybe they truly need a woman.
    I've met many people, but I am yet to encounter a man who unironically wants a bitchpilled woman.
    Last edited by bazalgette; August 3, 2022 at 10:50 AM.
    " A man without purpose finds it in women " - UCXIV

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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    Quote Originally Posted by bazalgette View Post
    [snipped...]
    I think that like men, women also have misconceptions regarding relationships.
    They've all drank feminist kool-aid. They believe that marriage is all about them - their children, their house, their money.
    Men are pigs who, given the chance, will even sleep with a hippo. They buy stupid shit like cars, computers and games.
    They have totally unproductive and stupid hobbies like collecting, building custom stuff and playing games.
    Those time and money could be better spent, benefit the family. They can't fathom
    how can men be so wasteful, instead of focusing more on buying better clothes, handbags and cosmetics.
    Instead of doing stupid shit they could spend quality time with their wife. Isn't that what they have a wife for?
    You see, It's only natural that women need to keep men's stupidity in check in order to ensure their commitment.[...snipped]
    Great post!

    Yeah, the current crop of psychologists and marriage counselors is feminist to the core, and they teach that women need to take the lead in relationships, because men are incompetent, unable to handle emotional things, selfish, and basically just cavemen.

    For example, a lot of modern marriage counseling embraces the feminist idea that men can't handle emotions as well as women and teaches that, instead of arguing, husbands should just let their wives take the lead in marriages.

    Example: Gottman's book "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" is considered one of the leading books on marriage counseling today. And it basically just tells men to shut up, quit arguing, and let women dictate everything.


    Feminists and the psychological community take their talking points from each other and create an echo chamber saying that men are awful creatures and women need to be in charge.

    Old news, but here is where the American Psychological Association declared that "traditional masculinity" is "harmful" a couple years ago: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ul/2538520002/

    Last edited by MGTOWLife; August 3, 2022 at 12:40 PM.

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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoking Wizard View Post
    I believe everyone knows the phrases: "Women force men to take the red pill / Women are the ones who redpill men / We don't recruit, women do this for us."

    If this is true, wouldn't this make us, MGTOWs, collateral damage?
    Yes, correct. MGTOW is collateral damage to women Red Pilling men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoking Wizard View Post
    Okay and now in all seriousness, if only women redpill guys, wouldn't this mean that we should be thankful for telling us the fantasy of relationships and later destroying said fantasy? Do we, in the end, need their shitty behaviour which saved us from more terrific experiences?
    I do not think there is a man out there that wanted to be Red Pilled. We really did want to believe the Disney Dream, most of us had a crack at making it happen.... This is where RP Rage comes in, to admit, that we believed the lies, to admit that some of the closest people we know lied to us, that even our mothers show signs of female nature (AWALT). TRP was forced, not freely taken. Once RP'd there is no going back....

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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    Quote Originally Posted by MGTOWLife View Post
    [snipped...]Feminists and the psychological community take their talking points from each other and create an echo chamber saying that men are awful creatures and women need to be in charge.[...snipped]

    Just to add to what I said above: In his book "Men. Women. Relationships," Paul Elam has some great commentary on the state of modern relationships.


    Elam suggests that most marital problems emanate from the woman: She has become bored, "She is chronically unhappy, and she's making sure she does not suffer that state alone. You can see clearly that she has abundant reasons to enjoy life and that her dissatisfactions and frustrations are self-chosen but getting her to see that is like trying to scratch through granite with your fingernails. It's just not happening. [...] Your weekends, which you used to enjoy, are now emotional marathons. You pray for overtime and find more and more excuses to leave the house alone. Your conflicts (which were rare) used to be solved with relative ease. They have now become dead ends, bitter rounds of going nowhere. Every time you try to solve a problem it ends up feeling like you are circling the drain because she seems incapable of a single rational thought. Any expectations you have of her maturity and accountability are perceived as personal attacks."

    But Elam says not to go to see a marriage counselor with her.

    She isn't trying to find solutions to problems: "Well, in her mind she is because in her mind, you're the problem. If she can get you fixed, then her problems will be solved. She has no idea at all that she is, in fact, the source of a lot of the relationship's problems. She sees fixing you as a solution almost instinctively. She's been brainwashed her whole life into believing that all relationship problems are caused by men."

