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  1. #21

    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    That is an awesome book which is near top in my "to-do list" of reading, though I am yet to start it. Heard so many people refer to it and recommend it !
    I also will go out on a limb and recommend it. Its really insightful and not too bulky but the quality is top notch.

  2. #22

    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    That is an awesome book which is near top in my "to-do list" of reading, though I am yet to start it. Heard so many people refer to it and recommend it !
    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    The two declines from history I hear a lot about are, the medieval dark ages, which began roughly from the downfall of Rome up until Renaissance, and then one another much earlier, the Late Bronze Age Collapse. I have heard, though not researched extensively, that the Bronze Age one was extremely brutal. Several entire prosperous civilizations were simply erased from the planet, only Egyptians survived, barely. Roman downfall was, again based on what I heard, and correct me if I am wrong, not nearly that bad. The Byzantine Empire, which was in many ways, the leftover Roman Empire, lived for several centuries before finally losing to Turks.

    I dont know why its the case, but one may hope, that whatever causes which reduced the severity of "dark ages", may play out again, and we may not crash that hard, or not every corner of the world crashes at the same time. But then again, I also think that rampant globalization, may make the next one a lot darker than ever.

    Regardless, there are people who are realizing this. Among those are people who have investment in the future, the future after their death, mostly because they want to do it for their kids. The resistance is developing out there. Even us are a form of resistance, though we tilt more towards black pilled side of things, again I believe, mostly because a lot of us dont really care about what happens after we are dead (nothing wrong with this, just stating it). But the thing is, those people out there who do care, are taking a much much more aggressive stance. The sentiments and vibe in their ecosystem makes it feel like some kind of holy order is forming to fight in a crusade. I myself have no investment in future after my death, but I am relatively young, so unless something kills me, I still have some decades as per usual life expectancy of humans, which is why movements like that make me curious to say the least, to see how it all turns out. Interesting times !
    I agree with most of what you said regarding the necessity of cleaning the shit in our front yard to take a bit of liberty with your assertions. Just wanted to add that even though personally I really dont think its relevant to me if human goes on after I am gone, I realise in some sense my identity has become tied to me improving my immediate vicinity in any way I can not because of next year, next week or tomorrow but because at that very , moment I would be going against my own values if I chose to turn a blind eye to certain situations. I dont know if what I do will have an impact in the future but for now its enough for me that it makes a difference to the quality of my life now.

    Its like Nietzsche said about the abyss looking back into one when one looks into it; I do not want to become someone I despise, simply to get back at those who have hurt me, I'd rather help mend than break. I know it sounds idealistic but I do it knowing that what I fix can be broken again even more quickly than I fixed it but sometimes its just enough to keep the candle in the hallway and not fret about if the wind will blow it out. I feel gratitude to all those great men who have made my life meaningful by being the lone candle in a hurricane of confusion and while I am here the only way I can pay them for their labour of love and maybe even come to understand why they did it is to pay it forward.

  3. #23
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by African-Daoist View Post
    but if we go through our so called morals with a fine tooth comb, we realise hypocrisy should be our middle names.
    This is exactly why I reject the idea of trusting the inner voice or belief or gut feeling, as far as possible. I advocate for an objective criteria of truth, entirely based on logical deduction. Yes those criterias can be complex, but if they are objective, I can seek help from someone. Present them with my beliefs and statements and can ask them to run them through the "tests". Just like we do with math formulas and proofs. Its not always possible that you figure out everything yourself correctly, but you can always ask someone else check your paper, and in a lot of cases, you can even have a computer check your proofs !! I'd really like something like that for morals and statements, so I no longer have to trust myself.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  4. #24
    Senior Member Opaque's Avatar
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    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    The thing is there really are consequences to our actions this much I am certain you would concede ? That being the case of course it seems as though what would be considered as immoral behaviour slips through the cracks but thats because societal morality does not necessarily equate to universal morality.
    What I mean is, truth is actually what could be considered as a universal standard, so if a society thinks that shiting on its most productive members will be a viable longterm strategy then it clearly did not get the memo. We are not ants or bees in a colony where there is only instinct and everyone follows the leader, even women when they are not fighting men are busy fighting each other to assert their dominance and independence even if that said independence is tied to the approval of the herd.
    I don't agree at all with this summation.

    What you are doing (psychologically speaking) is what a massive chunk of other so called ''MGTOW'' are doing. They are using this kind of thinking to ''comfort themselves from the misery'' so to speak. It is a rationalisation, in order to give one-self some ''grounding'' or to give one-self some sense of meaning to the chaos - when in reality all that exist is the chaos itself - and by the time you've figured things out you have been milked by your mother, sister, females at work or on dates and all the other anti- male men (your boss etc).

