Thread: The friction between manosphere and MGTOW

I see a lot of hate towards MGTOW coming from the rest of the manosphere. I figured out why that is.

The reason they hate us is because they want to achieve the status of a "high value man". To get there you have to be better than most men. But to be able to get there, others need play the status game. In other words, to be a successful in the status game you need to stand over a bunch of betas. And when men decide to opt out they get angry. Because less players in the status game means it is harder to get to the top %.

If they are all going to be high status, who is going to build their roads, fix their plumbing or build a house? They don't want everyone happy and contempt. They want everyone to desperatley fight for their position in the status hierarchy.

Did you notice this as well?

Originally Posted by Witch Doctor

I see a lot of hate towards MGTOW coming from the rest of the manosphere. I figured out why that is.

The reason they hate us is because they want to achieve the status of a "high value man". To get there you have to be better than most men. But to be able to get there, others need play the status game. In other words, to be a successful in the status game you need to stand over a bunch of betas. And when men decide to opt out they get angry. Because less players in the status game means it is harder to get to the top %.

If they are all going to be high status, who is going to build their roads, fix their plumbing or build a house? They don't want everyone happy and contempt. They want everyone to desperatley fight for their position in the status hierarchy.

Did you notice this as well?

You make some valid points. I think they hate us to some extent but at the same time I think there is more. Hear me out: These “manosphere elites” seem to come across only MGTOWS who are losers (in their eyes) in real life. You know what I’m saying? Hence, their didactic one-way speeches.

I seriously doubt any one of them will stand a chance when they come across a successful (again, in their eyes) MGHOW. Men who are as successful, if not more than, as them. Men who are as confident and eloquent as them. Our OWN Unboxxed, mgtower, Jackoff, Jaegr, MGTOWLife, Juggernaut, Mr Wombat etc. come to mind. I’ve been here for a very small amount of time so I’m not really familiar with everybody’s personality here, so pardon me if I forget other names.

Anyways, what I think they FAIL to understand is that what shows is NOT wealth, it’s debt. The real wealth DOES NOT show. AND the best way to be wealthy is not to SHOW wealthy. I’m not talking about movie stars/celebs or modern-day elites.

I really think MGTOWS are very content with NOT showing their wealth OR notch count, for that matter. I COME to mind. I’m 44 and I roam the streets of my city in 10-year old jeans, 15 years old rough jacket and 4-year old phone in my 3-year old, mended/stitched flip flops. Only the people who know me, KNOW WHAT I AM. Others only think I’m a bum wandering around and I’m content with that projection/image of WanderLuster. NOT ONE of them has seen my passport. However, if ANYONE dares ask me any denigrating question, regret ensues IMMEDIATELY! And they know better from that fucking moment onwards.

Point being, they fucking think we are all struggling with our lives one way or another. Therefore, their brain pities us and tone becomes patronizing. Just hear out these fuckers as I mentioned in other thread. Their didactic-styled monologues attest to that fact.

I think what they KNOW is that if ANY successful (by their standards) MGTOW comes to their show, he will RIP THEM APART and they’ll be biting the dust in no time.

Fuck’em. Oh wait…they’re not even worthy of that!

My take is a little different. MGTOW is a philosophy that needs no leadership and does not look to a single entity to provide a voice. It is a collective of men who have reached a logical conclusion and are not necessarily looking for any guidance. A lot of these manosphere mouthpieces are trying to become the flag bearer of a movement-to become that voice. MGTOW men don't need that because their headspace is all about doing their own thing. It's tough to get views on Youtube or followed on Twitter when you are selling to a group that's just not buying. They are trying to create a need that just doesn't exist to justify their own product.

Originally Posted by Witch Doctor

I see a lot of hate towards MGTOW coming from the rest of the manosphere. I figured out why that is.

The reason they hate us is because they want to achieve the status of a "high value man". To get there you have to be better than most men. But to be able to get there, others need play the status game. In other words, to be a successful in the status game you need to stand over a bunch of betas. And when men decide to opt out they get angry. Because less players in the status game means it is harder to get to the top %.

