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    New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Well men, I am busy again these days, but as I said before in another thread, I think that I should talk about this important topic as soon as possible. I spent some years researching about different religions and philosophies among Mgtows out there (and this is one of the reasons I did not access this forum for a long time), but many of those ideas are not completely clear and coherent. So you all need pay attention in this topic and think more about this, because religious and philosophic worldviews are a basic tool and reference to guide our goals and analyze situations and actions in our daily life, in the past and in the future (and not only among Mgtows, of course). And those who have more ideas and opinions about philosophical and religious topics, can post it here. But dont worry about replying quickly because this will be a looooong and complex text.

    On that topic about the creation of artificial wombs and genetically enhanced humans, for instance, some guys say this would be a great idea, but some guys say it would be dangerous and immoral. Some Mgtows support more technological and Transhumanist ideals, but some support more Primitivist (as luddite or survivalist) ideals. And some other Mgtows support more Hedonism, Extinctionism, Conservatism or Libertarianism. All of these ideologies have pros and cons, of course. But how can we really decide if some idea is a good or a bad idea? Moral or immoral (or even ammoral)? True or false? We need to judge based on some "reference points" (and even some Supreme reference point).

    Of course, there are many theological and religious "supreme beliefs" among Mgtows and other Antifeminists (Christians, Atheists, Agnostics and even more), and this topic sometimes cause in-fights among us. And we can also see that some common philosophies among Mgtows and other Antifeminist groups could be classified among the "Stoic and Minimalist" groups (as many "monks" and "ghosts" Mgtows), the "Developmentist and Libertarian" groups (as many PUAs) and the "Supremacist and Totalitarian" groups (as many Far-Right Antifeminists).

    But based on these most common religious and philosophical beliefs among Mgtows and Antifeminists (and even among non-Mgtow and non-Antifeminist ideologies, of course), an important point in all of that is Power. Then, firstly we need to talk more about this. (And there are many things to talk about this, trust me). For instance, firstly, we need to define what exactly is Power.

    According to Wikipedia, there are some different meanings:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power

    The most popular meaning when we talk about ideologies is about social and political power, i.e., the capacity of some one to influence the actions or beliefs of others.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_...and_political)

    But based on more complex philosophical meanings, Power is more than social influence. The famous Aristotle's philosophical theory about Potentiality and Actuality, for instance, talk about the power (potentiality) that something can become another thing, for instance, a seed that has the power to become a tree, and a tree that has the power to become a wooden chair (but of course, some seeds dont have the power to become trees, and some trees dont have the power to become chairs). You can read more about this theory here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potent..._and_actuality

    Then, in a more complex philosophy, we can define Power in this way:

    Power is the capability, ability or possibility that something has to influence, to do, to become or to be something.

    Everytime you read the word Power in this text, you must remember this meaning above. (And I will write this word many times here).

    Maybe some of you dislike such complex philosophical and religious topics, but at least this topic is important for all Mgtows. And not only for Mgtows. Power is important for everyone. Just realize all that recent feminist propaganda about "Women's Empowerment", for instance:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_empowerment

    And this is one of the things that made me realize the importance of Powers among societies and ideologies through human history. For instance, Autocracies are a system of government that a king or a leader has all the Power to decide the rules. And Democracies are the system of government that the people has the Power to vote to decide the rules. In a Anarchy, every one could have the Power to chose how to live his or her own life without a government. And so on. Then, it seems that developing and following a Mgtow ideology will only work if we also focus on the Powers that can be useful to live in our current society.

    We can say that everything that exist (and even everything that does not exist) have Powers. For instance, we can say that ghosts have the power to scare some people, even if ghosts dont exist. And gods have the power to influence an entire society and our behaviors, even if gods dont exist, and son on. Even apparently obvious and useless skills are Powers, because they are Abilities and Capabilities that something have. For instance, a chair has the Power to be a chair, obvious. A chair has not the Power to be a fridge. But sometimes a chair has the Power to be used as a ladder. Sometimes, many Powers seems to be useless, but even so, it is important to analyze all the Powers (Capabilities, Skills and Possibilities) that an object have, because one day it may be very usefull and can even save your life (a chair can be usefull when you dont have a ladder, for instance). But I will talk more about this topic about "values" later. Let's come back to the metaphysical and theological topics firstly.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism

    It is important to know more about the nature of Powers because to solve our problems and reach our goals, we need to focus more on the Powers that are important, not exactly only on Divine and Supernatural Powers (as Theists believe) or only on Technological and Natural Powers (as Atheists believe) or only on Mysterious and Unknown Powers (as Agnostics believe). This "Potentialist" philosophy could be a middle way among different Mgtows' beliefs (Theist, Atheist or Agnostic).

    Because if you have cancer, for instance, the most important thing for you is to find something that has the Power to cure cancer. It does not matter if such Power comes from some god, or some technology, or from nature, or from some magic or from some unknown source. The most important point in all of this is the Power to cure cancer, after all. A Power that works, in the best way if possible.

    You can see that such philosophy focused on Powers can be pragmatic and even a wide philosophy that works even inside other philosophies and religions. For instance, even if the Bible's God is the real God, He is only God because of his Powers. Omnipotence is one of the main features of God in some religions as Christianity and Islam.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence

    But, for instance, if some day the Bible's God give all his Powers to the Devil, then the Devil would become the new "God". And the Bible's God would not be so important in our lives anymore, because he would not have his Powers anymore. The Powers are the most important points. If you have Power enough you can decide about the others' lives, decide how the world will works, decide what is Right or Wrong, and even what is True or False.

    By the way, this is another main point inside religions that divide Humans from Gods: Gods have much more Powers than Humans. And this is the main reason why humans look for Gods' help. Even because you would not need Gods if you had the Powers to solve all your problems, to cure your deseases, to change how the world works, to be immortal, or to save your soul after your death, to help your friends, to punish your enemies, and so on.