    You are wrong in assuming that I agree with actions having consequences. They don't. Again this is a "rationalisation amongst the chaos". I know about plenty of immoral people and they live very fulfilling lives are happy and well-off.

    If actions had consequences, then where are the changes that we are seeing?

    Weinstein just got 23 years in prison, even though the so called "victims" had a long-term relationship with him way after the so called "rape". How does this make sense when precedent has clearly meant that once a women continues a relationship with a man, that cannot count as rape.

    Furthermore, any changes you are seeing which look positive, is actually just women "adjusting the pendulum". You will of course see women here and there come out and support men, but only after the fact.

    Truth is not a universal standard because in the pursuit of truth, you are actually pursuing power. Truth is simply the way people try to dominate a discourse - which again leads to said person wanting to "make sense of the world" - but in actuality is a power play.

    Also, we do not live in the Middle Ages where "truth" made sense. You go to church, you get married, you visit the graves, and you say a Hail Mary and you are safe - AND EVERYONE abided by it. So there is contextual issue in your argument.

    Many MGTOW often forget to contextualise their arguments in this sense. The way we live now there is not truth, facts, accuracy, justice, fairness etc... so it is completely pointless to consider truth or rationality from within the modern context.

    I don't mean to be hostile or anything of such nature.

    But I often find MGTOW trying to rationalise the matter when in fact almost any change that you see happening on the societal or individual level is just women and the gynocracy in general noticing that they have gone too far. So they adjust, the come and say "yea false allegations of rape bad" .... BUT have you ever asked yourself all these mothers, who have sons, husbands, grandfather etc..... ????

    WHY HAVE THEY NEVER COME OUT ON THE STREET AND THREATENED POLITICIANS TO CHANGE THE BIASED LAWS WHEN IT COMES TO FALSE ALLEGATIONS OF RAPE?

    These women could do it in an INSTANT! THEY COULD TURN IT OVER BY TOMORROW SHOULD THEY WISH. They are after all, the larger electorate and wield huge social influence.

    Ans yet at the same time, they say that they love their sons, fathers and husbands.
    A mother cannot raise a boy to be a man, not because he needs a father figure; but because she favours team vagina over her own son.

    Tradcon women are the most manipulative of all kinds of women, because they infect you with false hope.
    Radfems are your best friend, because they hate you and verbalise it - that's honesty!

    The red pill rage is a process which takes many many years - so be kind and patient with yourself; you will overcome it!

  5. #25
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    ...in the pursuit of truth, you are actually pursuing power. Truth is simply the way people try to dominate a discourse - which again leads to said person wanting to "make sense of the world" - but in actuality is a power play.
    I was unable to understand what you wanted to convey in your post, so please forgive me if I get something wrong. But regarding the above statement, isnt it true for any act ? As far as I understand, all groups are always trying to get into power. Be it feminists, communists, nazis, right-wing, left-wing, tradcons ... or any other group based on ideology.

    What does being in power actually mean... it means ability to exert your ways on other group by force, which can be direct violence or a threat of that. It can also mean the ability to outrightly eliminate other group, by killing them or exiling them from any territory. In both the above cases, what you get in the end is, a society where everyone follows same ideology, either willingly or unwillingly. And being in a society where everyone, or most people adhere to the same ideology which you adhere to willingly, can be amazing, atleast for short term. You have same goals, same way of doing things, same way of solving problems, there is less conflict, less friction.

    But even if two different groups have same goals, they may have very different methods. And the way reality works, not all methods are equal when it comes to yielding results. Some methods will be superior, some will be inferior, some will APPEAR superior in theory but will turn out to be crap, some opposite.

    There is one criteria of difference which is particularly relevant, I guess, between the relative position of you vs the position African Daoist (and probably me too) are taking. I dont think anyone can argue with your assessment of situation that so many crappy people get to enjoy the benefits of the system because they are crappy, the argument atleast from me will be, on a different thing. And that is long term vs short term.

    Forget me for a moment, imagine you vs some dude with kids, living in relatively peaceful life in rural/suburban area. His interests and your interests have a major conflict. For you, its very important to maximize returns in YOUR life, which will end in few decades. His interests on the other hand, are atleast 3-4 generations ahead. The strategy you propose, getting it done by hook or crook is less likely to work for him, from working I mean maintaining a peaceful and harmonious state of the family and immediate society. He may get things done by little hook and lots of crook, but his kids may not be able to replicate that, they may throw their hook at the wrong party, or just fail in life to achieve that "peace and harmony" and may end up in extreme misery, which will then carry over to next generation and so on.

    Now I cant say about African Daoist, but I always prefer a strategy which works in long term than in short term for variety of reasons :-

    1. It has worked for me wonderfully, many of my decisions which I took in the past, are now adding up and giving me disproportionate returns. My peers actually tried to make fun of my methods "Oh that will never happen !", "You will abandon it eventually", etc etc... but they are not the ones who are laughing now. And its just beginning, I am only in early thirties, which brings me to next point...