    And the marriage counseling industry is on board with that message. "Traditional therapy, especially marriage counseling, is a female-dominated consumer product. It is designed by women, for women. [...] At some point in her life, [your wife has] read their books or watched them on TV or taken in their material on the internet - all of it focused on the wrongness of men. She just knows that if she can corral you into a marriage counselor's office, it'll be tag team on you. And she is 100% right. Don't delude yourself otherwise."

    "Remember, the core of modern psychological training is ideological. That includes academicians who are steeped in profoundly retarded ideas like male privilege, patriarchy and other made-up non-realities they are pulling out of their asses these days. [...] They come from a standard of indoctrination that informs them you've been freaking wrong since the moment you were born with a penis. [...] There will never be a way in their sessions to address the facts that you aren't privileged and that she isn't a victim. Oh, and discussing the things she does to undermine the relationship? Forget about it. Push for it and the tag team will paint you as an abuser."

    Elam says that if you go into counseling, "you will find yourself sitting in front of two insufferable, insatiable bitches who will identify you as broken and in need of repair."

    Elam says that the answer is for men to look inside: "If you have problems in your marriage, the best thing you can do is indulge in some self-care. You might ask yourself why you are willing to live with all this misery to begin with. [...] The only shot you have at restoring balance to your relationship is to quit taking shit. Your only hope is to reconnect to your values, to your boundaries, and live what you believe. It's likely that your values don't include making allowances for abusive harridans. The key is whether you're willing to see the harridan walk out for good. If you're not, you're fucked. If you are, you can't lose. It's just that simple. She will either change or leave if your values and your willingness to live by them is intact. No marriage counselor needed or wanted." (p. 125)

  10. #10

    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    Great article EH. Pretty much spot on.

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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    "The precondition of a complete life is quiet and simplicity." Thanks for this gem.
    “Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner” - Neil McCauley, Heat (1995).

  12. #12

    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    Thanks for the comments, guys. Some responses below...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rock View Post
    Absolutely outstanding article, sir. One of the best I've read in years.

    ... This quote is simple, but profound. MGTOW and minimalism go hand in hand.
    Thank you. It took me a little longer than usual to write, for some reason. I kept finding different ways to say what I was trying to say.

    I got into the idea of "voluntary simplicity" (now known as minimalism) about 30 years ago. It made a big impact on my life, not just financially (I was able to retire early) but more importantly with day-to-day functioning and peace of mind. The idea of eliminating the clutter and all the dumb, socially programmed pursuits in order to focus on what really matters -- that was a great clarifying theme for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kryptic View Post
    I think that is a concept which is rapidly dying. It probably worked well enough for most back in the day where once you were married you were tied to your vows "Till Death Do us Part".

    It doesn't work like that now, people are still trying to find "The One" well into their 50's and even 60's now. I work with some women who are in their 40's and still dating, most of them are Lesbian which would be a very unstable relationship type in my opinion. They seem happier when they are in a relationship but is that really just a sex thing?

    To me the idea of a relationship completing you is like saying "I will be happy once I have Chevy/Vintage Guitar/Tennis trophy" etc etc If you need something external to complete you than you will never be complete.

    Happiness is also fleeting. What you want is contentment or joy, something far longer lasting and sustainable.
    It's interesting that the happiness effect for marriage is not all that different than the happiness effect for other external changes and achievements -- job promotion, big salary bump, winning the trophies like you're talking about.

    I like the notion of contentment or peace of mind better than "happiness," too. Part of the problem with "happiness" is that it has a lot of different definitions. So what is happiness, really? Another problem, related to the first, is that it's very easy to confuse happiness with pleasure. And so then, in order to "pursue happiness," you pursue pleasure -- dopamine hits in whatever form you can find them. We know where that leads. Philosophers have warned us about that trap for millennia. The more you chase momentary pleasures, the unhappier you become.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edwardhaskell View Post
    On the music one — I liked country music for a few decades until I started learning about women and then realizing that 98% of country music is about some woman. If you spend some years listening you will be brain washed into thinking your entire existence revolves around women. Ugh, mist of the songs I used to dig nauseate me now.
    Yesterday, I heard a girl say she was studying songwriting. I think it was country western. She said her songwriting instructor -- get this -- said that most people listening were women, so "you should always make the woman in the song the victim."


