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  1. #1

    Suggestions on Engaging the Matrix (for flailer)

    Even though I think it’s a little early to be commenting on this, I thought I should at least get the ball rolling. I hope that other members also weigh in their thoughts and experiences.

    Again caveat; these are my opinions and you need to see if it can apply to you. Just because it works for me, doesn't necessarily mean I'm right or that it will work for you. Always test it out.

    Like how Morpheus offered Neo the choice of the Blue and Red Pill, you cannot force the Red Pill on someone; it won’t go down well. The person has to choose to take the Red Pill himself and you can only offer it to those who are receptive.

    Engaging Women

    Oh yeah, we do need to begin here.

    Why do we need to argue with women? We don’t and we don’t necessarily have to but there are times when we are pulled into an argument for even stupidly remote reasons. We need to defend ourselves from this and my aim for the Female Psychosis series is to help men to do just that.

    We’re often confounded and exasperated when arguing at length with women because we don’t know how they think and how to respond. If we knew, then we can strategically and tactically address each argument objectively and find the optimal solution for the best possible outcome.

    Remember, the goal is not to win the argument against an opponent who won’t admit defeat; the goal is to make them feel defeated.

    Other reasons I’ve already covered in Part 4 of my Female Psychosis series.

    Men of the Matrix (Non-Red Pillers)

    In real life, no one can simply give the Red Pill without evoking some kind of reaction. Some men will take it objectively while others won’t. This is why I wrote the Male Mother Need; to address the problem of the ‘Ideal Women Fantasy’ that most if not all men seem to have.

    Karen Straughan aka GirlWritesWhat commented that for Blue Pillers, listening to Barbarossaa’s videos feels like walking in a haze and suddenly smashing into a brick wall. Straughan likes his materials but stated that his impassioned style and content is too harsh for the men in the matrix.

    And she’s absolutely right.

    I know this from my own experience. If men have this idea in their minds that all women (or theirs) are angels then they’ll vehemently disagree when someone comes along telling them that their women aren’t; no matter how right you are. This isn’t Solipsism, rather a self-delusion and I once gave the example of Bernard Boursicot to highlight the power of this self-delusion.

    So how do we shatter this delusion?

    That is where youtubers like Sandman are so influential. He eases the transition from Blue Pill to Red Pill by giving context to the problem where what we want to say actually makes sense.

    In our daily lives, talking about the other person’s relationship problems with family and lovers is a good start. Don’t immediately jump in with Red Pills but just provide a commentary, a remark with examples on women’s general behavior but you really need to know your stuff and this takes a lot of practice.

    What you’re doing is
    1. Building rapport, earning his trust and show him that you’re on his side
    2. To assure him that he’s not crazy for thinking and feeling the way he does about his women.

    If he’s got no problems with his women then drop the subject and don’t pursue. It may be that he doesn’t trust you yet which means you need to build more rapport or maybe he hasn’t experience the entirety of women’s behavior which means you only need to give him time.

    And that’s all that it is, Time, Effort and Opportunity.

    It’s a continuous process, not a single event. You need to find opportunities to give him small doses of Red Pills when the circumstance permit you e.g. if he makes a comment about his wife nagging, give him a small dose of Red Pill there, nothing controversial but just planting a seed so that seed will grow in the back of his mind.

    Planting the Seed

    These are suggestions on seeding the Red Pill. You want to build a foundation so that when you give him the actual pill, he’ll be more receptive to take it.

    The first one is conversation starters, like sirreaper’s thread here (by the way reaper this is an awesome thread, kudos and much rep to ya). Use stuff like these as small talks to your friends; comment about it, laugh about it, discuss it – anything. You’re trying to implant the image of what women are into their minds but you need to build it up.

    Second, and this idea is from Jagrmeister and it is a good idea; you can also use leading questions to measure what the man thinks about women e.g. “You know about the story of that girl who keeps condoms of men on her wall? What do you think of that?”

    And listen to what he says, look at his body language, does he scoff at the idea? Do he give nawalt and bwalt excuses? Does he just shrug? These are cues but you need to learn the man’s behavior to approximately guess what he really thinks. This takes a ton of practice.

    You know when you can get through to him when he confides with you regarding his troubled relationship (if he has any). And that’s when you need to be careful; don’t rush in. What you want to do here is to introduce the Red Pill and not divulge the entire catalogue of Red Pill wisdom.