    2. I still need to follow a strategy that works for me for atleast 5 more decades. Yeah I may not live to 80 years or I may live even farther, but I feel its still good to plan for 80 years of life than planning for just 5-10 years ahead.

    3. Last but not least, I borrow a lot of benefits from that chunk of western society which is very family oriented. Almost all the skills I know in my life, I learnt from sources (like books, blogs, articles, tutorials, videos, etc) are created by white western men. They are my teachers, and its an Indian tradition, which I respect deeply, that teachers are considered above and beyond everything, even parents and god. That is why I am extremely loyal to them in spirit, even if I myself dont wish to create a family.

    Again, sorry for long post if I get your meaning wrong, I am trying to explain the situation that while your assessment of society and your strategy works for you and probably optimal for you, it can be quite suboptimal or may not work at all for some people who otherwise have very similar ideals to you (like being MGTOW).
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  6. #26

    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Very good points.

  7. #27

    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    I was unable to understand what you wanted to convey in your post, so please forgive me if I get something wrong. But regarding the above statement, isnt it true for any act ? As far as I understand, all groups are always trying to get into power. Be it feminists, communists, nazis, right-wing, left-wing, tradcons ... or any other group based on ideology.

    What does being in power actually mean... it means ability to exert your ways on other group by force, which can be direct violence or a threat of that. It can also mean the ability to outrightly eliminate other group, by killing them or exiling them from any territory. In both the above cases, what you get in the end is, a society where everyone follows same ideology, either willingly or unwillingly. And being in a society where everyone, or most people adhere to the same ideology which you adhere to willingly, can be amazing, atleast for short term. You have same goals, same way of doing things, same way of solving problems, there is less conflict, less friction.

    But even if two different groups have same goals, they may have very different methods. And the way reality works, not all methods are equal when it comes to yielding results. Some methods will be superior, some will be inferior, some will APPEAR superior in theory but will turn out to be crap, some opposite.

    There is one criteria of difference which is particularly relevant, I guess, between the relative position of you vs the position African Daoist (and probably me too) are taking. I dont think anyone can argue with your assessment of situation that so many crappy people get to enjoy the benefits of the system because they are crappy, the argument atleast from me will be, on a different thing. And that is long term vs short term.

    Forget me for a moment, imagine you vs some dude with kids, living in relatively peaceful life in rural/suburban area. His interests and your interests have a major conflict. For you, its very important to maximize returns in YOUR life, which will end in few decades. His interests on the other hand, are atleast 3-4 generations ahead. The strategy you propose, getting it done by hook or crook is less likely to work for him, from working I mean maintaining a peaceful and harmonious state of the family and immediate society. He may get things done by little hook and lots of crook, but his kids may not be able to replicate that, they may throw their hook at the wrong party, or just fail in life to achieve that "peace and harmony" and may end up in extreme misery, which will then carry over to next generation and so on.

    Now I cant say about African Daoist, but I always prefer a strategy which works in long term than in short term for variety of reasons :-

    1. It has worked for me wonderfully, many of my decisions which I took in the past, are now adding up and giving me disproportionate returns. My peers actually tried to make fun of my methods "Oh that will never happen !", "You will abandon it eventually", etc etc... but they are not the ones who are laughing now. And its just beginning, I am only in early thirties, which brings me to next point...

    2. I still need to follow a strategy that works for me for atleast 5 more decades. Yeah I may not live to 80 years or I may live even farther, but I feel its still good to plan for 80 years of life than planning for just 5-10 years ahead.

    3. Last but not least, I borrow a lot of benefits from that chunk of western society which is very family oriented. Almost all the skills I know in my life, I learnt from sources (like books, blogs, articles, tutorials, videos, etc) are created by white western men. They are my teachers, and its an Indian tradition, which I respect deeply, that teachers are considered above and beyond everything, even parents and god. That is why I am extremely loyal to them in spirit, even if I myself dont wish to create a family.

    Again, sorry for long post if I get your meaning wrong, I am trying to explain the situation that while your assessment of society and your strategy works for you and probably optimal for you, it can be quite suboptimal or may not work at all for some people who otherwise have very similar ideals to you (like being MGTOW).
    You made very good points.

  8. #28
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    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by African-Daoist View Post
    There is no good guh or bad guys the way I see it, life is not a movie, there are just those who make decisions that improve their lives whatever that may mean to them and those who let themselves be victims.
    I agree with this sentiment 100%. People are just people and they react to their personal circumstances. While I've met some (to me) stange individuals in my time every single one them is just trying to do the best he can with the cards he's been dealt. IMO there's far too much of this trying to compartmentalise everyone and put them in boxes.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

  9. #29

    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    I agree with this sentiment 100%. People are just people and they react to their personal circumstances. While I've met some (to me) stange individuals in my time every single one them is just trying to do the best he can with the cards he's been dealt. IMO there's far too much of this trying to compartmentalise everyone and put them in boxes.
    I agree. I think at times we need that mental imagery of good /evil to help us live with some of our more questionable actions.