    On the other hand, we can say that nowadays Humans also study Sciences and create new technologies mostly because they believe that such things have Powers to solve our problems. But again, the most important point here is not exactly Sciences and Technologies as well, but the Powers that Sciences and Technologies can have, and that can be useful in our daily life.

    As you can see, talking metaphysically, Powers are abstract things that may come from supernatural sources (as Gods and Magic), natural sources (as Nature and Technologies) or unknown sources (mysterious Powers that no one can exactly know if they come from natural or supernatural sources).

    Of course, many Powers are good and useful for us, but not all of them. Many Powers are "demons" and bad for us, as the Powers that many weapons, virus and natural hazards have to harm and kill us. Some Powers can be good for some people but bad for other people, as Feminist laws that give favorable social Powers for women but at the same time try to reduce men's social Powers. And many Powers seem to be insignificant, useless and unimportant in our daily life, as the Power that a single grain of salt has to change the taste in our food.

    But even so, Powers are everywhere, many of them are useful and important in our daily life. Many times we dont pay the right attention on them, and we just realize their importance when we lost such Powers, as a man that only realize his eyes' visual Powers were important when he went blind, and this is why paying attention and developing the Powers that we have around us must be our main focus.

    Then, another important point is about to know which Power works or does not work, and more than this, to know what is true or false. After all, some people can say that magic and sorcery really have Power to cure cancer. But how can we know if this is really true and if a Power really works? And such questions have to do with another fundamental topic inside religions, philosophies and sciences: Epistemology.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

    The English philosopher Francis Bacon once said "Knowledge is Power", his most famous quote, in the 1500's century. He was one of the creators of Empirism, the epistemological theory that is the base for Modern Natural Sciences and for the Scientifical Method, that we use nowadays to define what is scientifically true or false.

    But actually, lies and ignorance also can give Powers for some people. Many charlatans and false prophets have Powers and Abilities to influence many people using lies. And many times we have more Power to live better our lives when we dont know about some "hard truths" ("ignorance is a bliss", another philosopher once said). As I said before, Powers are everywhere.

    Anyway, there are different Epistemological theories about what should be our main source of knowledge. Empirism is based on physical senses and experiments, and it is the main source of knowledge for Sciences. Rationalism is based on abstract reason and logics, and it is more common among philosophies. Fideism is based on faith and it is the main source of knowledge for religions and supernatural beliefs. And there is also Skepticism, the theory that we can not really know what is really true or false, because everything may be just an illusion (something like the movie The Matrix), and has more to do with Agnosticism.

    All of these theories has Pros and Cons, but the most important point to find the truth is also have the Power to find it, even if we never have this Power, as Skeptics believe. This is another important point in some religions as Christianity and Islam, for instance, since God is not only Omnipotent but also Omniscient (He know everything, what is true or lie).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience

    And more than just know what is true or false, an All-Powerful God can even decide what is true or false since He has the Power to create the Reality. It is something like an writer that can write a story in his book. That story is the world he created, and he can decide what is true or false in his story. But that same writer can change his mind and he can just rewrite and recreate the world in his story, changing what is true or false in that world. So, the writer is omnipotent to decide how will be the Reality in his book, and then he can decide and change what is true or false there.

    Among Mgtows, I think that all the knowledge (and ignorance) that can give us more Powers to be more free are useful. The point, of course, is to know which kind of knowledge is useful and how to know if such knowledge is true. Maybe we will only know that if we pay attention in how society and women act in our daily life, and researching about what other Mgtows have to say about their own experiences with women and society. But each Mgtow can find his own Powers to know more about what he should believe in.

    But Powers are not only useful in our common daily life, of course. As I said before, they are important to decide our major ideals about the future, including for Mgtows. If we go back to the that point about Artificial Wombs, for instance, which kind of Powers we can have if we create such technology? Obviously, one of them is the Possibility (Power) to make children without needing a woman belly. And it also gives to men the Capability (Power) to have babies without needing a woman. There are some Pros, but of course, there are some Cons, not all Powers are totally good, after all. And this guide us to another religious and philosophical topic that also have everything to do with Powers: the Ethics.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

    Because we can say that those who have more Powers can decide what is right or wrong in some points. In religions, Gods decide what is right or wrong and even judge who deserve Heaven, Hell, Reincarnation, Annihilation and so on, because they have Powers to decide the moral rules that Humans must follow and their possible consequences in afterlife.

    And even among Humans, with no Supernatural influences, those who decide the ethical rules tend to be those who have more Powers, as a king or a dictator that create the entire laws that every one should accept as right or wrong, or some popular moral rules that the people decide among themselves, as a formal law created democratically or even informal decisions based on our natural emotions and instincts. It all has to do with Power anyway.

    Then, in Ethics we talk about how to be good, and even how to be (or try to be) perfect. In some philosophies and religions, Perfection is even the highest goal, by the way. But when we talk about Power, Perfection may have different meanings. And this has to do with those 3 ideologies that I said before, common among Mgtows, Antifeminists, but also among other groups: the "stoic and minimalist" group, the "developmentist and libertarian" group and the "supremacist and totalitarian" group. Because these 3 ideological groups are focused on Power too, but in different ways, with different main goals to reach.

    It is a complex topic, of course, but we can say that a Stoic and Minimalist are those who think that it is better to live with the minimum of Powers, only the basic Powers to live a happy and good life. Stoicism is a common philosophy that we can see among some Mgtows and other Antifeminists, and it is based on the ancient greek philosophy that preach that we must only care about the Powers that we really have under our control. (And such Powers are not much).