    Don’t bombard him with everything just let him know that there are a lot of others in similar situations and there is a place where he can learn to protect himself. He’ll press if he’s curious and so you need to give him examples and you need to know your stuff inside out.

    Remember, you’re having a conversation with him, you’re not trying to recruit him or change his mind; that is his choice. He might be a traditionalist and wants a family badly (especially if he’s a real Asian); that’s fine and don’t disagree. You’re not giving him your opinion per se, you’re providing him information.

    It might be that he transition from Blue Pill to Purple Pill; this is fine too. We need to realize that not everyone will agree on being MGTOW, at least not so soon. Red Pill is most potent on men who have really suffered at the hands of women. For those who haven’t they don’t see the need to and unfortunately that’s how life is.

    But if we can get them out of the Blue Pill, that’s a start and that is still a win for us, at least that’s my opinion of it.

    If You Fail

    I have failed so many times before I got good at this so if you fail don’t sweat it. When I was a teen, I have had the entire family up in arms against me when I pointed out something wrong.

    Continue to build rapport; it's all about Time, Effort and Opportunity.

    No one taught us how to be good at this and so it’s all trial and error and tons and tons of practice. You need to learn the hard approach and soft approach as well as when and why you apply them. I’ll try to cover more about this in the future.

    Children of the Matrix

    This is unchartered territory for many MGTOWs and we don’t have a lot of experience in this. However, I think we should at least open a discussion regarding how we free our sons from the system.

    I thought about it but I realize that there are so many factors to consider; the Male Mother need of the son; the spousification of the son by the mother; the brainwashing of the son against the father; the effects of divorce on children; the gynocentric and misandric environment the son lives in; our sons own exposure to girls; the level of maturity in the son’s thinking process as well as; normal physical changes taking place in the son as he matures.

    I don’t have an informed opinion on many of these things unfortunately.

    However, I do think it’s better to do something than nothing and so, I think my approach to Non-Red Pillers in general is good for the time being to address the children of the matrix.

    TL/DR

    1. You can’t force the Red Pill, you can only offer.
    2. Blue Pillars must voluntarily take it; if he rejects don’t pursue.
    3. Build rapport, earn his trust and assure him you’re on his side.
    4. Ease the Blue Piller into taking the Red Pill; don’t rush things.
    5. It’s a continuous process; not a single event.

    A good book to read about building rapport is Dale Carnegie’s How To Make Friends and Influence People. It is rather corny and old-fashioned but I grew up with this book and it still has many applications that can be used today.

    Also, watch Sandman’s videos and learn his delivery style as well as content. Karen Straughan is pretty good too. I think I got the ball rolling. I’ll revisit this in the future. I think many of our members have good experiences that they can share; methods that I didn’t think of, mentioned or tried.

    Also, feel free to disagree with me if you do, and recommend better options
    Last edited by Kyojiro Kagenuma; March 18, 2014 at 4:59 PM.

  2. #2
    Administrator jagrmeister's Avatar
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    Re: Suggestions on Engaging the Matrix (for flailer)

    Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.

    What you’re doing is
    1. Building rapport, earning his trust and show him that you’re on his side
    2. To assure him that he’s not crazy for thinking and feeling the way he does about his women.
    Yes, exactly. Folks, try to remember when you were blue pill, assuming you didn't pop out of your mother's womb red pill all the way. Try to recall your attitudes. I remember being abroad and seeing a guy wearing a "Girls suck" t-shirt and thinking automatically he was a loser. If you conceived a delectable new cheesecake recipie, would you force-feed it to someone?

    I'd like to explore these ideas further in Action. IMO, this is all deprogramming. The idea of creating materials or guidance on how to deprogram and insulate the next generation of boys from the impacts of feminism is also something we can discuss. My guess is deprogramming has different wrinkles depending on the audience; if they're single or have a GF, what their relationship history is, their age, etc.

    There is a concept of a Yes-set where you gain people's trust by asking questions or making statements that are easily agreed with. There is a gradation of arguments within MGTOW; and some match both our worldview and that of a blue-pillers. Some of these statements may begin with "Have you ever noticed..." The creation of memes or mini-text-blocks can also create viral tools to awaken people, if even to give them the initial nudge that something is amiss. And as Kyo talks about, deprogramming or awakening others is not a single event. It is about interrupting the conformist signal that blankets mankind if even for a few seconds.