  10. #30
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    I agree with this sentiment 100%. People are just people and they react to their personal circumstances. While I've met some (to me) stange individuals in my time every single one them is just trying to do the best he can with the cards he's been dealt. IMO there's far too much of this trying to compartmentalise everyone and put them in boxes.
    But the variation in the dealt cards, can be huge AND incompatible. There may be no good or bad on absolute scale, but conflict of interests is a very real thing. And conflicts can be as severe as either them or us, but not both. Which is why I support compartmentalization, atleast in two boxes, one I can live with, other I must avoid (by any means necessary). I cannot assume, that the people in that other box will be willing to learn, and I am quite sure that there are many boxes where I will be absolutely unwilling to learn.

    When conflict is greater than a threshold, there must be separation, otherwise there will be no peace, and none of the "boxes" will thrive. If there is separation (either by actual separation, or one group getting eliminated), the survivor(s) can prosper.

    Everyone got their ideology AND tolerance. There are things I can tolerate, even if it doesnt match with my ideology, and there are things which I cannot tolerate. I will perceive it as a danger to my existence. If I face any unwarranted aggression from that group, I will be forced to retaliate, or else I will risk extinction (atleast metaphorically if not physically).

    I can tolerate pretty much everyone here on this forum, if we meet in real world, we can probably chat for hours, even if we have huge ideological difference. I am quite sure, if there is such a difference, we will be curious to learn where the differences coming from in greater detail. Thats compatibility, and its cool. But on the other hand, I CANNOT tolerate feminists and sjws. I dont want to talk to them even for a minute, I am not interested in listening to their stories, I will steer clear of them and will try my best to keep them away from me. I will do that because I believe, that any interaction has the possibility of getting hot, hotter than I am comfortable with.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  11. #31
    Senior Member AdTheBad's Avatar
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    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by African-Daoist View Post
    I agree with most of what you said regarding the necessity of cleaning the shit in our front yard to take a bit of liberty with your assertions. Just wanted to add that even though personally I really dont think its relevant to me if human goes on after I am gone, I realise in some sense my identity has become tied to me improving my immediate vicinity in any way I can not because of next year, next week or tomorrow but because at that very , moment I would be going against my own values if I chose to turn a blind eye to certain situations. I dont know if what I do will have an impact in the future but for now its enough for me that it makes a difference to the quality of my life now.

    Its like Nietzsche said about the abyss looking back into one when one looks into it; I do not want to become someone I despise, simply to get back at those who have hurt me, I'd rather help mend than break. I know it sounds idealistic but I do it knowing that what I fix can be broken again even more quickly than I fixed it but sometimes its just enough to keep the candle in the hallway and not fret about if the wind will blow it out. I feel gratitude to all those great men who have made my life meaningful by being the lone candle in a hurricane of confusion and while I am here the only way I can pay them for their labour of love and maybe even come to understand why they did it is to pay it forward.
    Really I believe thats all any of us can do and does it not underpin the primary principles of mgtow?

    "societies who had attained a high level of opulence usually started to go against those principles that ensured their ascendence and eventually it would collapse under the weight of its own hubris"

    ..... is repeated many times in history regardless of the historian, the archeology would suggest that this is indeed the case?

    A sense of fair-play regarding wider society is perhaps, and always has been (if one considers the writings of the ancients) contractual, the social-contract which so many decievers, manipulators and feckless bastards are so fond of appealing to when they want free stuff and unearned respect and as a contract it ought to be fair to both parties and when its not then.....no contract?

    Anyway, its clear that the only sense of fair-play available is that which one shows to oneself primarily and everyone else only generally since its unlikely to be reciprocal and hopefully self-improvement, self-care with a bit of generosity of spirit might attract like-minds (we already know that generosity attracts all sorts of malice and freeloaders but self-care should bat them off) and therefore localised social-contract and localised fair-play (in theory)?
    Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free. Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate. Zhuangzi

    someone asked the poet Sophocles: "How are you in regard to sex, Sophocles? Can you still make love to a woman?" Hush man, the poet replied, I am very glad to have escaped from this, like a slave who has escaped from a mad and cruel master."

    Dont worry about me. Worry about why you're worried about me.