If they are all going to be high status, who is going to build their roads, fix their plumbing or build a house? They don't want everyone happy and contempt. They want everyone to desperatley fight for their position in the status hierarchy.

Did you notice this as well?

I think it's just posturing and politicking. It's just trolling.

As a MGTOW, I routinely put down the PUAs and MRAs and incels for being blue-pill simps thirsting after pussy. I've routinely called them "simps" and "retards." Meantime they put down MGTOW as asexuals or losers or whatever.

But in real life we're all just normal dudes going about our business. In real life, all of us in the manosphere are just "confirmed bachelors," and that's a perfectly honorable station in life; as long as we don't run afoul of the legal system, no one's going to give us a hard time.

It's just that when we want to talk to like-minded people on the internet, we have to adopt these political labels (like MGTOW and MRA and PUA) in order to differentiate ourselves and to separate out into various niche interests. In my case I choose the MGTOW label because I don't want to have to pretend to give a shit about women when message-boarding in the manosphere. (I was married twice, and I no longer give a shit about women in any form whatsoever. I don't hate them; I just don't care.)

So we adopt these political labels, and that leads to political posturing and politicking. But it's just our way of saying, "MY way of doing things is sane and reasonable, and THEIR way is insane." It's all just for show. It's not like we're rival gangs assassinating each other's leaders or something.

Same goes for various authority figures who might conflate us with incels and call us "terrorists." It's just posturing and politicking. They may push MGTOW off social media platforms for being un-PC, but it's not like they're rounding up MGTOW leaders and hauling them off to jail. Like I said above: In real life we're just "confirmed bachelors." Being un-PC isn't even close to being a crime. (I know that some liberals would like to make it a crime, but that's still a long way off.)

So I'll keep raising hell about PUAs and MRAs or about tradcons and call them names like "retards" and "simps." And they'll call MGTOWs weasels or losers or whatever. But its just posturing and politicking. It's just trolling. They're going to do what they're going to do, and I'll do what I'm going to do, and we'll all coexist just fine.

Originally Posted by Witch Doctor

The reason they hate us is because they want to achieve the status of a "high value man". To get there you have to be better than most men. But to be able to get there, others need play the status game. In other words, to be a successful in the status game you need to stand over a bunch of betas. And when men decide to opt out they get angry. Because less players in the status game means it is harder to get to the top %.

I think that's too convoluted an explanation. I don't believe that they are making those kind of calculations. I think it's probably much simpler. The PUA types have invested their identity and self-worth in the pursuit of women. MGTOW says all of that is a waste of time. The PUA types understandably feel offended and defensive about that. MGTOW's message is an implicit threat to the way they have organized their life. So, they must attack it and put it down. Their typical way of doing that is to imply that MGTOW are quitters -- guys who couldn't hack the competition for women.

It seems to me that virtually everyone, with the exception of us MGTOW, live their lives in the pursuit of validation from others. This applies equally to the blue-pilled, the PUAs, the MRAs, the incels and pretty much anyone else you can think of.

We refuse to give them that validation. Our very existence is an affront to everything they believe and it bruises their egos.

Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell

I think that's too convoluted an explanation. I don't believe that they are making those kind of calculations. I think it's probably much simpler. The PUA types have invested their identity and self-worth in the pursuit of women. MGTOW says all of that is a waste of time. The PUA types understandably feel offended and defensive about that. MGTOW's message is an implicit threat to the way they have organized their life. So, they must attack it and put it down. Their typical way of doing that is to imply that MGTOW are quitters -- guys who couldn't hack the competition for women.

It's true that the various manosphere groups have misconceptions about each other.

At the bottom of this post I'm linking an old video (from 2016) by Paul Elam, an MRA. He more or less directs it at MGTOW. He says that all humans like to "pair bond," and when MGTOWs swear off women it must be because they don't know how to handle women and are scared of them. So Elam then proceeds to give a lesson to MGTOW on how to handle women.