    Some of you may be wondering -- who is this Jagrmeister guy? Have a look at some of my posts from MGTOW Forums--> Jagr Archive (collection of my articles)



    Stuff I do: Box, Surf, Tennis (3.5/4.0), Downhill skiing. I lift 4x a week and have for 10 years.
    Stuff I like: Comedy shows, NBA, Reading Non-Fiction (sociology, philosophy, biographies).
    Random facts: I admire Steve Jobs. Favorite travel spots (Russia, Central America).
    *If you're on Twitter, follow me: MGTOW_Jagr

  3. #3
    Senior Member jso's Avatar
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    Re: Suggestions on Engaging the Matrix (for flailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyojiro Kagenuma View Post
    Why do we need to argue with women? We don’t and we don’t necessarily have to but there are times when we are pulled into an argument for even stupidly remote reasons. We need to defend ourselves from this and my aim for the Female Psychosis series is to help men to do just that.

    We’re often confounded and exasperated when arguing at length with women because we don’t know how they think and how to respond. If we knew, then we can strategically and tactically address each argument objectively and find the optimal solution for the best possible outcome.

    Remember, the goal is not to win the argument against an opponent who won’t admit defeat; the goal is to make them feel defeated.
    indeed, I remember one of the best pieces of advice I've seen at roosh or roissy or whoever PUA actually said it.

    right after paul elam had a public debate with some feminist, the PUA community slammed him for giving feminists undeserved credibility by trying to make serious arguments against them. as they stated, it handed the frame of the conversation over to feminists and legitimized their viewpoints by taking them seriously enough to respond to them in a debate.

    feminists are completely insane. no amount of logic or reason will ever convince them that they have been mistaken. our best options are to ignore them or mock them. we all need to recognize that they are beneath us.

  4. #4

    Re: Suggestions on Engaging the Matrix (for flailer)

    I disagree. The point of debating a Feminist is not to change the Feminist's mind, because as you pointed out that will never happen. A logical arguement against an emotional reaction is never effective, and feminists are all emotional response and no logic. The point is to remain calm and push the logical points out into the social discussion for the benefit of the audiance, some of which will be men needing to hear the facts. There might even be one woman that gets it. This is not likely, but I suppose it is possible.

  5. #5

    Re: Suggestions on Engaging the Matrix (for flailer)

    I think the idea of creating material for the future will definitely help the future generations (assuming the idiocracy hasn't set in) it certainly helped me wake up.
    In the end, I will always prefer to walk alone, simply because I enjoy the peace and freedom of my free will. -Me

  6. #6
    Moderator Chairborne's Avatar
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    Re: Suggestions on Engaging the Matrix (for flailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikediver
    I disagree. The point of debating a Feminist is not to change the Feminist's mind, because as you pointed out that will never happen. A logical arguement against an emotional reaction is never effective, and feminists are all emotional response and no logic. The point is to remain calm and push the logical points out into the social discussion for the benefit of the audiance, some of which will be men needing to hear the facts. There might even be one woman that gets it. This is not likely, but I suppose it is possible.
    I agree 100%. I debate feminists (and other political / ideological adveraries - I'm active on other issues as well) not to convice the true believers, but rather to convince the OBSERVERS of the debate. That's what's great about the format of the blog or forum... It's open for everybody to see. I win when my opponent loses their cool, or demonstrates poor logic.

    Some great tools for masterdebaters:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

    Sometimes I'll respond to bullshit without a full rebuttal, simply a link to the specific bias or fallacy they're exhibiting.

    For instance:

    Her: Everywhere I see the patriarchy's evil influence!
    Him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_perception
    Her: No, it's true! Men suck because Andrea Dworkin said blah blah blah...
    Him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority
    Her: How can you say that? Andrea is a women, and women are oppressed, so she can't have authority!
    Him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation
    Her: You asshole!
    Him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    etc.

    You'll never convince her with that baiting, but on facebook, or on a forum, as long as you remain calm and rational, you can convince the outside observer, the ones towards the middle of the bell curve in the spectrum between two opposing ideologies... And they're the ones who need convincing.

  7. #7
    Senior Member toolate's Avatar
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    Re: Suggestions on Engaging the Matrix (for flailer)

    Great thread.