    Quote Originally Posted by MGTOWLife View Post
    Great post!

    Yeah, the current crop of psychologists and marriage counselors is feminist to the core, and they teach that women need to take the lead in relationships, because men are incompetent, unable to handle emotional things, selfish, and basically just cavemen.

    For example, a lot of modern marriage counseling embraces the feminist idea that men can't handle emotions as well as women and teaches that, instead of arguing, husbands should just let their wives take the lead in marriages.

    Example: Gottman's book "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" is considered one of the leading books on marriage counseling today. And it basically just tells men to shut up, quit arguing, and let women dictate everything.


    Feminists and the psychological community take their talking points from each other and create an echo chamber saying that men are awful creatures and women need to be in charge.

    Old news, but here is where the American Psychological Association declared that "traditional masculinity" is "harmful" a couple years ago: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ul/2538520002/

    I'm a retired psychologist myself, so I know some of this is true. Psychology has become (didn't used to be) a female-dominated, politically correct profession. When the American Psychological Assn. issued the Toxic Masculinity statement, I resigned my membership. When I told the receptionist why, she said they'd been getting a lot of people resigning over the same thing -- so a bit of good news there, I suppose.

    It's not a monolithic profession, and most of the people I worked with (including the women) were good, decent people, trying to do their best in difficult situations. I should say, though, that I didn't work in the marital or couples counseling field. That may be a different animal. Paul Elam talks about that (as someone else mentioned). I can't speak to that, just to my own experience. I also worked in a "red pill" state and was spared some of the lunacy affecting my colleagues on, for example, the west coast.

    Even so, there was an implicit assumption that women were better at relationships, were expert at relationships, and men needed to play catchup. There was a subtle denigration of men and elevation of women. Men's failings were talked about, joked about. Women's failings were only occasionally mentioned.

    There was also a heavy emphasis on the Relationship as the true measure of mental health. People without Relationships (I mean romantic ones) were seen as pathological, disturbed, developmentally arrested, personality disordered, suspicious somehow. In general, modern psychology (not in academia, but in practice) seemed to vastly overemphasize the role of Relationships and, at the same time, downplay the role of other dimensions of existence (solitary pursuits, personal learning and growth, spirituality, meaning, creativity, etc.).

    I have to mention one particular dogma that really tripped me up. This was the idea that, in order to achieve a healthy, intimate relationship, you needed to be emotionally open and vulnerable. Unfortunately, I bought into that dogma hook line and sinker, and I tried for many years to create healthy, intimate relationships by being as honest, open, and emotionally vulnerable as I could be. You can guess how that turned out.

    That was one of my biggest "red pills" -- realizing that women actually don't respond well to emotional openness and vulnerability from men. Because of my indoctrination, I needed to hear if from about a dozen different sources before it finally sunk in. I felt very betrayed when I finally let it sink in. What a load of hogwash.

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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    One of the first things I learned here years ago was that marriage counselors were pro women and not to be trusted. Now it sounds like they've taken it a step further. Before they only blamed men for whatever problems the couple had. Now that's not enough and the plow horse must be obedient as well as useful. And they wonder why the barn is empty.
    Every day I make the world a little bit worse.

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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    Quote Originally Posted by Edwardhaskell View Post
    On the music one — I liked country music for a few decades until I started learning about women and then realizing that 98% of country music is about some woman. If you spend some years listening you will be brain washed into thinking your entire existence revolves around women. Ugh, mist of the songs I used to dig nauseate me now.
    True but you also get some Red Pill moments.

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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    Thank you. It took me a little longer than usual to write, for some reason. I kept finding different ways to say what I was trying to say.