The video is actually quite good, and the lesson is a good one for blue-pill simps. But it doesn't necessarily address the real issues of MGTOW people, such as the legal problems that accompany women. And it doesn't address my own issues: I simply find the very presence of women to be irritating, much as I find the presence of children to be irritating. They're not rational adults, so I can't be bothered with dealing with them.

To sum it up: Elam's video is actually quite good, but it's based on a misconception of MGTOW. Elam thinks that MGTOW people just need a lesson on how to handle women. So he gives a lesson on how to handle women. But most MGTOW people aren't really worried about how to handle women; MGTOW is more about the various disruptions to life that accompany women. So the video ends up missing the mark.

Link to Elam's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQGAsVT4TrM

Manosphere needs the bluepill motivation of women to work on themselves and improve their lives.

Mgtow doesn't.


They're willing slaves on the plantation, let them enjoy their servitude to their base animal instincts.
Some men just can't handle freedom and critical thinking, they never make the logical leaps and connect the dots - pattern recognition.

Originally Posted by Witch Doctor

I see a lot of hate towards MGTOW coming from the rest of the manosphere. I figured out why that is.

The reason they hate us is because they want to achieve the status of a "high value man". To get there you have to be better than most men. But to be able to get there, others need play the status game. In other words, to be a successful in the status game you need to stand over a bunch of betas. And when men decide to opt out they get angry. Because less players in the status game means it is harder to get to the top %.

If they are all going to be high status, who is going to build their roads, fix their plumbing or build a house? They don't want everyone happy and contempt. They want everyone to desperatley fight for their position in the status hierarchy.

Did you notice this as well?

I always said the problem is other men not women. Women just play men with the tools they are given. It's men who box other men in and women swoop in like vultures. Ever notice how women can act, dress, talk, etc how they want? You go gurl! But if a man doesn't fit the mold then he is attacked. "Oh he is a fag, beta, loser, etc". F*ck them and their narrative. Live your life how you see fit. The cocksuckers who tell you what to do sure as hell won't pay your way in life or except blame if you fail in what they want. My biggest regret in life is not saying f*ck off a lot more.

I was the ultimate nice guy people pleaser. I did everything I was asked, told, and was supposed to do. They say you know who your true friends are in your time of need. You will find out you are on your own.

The only one I truly recommend on Youtube is Hammerhand. He is downright honest and is not trying to shame you into buying merchandise. I see a lot of myself in his ways.

Originally Posted by MGTOWFOREVER

I always said the problem is other men not women. Women just play men with the tools they are given. It's men who box other men in and women swoop in like vultures. Ever notice how women can act, dress, talk, etc how they want? You go gurl! But if a man doesn't fit the mold then he is attacked. "Oh he is a fag, beta, loser, etc". F*ck them and their narrative. Live your life how you see fit. The cocksuckers who tell you what to do sure as hell won't pay your way in life or except blame if you fail in what they want. My biggest regret in life is not saying f*ck off a lot more.

I was the ultimate nice guy people pleaser. I did everything I was asked, told, and was supposed to do. They say you know who your true friends are in your time of need. You will find out you are on your own.

The only one I truly recommend on Youtube is Hammerhand. He is downright honest and is not trying to shame you into buying merchandise. I see a lot of myself in his ways.

I've got to where I see all men playing the status game as "betas". I don't care who you are...how much money you make or how good looking women see you. I don't care if you're ripped like peak Arnold either or the richest man in the world. I actually hate those words alpha and beta though because they attempt to sum up a man in relation to how "valuable" he is to a woman. If you have the traits women find resourceful you are "alpha". Fuck women and fuck living to be what they want. If you think in those terms you are weak.

Guess what -- we will all get older and all that alpha beta shit will seem silly as hell. Our bodies will break down, loved ones will die, hair fall out, mental problems arise, financial woes, random accidents, addictions, victim of crime, etc, etc. Even the most "alpha" mofo at 25 could be living in physical pain by 45, or be divorced raped or living some other nightmare situation. If I hear some man referring to himself as "alpha" I don't get jealous -- I just cringe at the level of self absorbed narcissism. The same could be said of some beautiful woman that acts like a bitch. If you're a bitch you're a bitch.