    A Stoic and Minimalist Ethics is also based on the idea that many bad persons are evil, sad and immoral because they dont accept their real limited Powers and because they try to gather more and more Power to control other persons. But if each one accepts to live with only the few Powers that we really need and that we have under our control, maybe there would be less war among peoples. So the main goal among Stoics and Minimalists would be trying to accept our limited Powers, and to live only with the few Powers enough to live a good life.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

    On the other hand, the Developmentist and Libertarian group are those who wants more and more Powers. It seems because they see that the more Powers you have, the more free you are. And you can even reach a higher goal, like being independent and even living definitely alone, no needing other persons. They seek for Self-development because studying, having more money and physical training can give more Powers to them. I would add the Powers that come from new technologies. It makes sense too. If you could gain all the Powers to create your own food, to cure your own deseases, to defend yourself against all dangers and so on, you could be more free and independent, because you could live completely alone and well, no needing other persons around.

    And this maybe could be also a good moral solution to many problems, because if each one have Powers enough to live alone and well, no one would need to deal with other persons. It would be like to live alone in a desert island, you would not need to care about morality and about harming other persons, because you would have Power enough to live alone and happy. But I think that the problem in this ideology is that having Powers enough to live alone and to be completely independent from society is not possible yet. Maybe in the future, more advanced technologies can give us more Powers to live with no need of other persons. But anyway, possible or not, the ideal goal in this libertarian philosophy seems to be having Powers enough to live completely alone and free.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

    And we also have the "totalitarian and supremacist" group, that just like the "Developmentist and Libertarian" group, also wishes more Powers. But not exactly to live alone and to avoid other persons. This group wishes more Power to influence and control other people with lesser Powers, of course. It is more common among some Far-Right Antifeminist groups. Maybe the idea here is that if you have Power enough, you can even control the morality. It is a dangerous and oppressive idea, but it makes sense. Remember that if you are Omnipotent or if you have Power enough, you can decide what is right or wrong.

    Becoming Omnipotent could be a highest goal for a Supremacist Totalitarian, but it seems to be impossible. But again, with some advanced technologies, in the future we may really have some persons with Super Powers that can control an entire society, creating their own moral rules. Nowadays we even already have some few persons that can control the population of a entire country. See the North Korean dictator. And he is just a common human, as you and me. What about if he really had Super Powers?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

    For now, it is enough. But there are many other things that we can talk about philosophies focused on Powers. Those are just some of the points that I found in my researches among Mgtows and other groups, but there are many other ideas that we can develop. And you must post your ideas here too. This is important because this way, when we have to analyze some ideas (like Transhumanism, Primitivism, Extinctionism, Hedonism, among others) we can focus on this point now: this idea give more Powers to us? And we can judge the Powers that can give us more freedom or more oppression, and so on. I will talk more about this later.
    Last edited by Latinus; July 6, 2021 at 7:27 PM.

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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Hell, that’s a long post with many things to be addressed. Glad to see you’re thinking about these things Latinus.

    So I suggest we tackle them one at a time, beginning with the thread title:

    New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    I have no religion, but even as an atheist I do occasionally ponder the question:

    “What does it all mean?”

    Obviously I have no answers, but here’s a thought that keeps recurring to me. Where it came from I don’t know. I like to think it’s my own unique perspective but I can’t rule out having seen similar perspectives from others that I have since contemplated upon.

    I’m not saying I believe this, but there is one thought I find to be an intriguing one:

    The universe exists;
    We are alive;
    We are part of the universe;
    Therefore the universe is alive (at least in part).

    Having been living with this thought for many years, I’ve occasionally tried to take it a step further, purely as a mind exercise:

    If the universe is alive, at least in part, then what if there are many more parts?
    If there are many more parts, then how many more?
    If there are enough of these parts, could they possibly make a whole?
    And with a HUGE leap, could this whole be alive in a way we don’t understand?

    If so, could this intelligence be what those of faith somehow sense?

    There are a huge number of ifs there I know and I’m not saying they’re true, I’m just asking questions of myself.

    Never mind trying to bring logic and reason to ancient scripts, they were written with the then current beliefs in mind and this, in turn, limited the language they could use.

    Whilst we might think we know a lot about how they acted and thought, I suspect there is MUCH more we don’t know.

    But yet, I respect those names in sacred texts: Jusus, Mohammed, Budda, and many more. These were the thinkers of their day with the what? Charisma? Determination? to get their view of things heard? And usually these views held one core at their centre:

    Respect for others!


    Why can’t we all get along? I wish for world peace! Please support my nomination for Miss Universe next year, or whenever the next one is. Is it every year or is it more like the Olympics?

  3. #3
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    An interesting, albeit overly long opening read.

    Can you clarify the goal here? Is it

    to enable men to choose a way that will empower them personally and the world at large?
    to enable men to choose a way that will empower them personally and to hell with the world at large?
    or both?
    to find a 'winning' philosophy that all MGTOW should aspire to because (it is hoped) it is the best, again either for themselves or for the world at large? or both?
    something else?

    I feel this must be addressed before such a wide ranging undertaking, otherwise we end up in endless waffle.

    Yes we can talk about power. It is very interesting. But to what end? And yes the different types of power, and the fact that we are rather limited in our language and understanding, is a major factor in the difficulty of settling the question.
    A man can pursue power.. Become rich, influential etc.. But at what cost?
    You can shun all of that.. at a cost.
    We might come back to each person deciding what power is and what kind of power he wants. Because we decide which cost/price we want to pay. Which is very MGTOW in essence.
    Interesting.
    Last edited by happybachelor; May 17, 2021 at 12:57 PM.
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    Take the established 'truth' as far as society is concerned and go 180 degrees from that... there you will find the truth. Society is ass-backwards and your job is undoing all that BS you were programmed with your entire life.
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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Quote Originally Posted by Latinus View Post
    I spent some years researching about different religions and philosophies among Mgtows out there
    Interesting.

    May I ask has this been from a personal interest perspective, a scientific analysis perspective, a bit of both, maybe neither?

    If you’ve managed to put together any statistics I’d be very interested.

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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Power of knowing that nothing matters is the root of nihilism.