  12. #32

    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by African-Daoist View Post
    Philosophy has always faced two major challenges in my opinion, the first is a problem of apriori attribution of value which makes it difficult to reach a concensus as to what can be considered valuable from various vantage points. The second which is just as important is an objective valuation of what certain concepts (words ) mean.
    You have worked out your analysis of the situation based on your interpretation that there is only chaos and I have worked out mine on the premise that even within chaos there is order.
    I have to assume that a person has to have an understanding of what the concept of order is to be able to assert some contrary concept as chaos existing; whether you consider it arbitrary it still essentially is the template people use when they try to juxtapose the chaos .

    To be candid with you it will be difficult to have this conversation if we just keep shifting the goal posts so as to one up each other. The terms we are using actually have to have a concrete meaning or it will just devolve into pointless rhetoric. If we are to follow your assertions then the laws of physics are null and void... a human heart should be replaceable with an anus and so on.

    When I say there are universal values, I follow the philosophy of Napoleon who said god is on the side with the most artillery. I am not trying to validate the poor decisions that men have made which has caused the present outcome, rather I am saying that there are so many ways in which men have given up their sovereignty and this has been capitalised upon by both women and the power hungry. I never made an assertion as to right or wrong ( good or evil ), all I am saying is that the psychological mechanism of humans is such that the present state of things does not seem likely to continue indefinitely. All through history tyrants have been toppled even when it seemed they were all powerful. I personally am not the mushy sentimental type who thinks every persons life is meant to be a homage to homer, rather some people serve as examples of what not to do; some might think that is bad but the way I see things, it all works out.

    So yes there might be tyranny but even tyranny is a form of order where the powerful lord over the less conscious.

    I think the lens of morality is what you use to assess my statements and hence you assume I am making a case for men being some righteous long suffering matyrs caught under the tyranny of some pharoah as that's the only way your statement about Harvey Weinstein comes across to me. There is no good or bad guys the way I see it, life is not a movie, there are just those who make decisions that improve their lives whatever that may mean to them and those who let themselves be victims. I went to great lengths to distance myself from this duality of morality but you still roped me into it; I earlier stated that I donít think societal morality is the same as universal morality.


    Anyway to sum up all I am saying is that tyranny is not an efficient form of social control in humans; it might work for other organisms but humans might accept a soft tyranny but revolt once it is clear that the boot on their neck is not because of benevolence. Cheers
    Tried editing and deleted my previous post.

  13. #33

    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    @AdTheBad

    I think morality is the most efficient and productive ay to order a society and like you surmise that does not mean one should turn off his discernment simply because it seems to be a good system.
    The ancients did not simply pull moral values out of their collective hairy asses, they must have observed and throught trial and error realised that a society needed some structure to be able to benefit everyone else we would be all so bus ripping eachother off and fail to notice when another tribe comes in and slits our throats at night or even when a natural disaster strikes.

  14. #34
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by AdTheBad View Post
    Anyway, its clear that the only sense of fair-play available is that which one shows to oneself primarily and everyone else only generally since its unlikely to be reciprocal and hopefully self-improvement, self-care with a bit of generosity of spirit might attract like-minds (we already know that generosity attracts all sorts of malice and freeloaders but self-care should bat them off) and therefore localised social-contract and localised fair-play (in theory)?
    Exactly what I believe. Interaction and socialization with the people who have same or similar group strategy / ideology / principles. And shutting off everyone else, as much as possible. The only interaction I want with them is no interaction. And if they force any kind of interaction, its an "act of war", and I will assume all moral authority to retaliate in whatever way I can.

    I do acknowledge though, that this strategy is not always possible. Most often in jobs, where everyone is a snake along with a general "dog eat dog" culture. Its extremely prevalent where I live. I understand that it can be so bad that, that the only solution might be changing job / moving away, which itself is not always possible.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  15. #35

    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    Exactly what I believe. Interaction and socialization with the people who have same or similar group strategy / ideology / principles. And shutting off everyone else, as much as possible. The only interaction I want with them is no interaction. And if they force any kind of interaction, its an "act of war", and I will assume all moral authority to retaliate in whatever way I can.

    I do acknowledge though, that this strategy is not always possible. Most often in jobs, where everyone is a snake along with a general "dog eat dog" culture. Its extremely prevalent where I live. I understand that it can be so bad that, that the only solution might be changing job / moving away, which itself is not always possible.
    I think the work place became like that due to the introduction of women. Ever notice how men become back stabbing and egoistic little snitches the moment a woman joins a group? Its no wonder in the bible woman was to first to seperate from "god"; in my opinion it seems to indicate narcissism or a state where a person tries to imagine themselves as seperate from nature which funny enough is the exact punishment the biblical narrative states as the penalty for partaking in that "fruit".

    Any environment where women are excluded always has a sense of camaraderie.