Lets be real here, A LOT of the guys in the Manosphere measure their value as a man based on their ability to get pussy. Simple as that. Sure they say hit the gym, pick up them extra hours, save and invest.......but always seems to come back to attracting women. Especially, the pick up artist types and the ones who sell "courses" on how to be an "Alpha". People who are comfortable in their own skin typically intimidate others. A guy who goes to the gym, picks up those extra hours, saves/invests and does so w/o any concern for waaaaaaaaahmen really puts the fear of god into these guys because that's one less dude they can scam. The only two guys I regularly listen to are Joker and Chronic and BOTH are all about telling men to work on themselves, but to also love themselves first and that's really what its all about.

Originally Posted by Witch Doctor

The reason they hate us is because they want to achieve the status of a "high value man".

No, dude. All of those "manosphere" guys who dump on MGTOW are selling something. A book, a conference, and online course. Maybe for actual money, maybe for youtube likes. They are all selling something that MGTOW aren't buying, and they resent us for that.

Love ourselves is right. I was just talking with my mom about my brother today...he's been married 3 times and now he's simping on a new girl he met at work. She tried to say "well he doesn't have anybody" and I should feel sorry for him. I then told her that doesn't matter and that he needs to learn to be happy on his own. Instead, he needs validation from whatever woman will give him attention so he can love himself. It's really sick how he turns into a puppy in love just because the first woman that comes along gives him attention. I'm like you know he's probably angling to marry her...which would be his 4th by age 46.

Originally Posted by Witch Doctor

I see a lot of hate towards MGTOW coming from the rest of the manosphere. I figured out why that is.

The reason they hate us is because they want to achieve the status of a "high value man". To get there you have to be better than most men. But to be able to get there, others need play the status game. In other words, to be a successful in the status game you need to stand over a bunch of betas. And when men decide to opt out they get angry. Because less players in the status game means it is harder to get to the top %.

If they are all going to be high status, who is going to build their roads, fix their plumbing or build a house? They don't want everyone happy and contempt. They want everyone to desperatley fight for their position in the status hierarchy.

Did you notice this as well?

If what you're saying includes the idea of one group saying of another "Without you, we won't look as good."

or, "We need you to use you, now cooperate, dammit!",

yeah, I've seen that type of thing before.

Meh. I've never paid attention to the "manosphere". Except for a mention in threads like this on occasion, they don't even enter my consciousness. I couldn't care less what they think of me and wouldn't know where to read/listen to it anyway (don't bother posting links in response, I won't follow them as I simply don't care).

Originally Posted by MGTOWLife

I think it's just posturing and politicking. It's just trolling.

As a MGTOW, I routinely put down the PUAs and MRAs and incels for being blue-pill simps thirsting after pussy. I've routinely called them "simps" and "retards." Meantime they put down MGTOW as asexuals or losers or whatever.

But in real life we're all just normal dudes going about our business. In real life, all of us in the manosphere are just "confirmed bachelors," and that's a perfectly honorable station in life; as long as we don't run afoul of the legal system, no one's going to give us a hard time.

It's just that when we want to talk to like-minded people on the internet, we have to adopt these political labels (like MGTOW and MRA and PUA) in order to differentiate ourselves and to separate out into various niche interests. In my case I choose the MGTOW label because I don't want to have to pretend to give a shit about women when message-boarding in the manosphere. (I was married twice, and I no longer give a shit about women in any form whatsoever. I don't hate them; I just don't care.)

So we adopt these political labels, and that leads to political posturing and politicking. But it's just our way of saying, "MY way of doing things is sane and reasonable, and THEIR way is insane." It's all just for show. It's not like we're rival gangs assassinating each other's leaders or something.