    And with the void that nihilism creates you can actually choose what your life as you see fit. Stoic? Religious? Atheist? Just enjoying life? All possibilities. The power to do as you see fit with your limited time on earth is probably the main focus of GYOW.

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    Senior Member Latinus's Avatar
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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Hell, that’s a long post with many things to be addressed. Glad to see you’re thinking about these things Latinus.

    So I suggest we tackle them one at a time, beginning with the thread title:

    New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    I have no religion, but even as an atheist I do occasionally ponder the question:

    “What does it all mean?”

    Obviously I have no answers, but here’s a thought that keeps recurring to me. Where it came from I don’t know. I like to think it’s my own unique perspective but I can’t rule out having seen similar perspectives from others that I have since contemplated upon.

    I’m not saying I believe this, but there is one thought I find to be an intriguing one:

    The universe exists;
    We are alive;
    We are part of the universe;
    Therefore the universe is alive (at least in part).

    Having been living with this thought for many years, I’ve occasionally tried to take it a step further, purely as a mind exercise:

    If the universe is alive, at least in part, then what if there are many more parts?
    If there are many more parts, then how many more?
    If there are enough of these parts, could they possibly make a whole?
    And with a HUGE leap, could this whole be alive in a way we don’t understand?

    If so, could this intelligence be what those of faith somehow sense?

    There are a huge number of ifs there I know and I’m not saying they’re true, I’m just asking questions of myself.

    Never mind trying to bring logic and reason to ancient scripts, they were written with the then current beliefs in mind and this, in turn, limited the language they could use.

    Whilst we might think we know a lot about how they acted and thought, I suspect there is MUCH more we don’t know.

    But yet, I respect those names in sacred texts: Jusus, Mohammed, Budda, and many more. These were the thinkers of their day with the what? Charisma? Determination? to get their view of things heard? And usually these views held one core at their centre:

    Respect for others!

    Why can’t we all get along? I wish for world peace! Please support my nomination for Miss Universe next year, or whenever the next one is. Is it every year or is it more like the Olympics?
    I have read about some different philosophies and theologies years ago, and I think I already have read something like your idea too. It is not exactly the same thing, but there is an important theology called Pantheism that preaches that the entire existence is a single One God, and we are part of this One God since we are part of the whole Existence. (The ancient Stoics were Pantheists, by the way).

    Of course, some pantheists, especially modern pantheists, say that it is only about the physical part of the existence, but other pantheists, like those from eastern religions, say that actually our souls and even our minds are also parts of that single One thing (and this thing is the Pantheist One God).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

    Actually, many times I thought about focusing my philosophical studies on Pantheism, since it is an ancient and common theology in many societies (especially in eastern religions and folk traditional religions around the world).

    But I changed my mind, and I chose to study more about the Powers, because I think that potentialist philosophy seems to be more complex and easy, at the same time. Because the Pantheist God is the whole Existence, but it is impossible to our limited human mind trying to study and understand the complexity of the entire existence as a single One thing, obviously.

    Powers are also complex things, of course, and possibly there are an infinite numbers of Powers out there, but at least we can more easily divide those Powers and select only some of them to study and to apply in our daily life.

    And by the way, I also think that Powers are more practical and wide explanations than the Pantheist One God, because Powers are not only a good explanation inside Theology, they are also a good (and easy) explanation inside important Philosophical topics (metaphysics, epistemology and ethics, as I explained before). Even the more complete pantheistic philosophies, as Stoicism, are not so coherent to explain all these topics based on their All-God. At least this is my perception, based on my studies.

    Actually I can even think that both Potentialism and Pantheism can be valid and complementary theologies, but I still think that Potentialism is more wide, practical and easier to analyse and apply inside different topics. But if you have another thoughts about this, you can elaborate more in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    An interesting, albeit overly long opening read.

    Can you clarify the goal here? Is it

    to enable men to choose a way that will empower them personally and the world at large?
    to enable men to choose a way that will empower them personally and to hell with the world at large?
    or both?
    to find a 'winning' philosophy that all MGTOW should aspire to because (it is hoped) it is the best, again either for themselves or for the world at large? or both?
    something else?

    I feel this must be addressed before such a wide ranging undertaking, otherwise we end up in endless waffle.

    Yes we can talk about power. It is very interesting. But to what end? And yes the different types of power, and the fact that we are rather limited in our language and understanding, is a major factor in the difficulty of settling the question.
    A man can pursue power.. Become rich, influential etc.. But at what cost?
    You can shun all of that.. at a cost.
    We might come back to each person deciding what power is and what kind of power he wants. Because we decide which cost/price we want to pay. Which is very MGTOW in essence.
    Interesting.
    Exact. Clarifying the goals is an important point. Many times I thought about this as well. But my conclusion is that there are different "levels" of philosophies with different "levels" of goals. (And this is not even a new idea actually).

    Potentialism can be classified as a "higher philosophy" (something like Stoicism, Skepticism, Buddhism), because it can be a wide explanation about how Reality and everything works, not only our current world and society. And Potentialist philosophy is also useful to explain about other "lower philosophies". Based on this idea, the Potentialist goal is also a higher and wider goal, since you can choose to reach any goal you wish (as long you can have Powers enough to reach such goal, this is the point). So the answer for your question could be any of the 3 (for themselves personally, for the world at large or both)

    After all, with Powers enough, you can choose your own higher goal. You could even think about becoming an Omnipotent God as your highest goal, but you should gather all the Powers to reach this goal. It is a valid goal, but since it seems to be an impossible goal to reach (exactly because you have not Powers enough), all you can do is choosing other easier goal, in which it is possible to gather the needed Powers to reach such goal. But in the end, all of this has to do with Powers.