  16. #36
    Senior Member Opaque's Avatar
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    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    The second which is just as important is an objective valuation of what certain concepts (words ) mean.
    In the way you describe the 'meaning of words', words don't actually don't have an 'objective valuation'. Let us take the word: 'good'. In the ancient Greece, Zeus was 'good' because he was healthy and strong. So in this sense, to be 'good' is to be 'strong', and why the need to be strong? So you can dominate others around you, making you 'good'. A good person was a person of power, of significance.

    Juxtapose this with the modern usage in everyday conversation of the word 'good'. 'good' would mean someone who is: cooperative, compliant, easy going, sympathetic ''he is a good guy, she is a good gal''. Which is very different to the Ancient Greek concept of ''good''.

    So this illustrates that actually the meaning of words shifts overtime and is not static, therefore, to some extent at least there is no ''objective valuation''.

    If we are to follow your assertions then the laws of physics are null and void... a human heart should be replaceable with an anus and so on.
    No actually, because we are not talking about physics, or biology. We are talking about the human enterprise, and language itself which is quite different to studying gravity.

    all I am saying is that the psychological mechanism of humans is such that the present state of things does not seem likely to continue indefinitely. All through history tyrants have been toppled even when it seemed they were all powerful. I personally am not the mushy sentimental type who thinks every persons life is meant to be a homage to homer, rather some people serve as examples of what not to do; some might think that is bad but the way I see things, it all works out.
    I don't know you personally, and none of my posts are directed at you, but I think this is exactly the kind of (with all due respect) pseudo religious ideas which do not at all help the average MGTOW man. Plenty of people, more intelligent than you or me, have talked about 'collapse of civilisation' and it has yet to manifest. Women, even in their older age are living very satisfied lives in comparison to the average man in the same society, same social stata.

    Take any 50 year old women here in London. She probably has divorced one or two men, milked them in court, kicked her children out of the home, enjoys going to Yoga, close group of friends, hobbies and is probably more sexually satisfied than the average man. And she doesn't have to pay for it either.

    So I would say again, that you may be misinformed about the situation, the actual 'everyday' situation of the average man or you are trying to convince yourself of ''making the best out of a bad situation''. And it sounds like Eastern mysticism, reincarnation and so forth, which has its' own issues, which is outside the scope of this conversation.

    This is meant to be an insult, because I am guilty of this kind of behaviour, but it just doesn't correspond to reality.

    The way society has been and always will be, is that 'a man must toil, and a woman must benefit off his toil'. This is the case even in a patriarchal society like where I come from in Saudi Arabia, same in US, Canada, and even very primitive societies.

    It may change slightly here and there. No one bothers you if you don't give your seat up on public transport nowadays, even to a pregnant woman. But it will never go all the way to TRUE equality, never.

    This is why I have to very much disagree with the 'it will work out in the end' type of mentality. Somehow your 'it works out in the end' just doesn't make sense when you consider the 'everyday' interactions of any given group of humans in any given society.
    A mother cannot raise a boy to be a man, not because he needs a father figure; but because she favours team vagina over her own son.

    Tradcon women are the most manipulative of all kinds of women, because they infect you with false hope.
    Radfems are your best friend, because they hate you and verbalise it - that's honesty!

    The red pill rage is a process which takes many many years - so be kind and patient with yourself; you will overcome it!

  17. #37
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by African-Daoist View Post
    I think the work place became like that due to the introduction of women. Ever notice how men become back stabbing and egoistic little snitches the moment a woman joins a group? Its no wonder in the bible woman was to first to seperate from "god"; in my opinion it seems to indicate narcissism or a state where a person tries to imagine themselves as seperate from nature which funny enough is the exact punishment the biblical narrative states as the penalty for partaking in that "fruit".

    Any environment where women are excluded always has a sense of camaraderie.
    Oh, not only they have awesome camaraderie, but they even perform a lot better. I have an interesting story on this, my personal experience. We have this culture of taking extra coaching to clear entrance exams of colleges, especially engineering colleges, and when I was enrolled in one, my batch was very small (~20 students) with only boys. And then there was this another batch in the same building (but in other classroom), which had over 60 students, boys and girls mixed.

    One day they asked both the batches to sit in a same room, a very large hall, and the teachers were about to give lecture to all of us combined. Naturally, both batches formed two clusters, my batch just took a corner, and the others occupied rest of the room. During the lecture, the teacher was asking questions, giving us exercises and tricky problems to solve (it was a physics class), and the overall performance of my batch was on whole another level. In their batch, the best student apparently was a girl, based on her responses, though she would be barely considered average within my batch.