    It is good to debate feminists if only to expose their hypocrisy to others. That said, if your time is limited, I think it might be better spent educating our male youth about the trap that awaits them. Now that brings long term change. Just stick to the facts, no evangelical pursuits.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Cro-Magnon's Avatar
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    Re: Suggestions on Engaging the Matrix (for flailer)

    I think trying to get a younger generation of men to become aware of how the social and human terrain has changed is the best thing to do.

    Other than that: You don't find the way, the way finds you.

  9. #9
    Senior Member flailer's Avatar
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    Re: Suggestions on Engaging the Matrix (for flailer)

    Thank You Sensei Kyojiro Kagenuma San,

    This is a VERY IMPORTANT topic to me, as someone I love deeply is far more Blue Pill than Purple. I thought he was coming around, but I over-stepped my bounds, and regression has occurred. CLEARLY my bad!

    This thread is WONDERFUL. The responses VITAL.

    I hope we keep this thread going as I have much more to learn

    What I have been doing:
    - I started collected saying, quotes, and statements, mostly from Red Pill videos on Youtube. I would paste them into a word document (word processing software, duh)
    - Next I started building YouTube playlists. MGTOW USA, Feminism - Brilliant, & one titled: Guys, prepare yourselves or lose everything.
    - Next I started commenting on MGTOW & MHRA youtube videos
    - When I started commenting on Youtube THAT is when my REAL GROWTH started, as people started engaging me back.
    - I wanted to share that growth, so I started talking to the people I would meet about the dangers of Women, but still had a hard time approaching my most important target for enlightenment.
    - Next came the Gynocentrism Theory Blog.... and wow, it really mirrored back to me all the things i never expressed, and always suppressed
    - Next I started using an online data base to collect important bits and pieces that speak to me (EverNote, free online database, with an handy apps)
    - Now I find myself here. Willing to help. Willing to share. Wanting the best for MY BROTHERS......

    --- But I'm still no closer to recognizing when & how to help the one person that means the most to me.


    In case you still have not guessed that person I want to help; He is my Son. He is Young, Fit, Attractive, & highly Motivated. I'd rather see some easily-dumped-slut get her meat-hooks into him than for him to turn "Romantic."

    So, PLEASE, lets keep this thread going, for his sake!!!!!

    Thanks, Brothers!!!!
    If misery loves company; Happiness requires Bachelorhood

    p.s. i resent being a "senior member" - I'm not that old, or am I?

  10. #10

    Re: Suggestions on Engaging the Matrix (for flailer)

    I feel your pain. I went to my 35 year old son's wedding last April ( to a 32 year old single mother). You can bend the twig but the tree grows how it will. Your influence in these media soaked ages is very limited.

  11. #11
    Senior Member flailer's Avatar
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    Re: Suggestions on Engaging the Matrix (for flailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikediver View Post
    I feel your pain. I went to my 35 year old son's wedding last April ( to a 32 year old single mother). You can bend the twig but the tree grows how it will. Your influence in these media soaked ages is very limited.
    Thanks Mike, And i feel your pain.
    - Maybe, just maybe, you can make an agreement with yourself, to stay on top of your relationship with him?
    - Maybe, just maybe, he will realize that he DESERVES to have his needs filled, continuously, regularly, without excuses, without Blaming. His "showing up" fully fulfills his side of the arrangement, right?
    - Maybe, just maybe (this is the big one) he will demand that he does have authority & that it is the duty of his new wife to keep the kids & house rules to his satisfaction?
    - Maybe, just maybe, he will share with you when things are positive & negative? And you can give him the power to put his foot down? To not compromise?
    - The sooner he nulls the wedding, or she proves her worth, her continuing worth, the better it will be for all.

    Hoping the role of "instant & gracious grampa" sits well with you.

    Best wishes & Blessing,
    f

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyojiro Kagenuma View Post
    1. You can’t force the Red Pill, you can only offer.
    2. Blue Pillars must voluntarily take it; if he rejects don’t pursue.
    3. Build rapport, earn his trust and assure him you’re on his side.
    4. Ease the Blue Piller into taking the Red Pill; don’t rush things.
    5. It’s a continuous process; not a single event.

    If misery loves company; Happiness requires Bachelorhood

    p.s. i resent being a "senior member" - I'm not that old, or am I?


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