    On the other hand, "lower philosophies" (as Socialism, Feminism, Transhumanism, Extinctionism, Conservatism, Primitivism, Libertarianism, Hedonism and so on) are more worldly philosophies, more focused on our human questions and current social goals. They dont give us a higher and metaphysical goal, or explanations about how the Universe works. Mgtow as an unified ideology is inside this group, but it is not so clear since it is not a centralized ideology (and actually because Mgtow is a very new philosophy too).

    But some Mgtows mix Mgtow philosophy with other lesser philosophies (as I said in that thread about Transhumanism), with their own major goals. For instance, as I said before, creating artificial wombs and fembots are goals that have Mgtow and Transhumanist ideologies mixed. On the other hand, learning survivalist skills and fighting against future hostile advanced technologies that could oppress our freedom are goals that have Mgtow and Primitivist/Luddite ideologies mixed.

    And this is the main point, as I said before in the Artificial Womb thread, we must analyze our current society and other common philosophies among Mgtows (Transhumanism, Primitivism, Extinctionism, Conservatism, Libertarianism, Hedonism and so on), and analyze which of them could be better mixed with Mgtow ideology, giving us more useful Powers, and then, giving the best goal to solve our main problems.

    And by the way, there are also our own "personal philosophies" that are our own personal goals and ideas. Personal philosophies are not organized philosophies, they are more based on our emotions and limited worldviews, and then we choose our personal goals based on our own wishes. For instance, trying to find another job because you want to get rich, or trying to buy another house in a more calm town, are personal goals based in our personal perceptions. Obviously, this is also important for Mgtows, since we are focused on going our own way.
    Last edited by Latinus; May 17, 2021 at 11:05 PM.
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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Interesting.

    May I ask has this been from a personal interest perspective, a scientific analysis perspective, a bit of both, maybe neither?

    If you’ve managed to put together any statistics I’d be very interested.
    Unhappily I have no Statistics. Because it is not a quantitative scientific research exactly. I just look for different opinions and ideas (as I am doing in this thread) from different men (not only Mgtows by the way), so I research more information and articles about similar ideas, and then I analyze which of those philosophies could be better mixed with Mgtow ideas in different situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Nomad View Post
    Power of knowing that nothing matters is the root of nihilism.

    And with the void that nihilism creates you can actually choose what your life as you see fit. Stoic? Religious? Atheist? Just enjoying life? All possibilities. The power to do as you see fit with your limited time on earth is probably the main focus of GYOW.
    Good to mention about this.

    Because actually Nihilism is another philosophy that I have read about for a long time, and it is common among many Mgtows. Before creating this thread, I was not sure if I should start writing about Potentialism or about Nihilism, actually. I chose Potentialism, because it looks a more optimist philosophy, and because Potentalism is not so popular among Mgtows as Nihilism is, then I chose to bring a new philosophy for Mgtows.

    But I can write something more about Nihilism later. For instance, I have read that there are two main types of Nihilism. One of them is the Existentialist Nihilism, more common in our Western Society, and it is something like that you told about: when nothing matters, you are more free to create and choose your own meaning of life. The best known Existentialist Nihilist philosopher was Nietzsche, of course.

    And there is the Dharmic Nihilism, more common in Eastern religions, especially Buddhism, that see Nothingness as divine and our highest goal (Nirvana), and see all Existences as just a circular prison full of suffering and illusions. Then, the main goal is escape the cycle of existences and reincarnations, and reach the Nothingness and our Non-Self (Anatta).

    There are many more things about Nihilist philosophies, of course, but I will need more time to write more about it.
    .

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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Quote Originally Posted by Latinus View Post
    but there is an important theology called Pantheism that preaches that the entire existence is a single One God, and we are part of this One God since we are part of the whole Existence.
    Pantheism is the belief that reality is identical with divinity,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

    Sounds intriguing.

    I’ve never heard the term. Thank you for introducing it to me. I’m sure there’s more to it than this but I’ll look in to it.

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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Quote Originally Posted by Latinus View Post
    Unhappily I have no Statistics. Because it is not a quantitative scientific research exactly. I just look for different opinions and ideas
    I understand. It's a personal quest not subject to analysis. You seek understanding - go for it bro!

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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Latinus

    I am glad you chose Potentialism over Nihilism. I do not see how anything wise or good can be compatible with the latter. Nihilism is the refuge of the lost, the fearful and the ignorant.
    I would look forward to reading more about Potentialism.

    I have reached the point where I no longer need philosophies. I have reached the place beyond philosophy, to paraphrase the Tao Te Ching.
    But I do not criticise the seeker. The search is necessary.
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    Take the established 'truth' as far as society is concerned and go 180 degrees from that... there you will find the truth. Society is ass-backwards and your job is undoing all that BS you were programmed with your entire life.
    When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing. They then become capable of believing in anything.


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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    Latinus

    I am glad you chose Potentialism over Nihilism. I do not see how anything wise or good can be compatible with the latter.
    You’re probably right, especially when it comes to groups.

    But on an individual level I have to agree with Azure Nomad.

    Once you get past the depressing notion that life is ultimately meaningless there comes an understanding that this meaninglessness leaves you free to make your own rules for life, a notion not uncommon amongst MGTOW. (The making our own rules bit)

    Nihilism is the refuge of the lost, the fearful and the ignorant.
    Not so. It takes strength of character to look the universe in the face and accept what it has to say.

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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Actually there is not only one Nihilist philosophy, as I said before. We can say that "pure Nihilism", the first level that you enter, is really a pessimist philosophy. But then you can build your own meaning of life when you accept the idea that nothing really matters, and this is what Existentialist Nihilists preach.

    In another level more religious, like in Buddhism, some nihilist worldviews become even a spiritual Awakening. And it can make sense too, since loss, fear and ignorance actually come from Existence, not from Nothingness. If you dont exist, you are safe from loss, fear, ignorance and everything else that brings suffering and illusions. Nothingness is a kind of supreme Peace in this kind of Nihilism.