    Now, the most interesting part of this story. After a few days, a guy from their batch was transferred to our batch. He was not very good, mostly "meh" standard. But, within a month, he went on to become one of the best in my batch, far surpassing everybody in his previous batch !!! I didnt paid this incident much attention, but now when I think about it through red pilled lenses, it all makes perfect sense. There are very real reasons why patriarchy works, and works so good !
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  18. #38

    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    In the way you describe the 'meaning of words', words don't actually don't have an 'objective valuation'. Let us take the word: 'good'. In the ancient Greece, Zeus was 'good' because he was healthy and strong. So in this sense, to be 'good' is to be 'strong', and why the need to be strong? So you can dominate others around you, making you 'good'. A good person was a person of power, of significance.

    Juxtapose this with the modern usage in everyday conversation of the word 'good'. 'good' would mean someone who is: cooperative, compliant, easy going, sympathetic ''he is a good guy, she is a good gal''. Which is very different to the Ancient Greek concept of ''good''.

    So this illustrates that actually the meaning of words shifts overtime and is not static, therefore, to some extent at least there is no ''objective valuation''.



    No actually, because we are not talking about physics, or biology. We are talking about the human enterprise, and language itself which is quite different to studying gravity.



    I don't know you personally, and none of my posts are directed at you, but I think this is exactly the kind of (with all due respect) pseudo religious ideas which do not at all help the average MGTOW man. Plenty of people, more intelligent than you or me, have talked about 'collapse of civilisation' and it has yet to manifest. Women, even in their older age are living very satisfied lives in comparison to the average man in the same society, same social stata.

    Take any 50 year old women here in London. She probably has divorced one or two men, milked them in court, kicked her children out of the home, enjoys going to Yoga, close group of friends, hobbies and is probably more sexually satisfied than the average man. And she doesn't have to pay for it either.

    So I would say again, that you may be misinformed about the situation, the actual 'everyday' situation of the average man or you are trying to convince yourself of ''making the best out of a bad situation''. And it sounds like Eastern mysticism, reincarnation and so forth, which has its' own issues, which is outside the scope of this conversation.

    This is meant to be an insult, because I am guilty of this kind of behaviour, but it just doesn't correspond to reality.

    The way society has been and always will be, is that 'a man must toil, and a woman must benefit off his toil'. This is the case even in a patriarchal society like where I come from in Saudi Arabia, same in US, Canada, and even very primitive societies.

    It may change slightly here and there. No one bothers you if you don't give your seat up on public transport nowadays, even to a pregnant woman. But it will never go all the way to TRUE equality, never.

    This is why I have to very much disagree with the 'it will work out in the end' type of mentality. Somehow your 'it works out in the end' just doesn't make sense when you consider the 'everyday' interactions of any given group of humans in any given society.
    I dont think this discussion will yield any fruit as you seem to be more concerned with winning than getting at the truth but lest you think I chickened out let me respond to clarify why I think our conversation will not be productive .


    First of all, you keep using ad hominem attacks rather than discuss the validity of my ideas, you refer to me as naive at first and then you question my intellect. Even if I concede that the unnamed people who you assume are more intelligent than you and I, ( I would have said speak for yourself but you chose to speak for me too ) it in no way makes them the sole arbritrators of reality, as an intelligent person can still come to the wrong conclusions based on inadequate or tainted data and a less intelligent person could through perseverance unlock the secret unavailable to his more gifted peer. Processing power is not the whole race as you seem to imply, a good example is Thomas Edison. So an appeal to authority seems invalid to me.

    Secondly, you conveniently ignore the statements I made or maybe you did not read them, as I would not want to presume you were incapable of understanding the gist of my position. And then you create a strawman which you can easily punch holes in. And even the holes are inconsistent as you select only the data that agrees with your pre established position.

    Furthermore, you seem to think that religion or any form of mysticism being invoked, by default makes the ideas null and void. Most civilisations were built around that idea which you consider so trivial and beneath contempt. And the product of its extraction is what we are seeing in society today with people in despair and some acting like farm animals. Far be it from me to advocate religion or even mysticism to any one but I think it is important not to throw the baby out with the bath water . In the desire to get away from the shackles of archaic religiousity most people have shackled themselves with post modern nihilism.

    So with my above explanation I am sure you will understand why I think its best we agree to disagree . Maybe next time we might be able to have an argument in good faith. Cheers

  19. #39
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    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    You (my fellow members) have possibly noticed my tendency to give a ‘like’ to almost every post I see in a thread that I start. That is no mistake. Usually if I start a thread it’s because I am interested in it as a topic and want to hear different viewpoints, even those I disagree with. It is a desire for understanding that drives me, not a need to impose my views on others. One form of truth.

    When it comes to questions of morality (the notion of fair-play being one such) it very much depends on the situation of the individual. I have lived my entire life in Ireland and as such my morality will obviously by driven by my own experiences. Who am I to judge what it is like to live in New York, California, London, Saudi, or India to name just a few? I can’t, it’s impossible.