    1/ I got into the idea of "voluntary simplicity" (now known as minimalism) about 30 years ago. It made a big impact on my life, not just financially (I was able to retire early) but more importantly with day-to-day functioning and peace of mind. The idea of eliminating the clutter and all the dumb, socially programmed pursuits in order to focus on what really matters -- that was a great clarifying theme for me.


    2/ It's interesting that the happiness effect for marriage is not all that different than the happiness effect for other external changes and achievements -- job promotion, big salary bump, winning the trophies like you're talking about.

    I like the notion of contentment or peace of mind better than "happiness," too. Part of the problem with "happiness" is that it has a lot of different definitions. So what is happiness, really? Another problem, related to the first, is that it's very easy to confuse happiness with pleasure. And so then, in order to "pursue happiness," you pursue pleasure -- dopamine hits in whatever form you can find them. We know where that leads. Philosophers have warned us about that trap for millennia. The more you chase momentary pleasures, the unhappier you become.



    Yesterday, I heard a girl say she was studying songwriting. I think it was country western. She said her songwriting instructor -- get this -- said that most people listening were women, so "you should always make the woman in the song the victim."


    3/ I'm a retired psychologist myself, so I know some of this is true. Psychology has become (didn't used to be) a female-dominated, politically correct profession. When the American Psychological Assn. issued the Toxic Masculinity statement, I resigned my membership. When I told the receptionist why, she said they'd been getting a lot of people resigning over the same thing -- so a bit of good news there, I suppose.

    It's not a monolithic profession, and most of the people I worked with (including the women) were good, decent people, trying to do their best in difficult situations. I should say, though, that I didn't work in the marital or couples counseling field. That may be a different animal. Paul Elam talks about that (as someone else mentioned). I can't speak to that, just to my own experience. I also worked in a "red pill" state and was spared some of the lunacy affecting my colleagues on, for example, the west coast.

    Even so, there was an implicit assumption that women were better at relationships, were expert at relationships, and men needed to play catchup. There was a subtle denigration of men and elevation of women. Men's failings were talked about, joked about. Women's failings were only occasionally mentioned.

    There was also a heavy emphasis on the Relationship as the true measure of mental health. People without Relationships (I mean romantic ones) were seen as pathological, disturbed, developmentally arrested, personality disordered, suspicious somehow. In general, modern psychology (not in academia, but in practice) seemed to vastly overemphasize the role of Relationships and, at the same time, downplay the role of other dimensions of existence (solitary pursuits, personal learning and growth, spirituality, meaning, creativity, etc.).

    I have to mention one particular dogma that really tripped me up. This was the idea that, in order to achieve a healthy, intimate relationship, you needed to be emotionally open and vulnerable. Unfortunately, I bought into that dogma hook line and sinker, and I tried for many years to create healthy, intimate relationships by being as honest, open, and emotionally vulnerable as I could be. You can guess how that turned out.

    That was one of my biggest "red pills" -- realizing that women actually don't respond well to emotional openness and vulnerability from men. Because of my indoctrination, I needed to hear if from about a dozen different sources before it finally sunk in. I felt very betrayed when I finally let it sink in. What a load of hogwash.
    1/I have a 20 year old car which is still going strong, no need to update it and the insurance is cheap due to it being old. I am typing this response on a 10 year old laptop, still does everything I need it to. I only updated by Apple I4S phone last year due to apps not working related to CoVid laws that our Govt. implemented and we had to use at work. Otherwise I would probably still be using it.

    I look at some people I work with. They do overtime and always stress about money but they drive in and pay for parking, a double hit to the pocket. They buy coffee instead of making it for free with the stuff work supply. They buy lunch. Some of them would be better off staying home! They update things for the hell of it, overseas trips etc

    Then they chase the promotions but not because they are good at those roles or are even interested. They just want more money. Then they fuck those roles up, put pressure on people under them and their team resigns. If they opted for less and more simple they wouldn't need to scheme and work so hard!

    We have even had guys who start smoking so they can suck up to managers who smoke on breaks! That costs even more money!

    2/As related somewhat to the above. All these things we chase and sometimes get come with added complication and responsibility to our lives. So you want that hot car? Ok, but where are you going to park it? Are you going to stress about scratches? What about insurance? Car parts etc? Same with women. You may land yourself that hot chick but then what? She's not going to hang around for the pleasure of your company! You will need to entertain her.