    But anyway, the most important reason that made me talk about philosophy actually is because of the news that I have read in the last years. I have read not only about Philosophies but also many things about Technologies. And many of these news make me think about our future.

    It is not only about Artificial Wombs and Fembots. There are many new technologies like genetical engineering, artificial intelligence, nootropics, bionics, mind uploading, new weapons of mass destruction (including genetical and climatical weapons), microchips implants, complex monitoring systems, space colonization and other weird technologies like that.

    And reading about these news I started to think which kind of technologies could be good or bad for us. Maybe it is relative, since it depends on many points. And this is why I also started studying about Potentialism, because some of those new technologies can give us more Powers to be free, but others of those technologies will give more Powers for evil people to oppress us.

    So maybe our problems in a near future will not be only the social, natural and/or spiritual problems that we already have since Stone Age, but also technological. Some new and big problems. At least this is what I realize when I read those news. (And guys like Elon Musk, Bill Gates and Stephen Hawking also really said about those problems).

    https://internationalbanker.com/tech...rintelligence/

    So I started to search for a philosophy that could explain these things and how to deal with it all when the shit hit the fan. Many desperate persons will look for religions when read about this and pray for some god to save us and so on (at least this is what most brazilians will do, most of us are not so philosophers in this country). Maybe we can really search for spiritual and divine Powers if they can help us, but we need better explanations that make more sense to solve some problems.

    Really, organized philosophies are not necessarily needed in our daily life, but some times we need some organized and valid Reference Points to decide and reach our goals, to solve our problems, to analyze what is true or false and to judge what is the right or wrong thing to do.

    And this is why I started to study about philosophies and think that Powers are good Reference Points to all these things. And some Powers will be really useful if we have to deal with artificial intelligences and hostile machines some day.

    But about all these problems related to Technologies I will write more in another thread.

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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Nothingness in Buddhism, is not the same as in Nihilism. I am sorry but people believing this have been conned. In Buddhism it is more about nothingness as a means to accept your insignificance and vanquish your ego. Buddhism is very spiritual in nature, caring for others, karma - etc. You could not say that Buddhism preaches that nothing matters. Nihilism has no need for kindness, because nothing matters.

    In Nihilism anything can be justified because 'nothing matters'. Any behaviour, any technological advance however dangerous and unnecessary. I want nothing to do with such people. You do not want to hear what I think about them. A world where nothing matters is basically Hell, created by those people.

    I would honestly question the sanity of people who think there is nothing greater than ourselves. That everything we are and have been, is a (mathematically impossible) accident.

    So maybe our problems in a near future will not be only the social, natural and/or spiritual problems that we already have since Stone Age, but also technological. Some new and big problems. At least this is what I realize when I read those news. (And guys like Elon Musk, Bill Gates and Stephen Hawking also really said about those problems).
    There are no technological problems, beyond that which people like the above create to divide and enslave, enriching themselves in the process. The only problem facing mankind is the spiritual one.

    The only way that evil will be overcome is if enough people decide to do enough good. And for that, we must believe that some things matter.

    Not so. It takes strength of character to look the universe in the face and accept what it has to say.


    A Nihilist would not think the universe has anything to say. Nihilism is cowardice and arrogance.

    Alpha male with a warrior spirit.
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    When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing. They then become capable of believing in anything.


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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    Nothingness in Buddhism, is not the same as in Nihilism. I am sorry but people believing this have been conned. In Buddhism it is more about nothingness as a means to accept your insignificance and vanquish your ego. Buddhism is very spiritual in nature, caring for others, karma - etc. You could not say that Buddhism preaches that nothing matters. Nihilism has no need for kindness, because nothing matters.

    In Nihilism anything can be justified because 'nothing matters'. Any behaviour, any technological advance however dangerous and unnecessary. I want nothing to do with such people. You do not want to hear what I think about them. A world where nothing matters is basically Hell, created by those people.

    I would honestly question the sanity of people who think there is nothing greater than ourselves. That everything we are and have been, is a (mathematically impossible) accident.


    There are no technological problems, beyond that which people like the above create to divide and enslave, enriching themselves in the process. The only problem facing mankind is the spiritual one.

    The only way that evil will be overcome is if enough people decide to do enough good. And for that, we must believe that some things matter.


    A Nihilist would not think the universe has anything to say. Nihilism is cowardice and arrogance.[/COLOR][/INDENT]

    [/COLOR]
    And this is right. Nothingness in Buddhism is not the same as in Nihilism, but actually Nothingness in some Buddhist denominations is not the same as in other Buddhist denominations. Some philosophical schools are more nihilist than others inside Buddhism.

    They dont say really "nothing matters" but only "nothingness matters". It is not the same thing actually, but the meaning vary according to each philosophy.

    And about our main problem, there are many discussions about this topic too. Some really says it is mainly a spiritual problem, others that is (or it will be) a technological problem. Some say that our main problem are actually humans and society and then support Anarchy or even human extinction as a solution. And many more just keep skeptical about a definitive answer. But I will look for more opinions.

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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Nomad View Post
    Power of knowing that nothing matters is the root of nihilism.

    And with the void that nihilism creates you can actually choose what your life as you see fit. Stoic? Religious? Atheist? Just enjoying life? All possibilities. The power to do as you see fit with your limited time on earth is probably the main focus of GYOW.
    Hope my two pence might add some value to the conversation . The way I see it though, it seems that because nihilism tends to be antithetical to most societal values, it gets a bad reputation ;a converse view might be that sometimes that's the only means to create new meaning. From the rubbles of past civilisation towers the edifice of our present zeitgeist.

    I don't think anyone can really argue with the far reaching conclusions of the entropic nature of existence;entropy always wins.It does not mean that the nihilist has abdicated their grasp of certain values that inherently would constrain their ability to fulfill whichever values they have come to regard as paramount in comparison to the values of the great majority.