Same goes for various authority figures who might conflate us with incels and call us "terrorists." It's just posturing and politicking. They may push MGTOW off social media platforms for being un-PC, but it's not like they're rounding up MGTOW leaders and hauling them off to jail. Like I said above: In real life we're just "confirmed bachelors." Being un-PC isn't even close to being a crime. (I know that some liberals would like to make it a crime, but that's still a long way off.)

So I'll keep raising hell about PUAs and MRAs or about tradcons and call them names like "retards" and "simps." And they'll call MGTOWs weasels or losers or whatever. But its just posturing and politicking. It's just trolling. They're going to do what they're going to do, and I'll do what I'm going to do, and we'll all coexist just fine.

Yeah it's all internet bullshit. You rarely hear any of these terms in the real world.

Originally Posted by JustWannaRetireFk

Manosphere needs the bluepill motivation of women to work on themselves and improve their lives. Mgtow doesn't.

They're willing slaves on the plantation, let them enjoy their servitude to their base animal instincts.
Some men just can't handle freedom and critical thinking, they never make the logical leaps and connect the dots - pattern recognition.

They are the slaves who look at the freedom we have and all they can think about is how stupid we are that we have to go find our own food when their master feeds them every day.

The way I see it is, the actual manosphere "figures" (aka mouthpieces) are the ones against MGTOW because their game is idolatry. They want to be revered by every one of their subjects and anything that can cause a distraction from their like/follow/subscriber count and bank balance going up is a threat. They chase the same thing the females chase (despite being very vocal about females doing it, demonstrating a lack of self awareness coupled with some envy sprinkled in) with the attention and validation of others ~ that they translate into fame/money/body count etc.
Their way of putting down MGTOW is to prevent their precious subscribers (the 'normies' - the young boys who are apparently all misguided and come from single mother households) from associating themselves with it. If I am your god, you follow me. So you, the subscriber has to hate MGTOW just like I do and hate the alphabet people and the 31 genders of Baskin Robbins too.

And the reason I say that it's only the "figures" posturing against other people to chase clout is because an individual isn't going to come up to your face and talk shit to you, no matter if he's 6'7" 300lbs jacked. He'd get shot. In a heartbeat. But online... anything can fly.

Originally Posted by Mr Wombat

No, dude. All of those "manosphere" guys who dump on MGTOW are selling something. A book, a conference, and online course. Maybe for actual money, maybe for youtube likes. They are all selling something that MGTOW aren't buying, and they resent us for that.

This would be my second take on the issue. But many don't sell anything and many make a whole video talking crap about MGTOW without promoting any products. I think the hatered goes deeper than selling their course.

Originally Posted by Witch Doctor

This would be my second take on the issue. But many don't sell anything and many make a whole video talking crap about MGTOW without promoting any products. I think the hatered goes deeper than selling their course.

If the manosphere's right, then we're the basement dwelling losers they've always said we were. However, if we are correct, then they are the pathetic chumps wasting their time fighting for a lost cause. That's too awful for them to contemplate, so they'll go down with the ship before admitting they were even a little bit wrong.

They also probably resent us for not helping them with their losing battles. They are after all trade cons. But the big reason they don't like us is we might be right.

Originally Posted by Mr Wombat

No, dude. All of those "manosphere" guys who dump on MGTOW are selling something. A book, a conference, and online course. Maybe for actual money, maybe for youtube likes. They are all selling something that MGTOW aren't buying, and they resent us for that.

I agree... We don't buy into it and if a man gets RP'ed enough will likely not buy in and go MGTOW as we have done.

If a man wants to be BP'ed and simp, be a PUA or even MGTOW and still date, I'm not going to hate on them, they have chosen their path and there is nothing I can do about that. It's not the path I am on and not the path I want to be on. If anyone in RL was to ask me if I am MGTOW I would question where they got that from and likely end the conversation with dating would not suite my life at this point in time, pointing out a woman would want more than I have to give... I don't need anyone "Boxing" me up in a category where someone could mistakenly attack me. Any attack on MGTOW I don't take personally. As Mr Wombat says I'm not buying what they are selling, and I don't buy their attack either, I've gone my own way...