    "Retail Therapy" is another trap. Buying something to make you happy. You get that "hit" and then you come home and think "Why the fuck did I buy this!" Go on Ebay and see how many Second Hand but Never Used items there are!

    3/ I've noticed women becoming more prevalent in a lot of traditionally male dominated fields. You don't see the push for the opposite though. Male teachers? Nope. Male child care workers? Certainly not! Male nurses? Nope, ok there are some but not really. Male receptionists and Personal Assistants? Hell no!

    There's been articles on how there are fewer and fewer male College and Uni grads too. Men don't want the games and PC bullshit of those institutions. We just go out and work. We make money. There are a lot of "Unskilled" or Blue Collar jobs that can earn you a lot of cash, all without the burden of a Student loan debt!

    As we have seen everything Woke it destroys the balance by only allowing one side a voice.

    Another huge concern is how common it is now for a Wife to accuse her husband of abuse of some kind. Cops turn up, drag him off, she files for divorce. No one questions her.

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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryptic View Post
    True but you also get some Red Pill moments.
    What a good song. Reminds me of my dive bar period. Good song in a bad period of my life.

    This is the first time that I've heard it outside of a jukebox in a noisy bar and I could now concentrate on the lyrics other than the refrain that I recognize and which is repeated many times.

    The story line is that he shows up at his ex's (wife or girlfriend) black tie affair and makes an ass out of himself in front of her and her highbrow boyfriend and friends, making verbal jabs along the lines of being over her.

    I don't think he's over her yet at all, as he drinks to chase the blues away. In the context of the song, I think everybody gets that.

    Gotta say it. He's a blue pill pussy! LOL

    Red pill for us, I'd say, but not him quite yet.

    Don't get me wrong. Great song, and now the refrain is stuck on my mind.

    Thanks for posting it.
    The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. - Mark Twain

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    - Henry David Thoreau

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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    "I think that is a concept which is rapidly dying. It probably worked well enough for most back in the day where once you were married you were tied to your vows 'Till Death Do us Part'."

    Yep, our romance died and she departed. She left and, after healing, I finally realized I was far better of than I was with her.

    I am over her... with great gladness.

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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    Yeah, men don't need a woman to be complete in life. That lie is bullshit. I learned that couple years ago. I've been single for most of my life, and it's great!

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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    I'm a retired psychologist myself, so I know some of this is true.

    Thanks for the detailed response!

    Just to be clear, I don't have any psychology training or background myself. I just like reading psychology/self-help books on an amateur basis, especially now that I'm retired. To find out what makes people tick.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    Psychology has become (didn't used to be) a female-dominated, politically correct profession. When the American Psychological Assn. issued the Toxic Masculinity statement, I resigned my membership. When I told the receptionist why, she said they'd been getting a lot of people resigning over the same thing -- so a bit of good news there, I suppose.

    Good job!

    Of course, most of the mainstream media applauded the APA's statement. But there were some critical articles by psychology professionals such as these two:
    --Link #1: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/happiness-and-the-pursuit-leadership/201903/whats-the-problem-traditional-masculinity
    --Link #2: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201901/psychologists-issue-controversial-report-masculinity

    Quillette also published an excellent critical article entitled "Twelve Scholars Respond to the APA’s Guidance for Treating Men and Boys," but it's behind a pay wall now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    Even so, there was an implicit assumption that women were better at relationships, were expert at relationships, and men needed to play catchup. There was a subtle denigration of men and elevation of women. Men's failings were talked about, joked about. Women's failings were only occasionally mentioned.

    Indeed. Just to expand on something I said above: John M. Gottman's "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" is considered kind of the gold standard for marriage counseling (or was a few years ago, anyway). You can see all the hubbub surrounding it by checking the listing at Amazon; it comes with workbooks, study manuals, etc.