    I think the thing is most times we humans are an enigma even to our own selves as we tend to cloud our motives with whatever cloak seems most likely to be on par with our current tangent.


    While I think the nihilism of Buddhism is more robust and maybe even positive in scope, I don't think dismissing the other Neitzschean variety as inherently without value, based on the distasteful emotions it elicits, does our discussion much good.I think nihilism stems from a rejection of a particular way of being, which is sort of mgtowish in my opinion, but truth is, no matter how much we try to deceive ourselves about how meaningless existence seems, there are still constraints that necessitates we live as though it has meaning.


    The need to feed is a good example . You could pursue that goal in diverse ways but eventually you still come to the inevitable conclusion that certain aspects of life are universal, and hence, they are either meaningful or meaningless, the later I think, is a hill no sane person can traverse.There certainly are constraints that guide our activities towards our goals and the consequences of choosing to concur or otherwise cannot be simply ignored. But to the main point of everyone choosing to create their meaning, I think that is something we can all get behind . But by the nature of embodiment we are thereby constrained t behave in certain ways and not to do the inverseto continue to maintain our existence, its like one existentialist said, "the only philosophical question is to either commit suicide or not". In the end by virtue of choosing to live, you have decided that life is meaningful, if only by admitting the difficulty of ending one's own existence.


    Cheers

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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    The need to feed is a good example . You could pursue that goal in diverse ways but eventually you still come to the inevitable conclusion that certain aspects of life are universal, and hence, they are either meaningful or meaningless, the later I think, is a hill no sane person can traverse.There certainly are constraints that guide our activities towards our goals and the consequences of choosing to concur or otherwise cannot be simply ignored. But to the main point of everyone choosing to create their meaning, I think that is something we can all get behind . But by the nature of embodiment we are thereby constrained t behave in certain ways and not to do the inverseto continue to maintain our existence, its like one existentialist said, "the only philosophical question is to either commit suicide or not". In the end by virtue of choosing to live, you have decided that life is meaningful, if only by admitting the difficulty of ending one's own existence.
    Exactly. By not ending your life, you admit it's worth living. Hence, this is for some reason. Just because they haven't found it, doesn't mean it does not exist.
    I will be less harsh and say that nihilism should be a phase at most. I think many of us have been there, it can follow that point where you realise so much of what we learned is a joke, or you have been badly hurt.
    It is a reaction to pain.
    I suppose in this way nihilism can be useful to deny the many lies in society, for example. Or when deciding not to give a shit about anything but yourself, maybe after a devastating divorce - this can help you for a time.
    But I think a nihilist needs to be honest and admit that his nihilism is born of pain, and once that pain is eased he will not 'need' nihilism.
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    When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing. They then become capable of believing in anything.


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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Nihilism is a subject that the young should avoid because they should have structure and purpose in life. But when you grow older you can see the value of nihilism because you are being honest about the universe.

    Our sun will die at some point and the last red dwarf will not shine anymore.

    To us our minds can not comprehend this, so we say that isn't meaningful to us. To a degree that is true as we should focus on meaning here and now. Right now we are the light that shines bright in a moment of time. That is a blessing indeed but we can't forget about those that came before us that their light shines no more and blends into the darkness.

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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    I would honestly question the sanity of people who think there is nothing greater than ourselves. That everything we are and have been, is a (mathematically impossible) accident.
    This is unfortunately a common misconception about atheists. It is not that we believe that “there is nothing greater than ourselves” as you put it. When we say we don’t believe in a deity it doesn’t mean that we believe there isn’t one. To believe this would require evidence. We are seekers of truth, and truth requires evidence.

    For example, I don’t believe that extra-terrestrial intelligent lifeforms walk the earth. This does not preclude them from being here it’s just I require tangible proof before making this determination.

    Anyone that claims there definitely is no such thing as a God or deity I would assume they are in the early days atheism and so go on an anti-religious crusade, possibly something akin to red pill rage.

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    A Nihilist would not think the universe has anything to say. Nihilism is cowardice and arrogance.
    I do not consider myself a Nihilist, in fact I know very little about it, but I admit I do have some Nihilistic tendencies. Why? Well, when I look at the universe it tells me that sooner or later the human race will likely cease to exist, not only in its present form but in all forms and, with it, all we have accomplished will be gone forever. Our existence here will be gone without so much as a single piece of evidence that we were ever here in the first place.

    Add to this my lack of belief in any form of an afterlife and the result is the notion that ultimately life is meaningless.

    I agree that this can be a dangerous worldview but it doesn’t mean that nothing we do matters. There are always actions and consequences to consider. Whilst religion can be a useful tool against total anarchy, it is not the only tool in the box. We also have a system of laws that exist outside of theology, although many may be influenced by it.

    If we are free to do whatever we like then some will obviously use that to justify the most appalling of actions, but others will choose to stand against them. This is the way it has been for thousands of years, possibly since the beginnings of humanity and we didn’t need Nihilism for it to unfold.

    I doubt there is an overabundance of Nihilists and atheists in our jail cells. I’ve no evidence for this, just a hunch.

    To call Nihilists cowardly and arrogant is quite frankly misguided, although you are entitled to your opinion.

    There is nothing cowardly about questioning the narrative, hell we do it here all the time and call it the red pill.

    As for arrogance, there is nothing presumptuous about Nihilism or atheism, quite the opposite, nor is there any notion of superiority, it is merely the exploration of human nature. An exploration that yields results that you seem to find repulsive.

    Arrogance:

    : an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions.
    Here’s a link to an article you may find interesting:

    Explainer: Nietzsche, nihilism and reasons to be cheerful

    From the link

    Understandably, these ideas are unsettling: few of us have the courage to confront the possibility our idols may be hollow and life has no inherent meaning.
    Last edited by Jackoff; May 19, 2021 at 3:16 PM.