    While there are many similarities that we expose here often, my world view is often quite different to my home view, there are ways I am free to behave here (good and bad) that just wouldn’t fly elsewhere and I am sure it is the same for all of you.

    Morality in today’s world is geo-political in nature and cannot be otherwise. With the advent of the internet these differences are being outed – one form of truth telling if you will, but…

    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH

    Accepting this is the beginning of understanding, as I said at the start of this post this is my true incentive.

    Many of us seek truth in what we see happening around us here and now and this is perfectly natural. Like it or not we are all susceptible to outside influences and react accordingly.

    What African-Daoist is talking about (and please correct me if I’m wrong) when he talks of the fall of societies and indeed Nations is a different kind of truth.

    Nations rise and fall, history shows us this, and that is the truth. As to why they fall that is always debatable but his assertion that the ‘truth’ is that no nation can sustain an overly opulent society is correct, but this is a truth that goes unnoticed until it’s too late except maybe to the few, like ourselves, who refuse to accept that which we are told without evidence.

    The ‘truth’ in this case is one that’s impossible for most to see except when viewed through the focussing lens of history simply because the human lifetime is too short to appreciate the changes, which is what I believe African-Daoist was stating.

    The differences in opinion on this thread aren’t really differences in absolute terms, they are merely differences in timescale and environment. The ‘truth’ that African-Daoist speaks of is not shrouded in current day politics nor societal structures, it is simply fact, and that is a ‘truth’ I can believe.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

  20. #40
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: A Sense of Fair Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    You (my fellow members) have possibly noticed my tendency to give a ‘like’ to almost every post I see in a thread that I start. That is no mistake. Usually if I start a thread it’s because I am interested in it as a topic and want to hear different viewpoints, even those I disagree with. It is a desire for understanding that drives me, not a need to impose my views on others. One form of truth.
    When I saw so many likes suddenly, I actually thought some sp4mz0r-b0t got inside and started clicking on any and every button it can get its b0tty hands on !

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH
    I too believe in something similar, though I'll put it differently. Saying it like how you said, is a bit too much simplification. Of course, my beliefs what I have today on that subject, evolved over time, influenced by different ideas I came into contact with.

    My belief is, the absolute truth cannot be known. We perceive reality with our sensory organs, and then interpret them with the existing information, AND biases, already present in the fatty tissue resting within our skulls. And there is no way to fix the situation. But, there is this thing called, scientific method or scientific principle and many other things its called. The idea is, for any phenomenon, there can be infinite hypothesis, but we should tilt toward simpler explanations. Think of it this way, if I put two dots on paper and tell you to draw something that touches both points, the simplest thing you can do is draw a line, but if you are not constrained by that, you can draw infinite number of shapes that can touch those points, a circle, an ellipse, a square, random messy doodling all over the paper, etc. Some of you will identify that I am talking about Occam's Razor principle.

    The second point is, the hypothesis or theory should not violate any observed experiment, without explanation. If it does, then the hypothesis is not fully developed yet, it can still be useful as a line of thinking, but the work on theory isnt finished, and its risky to apply it to solve problems.

    The third point, is that the theory should be falsifiable. It should be possible to describe experiments and results, which if conducted and those results actually happen, the theory will be considered falsified. Theories which violate this principle are those which go into fictionalisms, like talking about afterlife or some other existing worlds (like heaven, hell, purguratory, etc..). How one is supposed to test for those ? What experiment(s) can be conducted and what are the constraints on results, which if realized, will falsify the theory ?

    So yeah, I do believe that there is no such thing as "Absolute Truth", because its impossible to determine the "absolute"ness of anything. But, I do believe in experimentation, observation, building up theories which can then be used to enhance the solutions to existing or future problems, and then refining/fixing those theories as new observations happen.

    Why it matters to things related to society ? Well, we have observed in history, that whenever rampant liberalism and social parasatism takes place in any empire/civilization, it comes down. This pattern X happening just before Y, has happened too many times. So one possible theory is, X causes Y or X leads to Y, over a sufficiently large period of time (few centuries). Now finding out that some people are living awesome lives while being absolute parasites, DOES NOT violate this theory. This theory never said that the empire/civilization/society in question is going to come down within a single generation or lifetime of a single person, it acknowledges that it takes a bit more time than that.

    The second thing why it matters, is that if in a discussion you propose a theory (or a "truth") which aims to topple or criticize an existing theory, but cannot explain all the past observations, then your theory is unfinished, It cannot be accepted as truth, and especially if the current/existing theory is ABLE to explain all the observations. Its like a wrestling match, there is one which is holding the champion title, and there are some hoops to jump to get that title. Just because your theory is different, doesnt mean that it gets to have that title without doing the usual drill. Of course, nothing wrong with discussing that idea to work on that theory, but it should be acknowledged that the work on it is not yet finished.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman


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