    Anyway, in Chapter 7 Gottman tells men to let women take the lead. He says that men tend to resist a cooperative approach; also, religious views about males being the head of the household shut out the woman; also, women tend to have greater "emotional intelligence" by virtue of an historical nurturing role. Then he goes on to say that men are poor at arguing and put women on the defensive, whereas women are better on that score. He says that men shouldn't argue and should be more open to giving the wife what she wants, since men's input is more injurious to the marriage as a whole.

    Other chapters of the book aren't much better. He spends a lot of time instructing men on how to be an emotional tampon for the women, coddling and supporting her through her moods. So it seems to me that Gottman is using his professional credentials to push a feminist agenda. I've read a number of other relationship books just out of curiosity, and all of those other books were considerably more balanced in their treatment of the sexes than Gottman's book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    There was also a heavy emphasis on the Relationship as the true measure of mental health. People without Relationships (I mean romantic ones) were seen as pathological, disturbed, developmentally arrested, personality disordered, suspicious somehow. In general, modern psychology (not in academia, but in practice) seemed to vastly overemphasize the role of Relationships and, at the same time, downplay the role of other dimensions of existence (solitary pursuits, personal learning and growth, spirituality, meaning, creativity, etc.).

    That's interesting. I'm not so much aware of that facet of the mental health industry, other than maybe warnings about single men exhibiting "Peter Pan syndrome."

    Other generations have accommodated the "confirmed bachelor," so it seems strange to hear that today's therapists are so negative about the single life. It almost sounds like some kind of Soviet thing: Require that people immerse themselves in the collective (relationships) so they don't have the time or opportunity to think for themselves and become free-thinkers.

    Of course, Bella DePaulo has been prominent in recent years in terms of researching the positives of the single life. She notes that singles can still have strong networks of friends, family, etc. And she points out some research showing that singles may be mentally healthier overall than couples who have been married for many years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    I have to mention one particular dogma that really tripped me up. This was the idea that, in order to achieve a healthy, intimate relationship, you needed to be emotionally open and vulnerable. Unfortunately, I bought into that dogma hook line and sinker, and I tried for many years to create healthy, intimate relationships by being as honest, open, and emotionally vulnerable as I could be. You can guess how that turned out.

    That was one of my biggest "red pills" -- realizing that women actually don't respond well to emotional openness and vulnerability from men. Because of my indoctrination, I needed to hear if from about a dozen different sources before it finally sunk in. I felt very betrayed when I finally let it sink in. What a load of hogwash.reate healthy, intimate relationships by being as honest, open, and emotionally vulnerable as I could be. You can guess how that turned out.
    Yes, there's a lot of sentimental nonsense floating around out there concerning relationships. I did the "chivalry" thing myself, complete with lots of courtship and demonstration of social value to win over my exes. I was successful, but I just ended up as an enabler/parent figure to a couple entitled narcissists. As far as I'm concerned, that whole "chivalry" thing is fundamentally flawed.

    Anyway, great job on your "Uncoupled" website. I actually commented on one of your columns back a couple months ago: "Don't Idealize Relationships," where I signed in as Craig and talked about my marriages. You provided a detailed response there too.

    Keep up the great content!
    Last edited by MGTOWLife; August 4, 2022 at 5:55 AM.

  20. #20
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    Re: The idea that you need a woman (romantic love) to live a complete life

    Quote Originally Posted by Unboxxed View Post
    What a good song. Reminds me of my dive bar period. Good song in a bad period of my life.

    This is the first time that I've heard it outside of a jukebox in a noisy bar and I could now concentrate on the lyrics other than the refrain that I recognize and which is repeated many times.

    The story line is that he shows up at his ex's (wife or girlfriend) black tie affair and makes an ass out of himself in front of her and her highbrow boyfriend and friends, making verbal jabs along the lines of being over her.

    I don't think he's over her yet at all, as he drinks to chase the blues away. In the context of the song, I think everybody gets that.

    Gotta say it. He's a blue pill pussy! LOL

    Red pill for us, I'd say, but not him quite yet.

    Don't get me wrong. Great song, and now the refrain is stuck on my mind.

    Thanks for posting it.
    I just can't for the life of me picture you in a dive bar! I stopped going to dive bars when I hit 18 and became of legal age.

    Corruption, like low tide, lowers all boats and smashes their hulls on the rocks.


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