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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    The truly awake person knows that anything pushed by the authorities, inc. the media, is immediately suspect. It is them who want us to believe we came from nothing, or, dust. They teach us this in school and propagate these ideas our whole lives. According to their theory then, everything is inherently meaningless. While them supporting this idea is not evidence the opposite is true per se, an awake person should be suspicious straight away because their power depends on deceiving us.
    It has even been said by very influential people, the 'program' as it were of indoctrination will be complete when the general public believes in complete lies.
    Knowledge is power. If you want to have power over another group, you have to hoard the knowledge (truth) to yourself and withold it from the others. Giving them false knowledge is a great way to achieve this.
    Anyway, that's just an aside.
    I think you may have misunderstood me. I was specifically talking about nihilists, not atheists. While a person can be both, the two terms are different.
    When we say we don’t believe in a deity it doesn’t mean that we believe there isn’t one. To believe this would require evidence. We are seekers of truth, and truth requires evidence.
    You have to be more clear about what you think. It seems to me you're agnostic, you think there could be a God but it can't be proven. Or an atheist until you see proof. But if the latter a smart person would know that proof is unlikely.
    Proof and evidence is funny. I bet you believe in many things because of proof and evidence. But when you look at them closely they are not proof or evidence at all, but theory and assumption. Again, mostly controlled by the ruling class.
    Gravity for example. Most people believe in it, yet there's never been any proof of it. It could well be electromagnetism that keeps us stuck to the earth, not the theory of large things attracting smaller ones (?!)
    Scientifically speaking we can only 'prove' that which we can demonstrate beyond all or most doubt.
    There is nothing cowardly about questioning the narrative, hell we do it here all the time and call it the red pill.
    You must know by now that I am not a person who is against questioning the narrative. I have a visceral, knee-jerk reaction to anything I am told, because my senses and experience tell me either the teller has an agenda, or they are wrong. This is the scientific mind, which keeps us looking for truth.
    Nihilism is not the exploration of human nature. As I said in a post above, it is/should be a step in the evolution of your mind. I experienced most nihilistic thought after the red pill rage, a time at which I was also decidedly existentialist. What I mean is, if you stay here, you are stuck.
    You don't seem like a nihilist. I guess the distinction we need to make here are what I call nihilists, and simply having some nihilistic tendencies, which we all have. Likely we all have tendencies of all different kinds of philosophies, myself I could say I have stoic, daoist, christian, etc..
    Alpha male with a warrior spirit.
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    Take the established 'truth' as far as society is concerned and go 180 degrees from that... there you will find the truth. Society is ass-backwards and your job is undoing all that BS you were programmed with your entire life.
    When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing. They then become capable of believing in anything.


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    Re: New Religions and Philosophies among Mgtows

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    The truly awake person knows that anything pushed by the authorities, inc. the media, is immediately suspect. It is them who want us to believe we came from nothing, or, dust. They teach us this in school and propagate these ideas our whole lives. According to their theory then, everything is inherently meaningless. While them supporting this idea is not evidence the opposite is true per se, an awake person should be suspicious straight away because their power depends on deceiving us.
    It has even been said by very influential people, the 'program' as it were of indoctrination will be complete when the general public believes in complete lies.
    Knowledge is power. If you want to have power over another group, you have to hoard the knowledge (truth) to yourself and withold it from the others. Giving them false knowledge is a great way to achieve this.
    Anyway, that's just an aside.
    I think you may have misunderstood me. I was specifically talking about nihilists, not atheists. While a person can be both, the two terms are different.

    You have to be more clear about what you think. It seems to me you're agnostic, you think there could be a God but it can't be proven. Or an atheist until you see proof. But if the latter a smart person would know that proof is unlikely.
    Proof and evidence is funny. I bet you believe in many things because of proof and evidence. But when you look at them closely they are not proof or evidence at all, but theory and assumption. Again, mostly controlled by the ruling class.
    Gravity for example. Most people believe in it, yet there's never been any proof of it. It could well be electromagnetism that keeps us stuck to the earth, not the theory of large things attracting smaller ones (?!)
    Scientifically speaking we can only 'prove' that which we can demonstrate beyond all or most doubt.

    You must know by now that I am not a person who is against questioning the narrative. I have a visceral, knee-jerk reaction to anything I am told, because my senses and experience tell me either the teller has an agenda, or they are wrong. This is the scientific mind, which keeps us looking for truth.
    Nihilism is not the exploration of human nature. As I said in a post above, it is/should be a step in the evolution of your mind. I experienced most nihilistic thought after the red pill rage, a time at which I was also decidedly existentialist. What I mean is, if you stay here, you are stuck.
    You don't seem like a nihilist. I guess the distinction we need to make here are what I call nihilists, and simply having some nihilistic tendencies, which we all have. Likely we all have tendencies of all different kinds of philosophies, myself I could say I have stoic, daoist, christian, etc..
    Agnostic or Atheist? A difficult question to answer truthfully as there is so much overlap and admittedly I sometimes use the terms almost synonymously.

    To me, an agnostic is similar to an atheist but with the fundamental difference that the agnostic believes the question is imponderable and so doesn’t bother. His mind is made up that he cannot make up his mind. The atheist on the other hand makes the determination that he doesn’t have enough evidence yet to support the notion of a deity and so refuses to accept (hence the "I don't believe" stance), but is open to debate. It is not a belief as such, it's more a lack of belief.

    The confusion arises because, as you rightly point out, proof is unlikely.

    I understand this may not be any standard definition, it is merely my view.

    As for what I believe, I think maybe believe is the wrong word. Maybe accept would be better as this allows for a change of stance should new evidence become available.

    As for your example of gravity, yes I accept it exists. This is easy to demonstrate. As for what it is and what causes it I have absolutely no idea except that it has been shown its effects are directly proportional to mass. How this effect is propagated however has baffled scientists for years. I doubt it’s electromagnetic in nature as this would probably have been detected by now, but I do take your point.


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