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Thread: Paradoxes

  1. #1
    Senior Member Manfred's Avatar
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    Paradoxes

    For a long time used to listen to a Zen master saying that life is paradox, that hewas constantly contradicting himself. It was funny that I could not see the contradictions…


    Sorry for this long rant, but I need to get it out of my chest. Of late I have been listening to this youtube channel called Better Bachelor. Yet today there was a video that – to me – probably killed it.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WjR8tKcyZ8


    Looking at the comments you can find all sorts of opinions, and THEY ARE ALL TRUE!And that is strange because they contradict themselves. What was it about paradox…?


    First, let us look at the basic assumption that you must allow women (and some of thoseactually care about men...) in men’s forums. As we all know, women take over male spaces very rapidly.
    The presence of women alone changes the way men behave - and the above video is proof. There are strong instinctive traits in men that are triggered:the protection instinct, the reproduction instinct and the simping instinct.


    The problem wa shaving a female in the comments, and someone being rude. And you cannot be rude to a woman, because you will hurt their precious feelings and she might cry. But if someone was to reply to a man with a big “F YOU”, then would we have such video?


    Double standards?


    But if we are to believe that the gender of the “offended” had nothing to do with the response, as Joker says, then we have a second discussion: can people be rude to people?


    Let us look at it this way: most people do not change their mind with arguments, no matter how good and truthful they are. The internet has become a gigantic echo chamber, or rather: a babel tower of echo chambers.


    People naturally congregate with those that accept them, share their ideas and EMOTIONS. Add to this the algorithmic selection of exactly what you want to see...And we have the blueprint for the modern days biblical babel tower.


    People do not listen anymore to words. They classify each-other’s positions and praise or attack accordingly. The more considerate will do it with pseudo-arguments that will take you nowhere, they will ignore your good arguments and attack your bad.
    The less considered will simply call you names, shame you or try to have you banned.


    How considerate of the first to waste your time… If everybody was like the others, it would be a lot easy: you would not waste your time.


    So, I would say that an occasional F U does save you a lot of time and is appropriate depending on the other.


    Because the core of the matter is that WE ARE WASTING OUR TIME! Never a conflict was solved by being right, because everybody thinks THEY are right. A conflict is solved by one winning by force or the other giving up.


    Galilee was right, but he had to say otherwise or he would end up like Giordano Bruno, that was burned at the stake.




    We have to understand that our written communication has changed. People used to write books or articles. Then they would get responses in the form of books and articles. But writing this way is a lot of work,thus one needs to have really good reasons to go through all that work and waste all that time. Besides, one could not simply publish whatever he wanted, he had to establish a name for himself in order to be published…


    Now everybody has a voice with little work, instantly, anonymously and without consequences. The tsunami of opinions, ideas and insults that invaded our world has some side effects. We live in the time of BIG DATA, nobody can be expected to ponder about what they read, because there is A LOT to read. And most of it is garbage.


    So,today we mostly read enough to classify, discard or endorse one point of view. The internet is the fast-food chain for the brain, but instead of a McDonald's like menu you have millions of variations of shit-burgers to sort out before finding any meat.


    MGTOW has the best approach to this situation: turn your back to it and go your own way. It is useless to discuss with those that will never see any point. So, even if appropriate sometimes,it is also a waste of time to send a F U to people.


    So now we enter the 3’rd question: why would people discuss Red Pill content? Notice that I am not asking why people PRESENT Red Pill content, I am asking about public discussion of these issues in a society that would burn you at the stake for it if they could.


    I know many MGTOW forums that killed themselves through discussion. And that is red pill men talking with red pill men.When you throw blue pills, women, SJW and tradcons at the fray, then what constructive result can we expect?


    Relating to this question comes question number 4: why would we want mainstream attention to MGTOW? The value we attribute to something comes from its rarity. What is free and abundant is disregarded, and what is obscure and hard to get is attractive. Getting MGTOW into the mainstream has the secondary effect of MGTOW losing itself, no longer being original. Because you get people applying socially accepted concepts to MGTOW, to get it to be… socially accepted.


    And thus we get channels like Joker’s, that tries to survive in censorship central by changing half the words of each sentence. Is it surprising that he tries to keep the discussion panel “clean”?The ax is already over his head, regardless of the cleanliness. I think the censors are enjoying to see him squirming around with words like a performance monkey dancing for peanuts.


    And that is where it all end up with: people making their sustenance with MGTOW channels. How was it that Big John said? Putting their livelihood in the hands of fickle something…Some Biblical saying that was great….


    But how can I criticize him if I like to ear his stuff? Paradox again.


    What can we do against the censorship of society? Let us think of it this way, if you try to change an animal, will he accept it lightly or would he fight you?


    And what are we willing to sacrifice for changing society? Isn't this the least MGTOW thing we could do? Are we to harm our personal lives for the good of a future society? To make it better for OTHER men?


    Isn't it easy to fall into the same instinctive traps we try to escape from? Again trying to sacrifice ourselves for others, as our value would derive from it and not from our own success at having a good life.


    MEN GOING THEIR OWN WAY.


    Not MEN GOING TO CHANGE SOCIETY. That would be with the MRA, and those guys get F’d by society as a reward for their efforts.

    So, yea, Joker has stepped down from his high horse of indifference and stepped into the shit. He could simply let it be, but he reacted, and now that people know he reacts they will push all his buttons and crash down the channel.

    MGTOW ghost lesson of the day: never engage them, women or the public.

    At most - if you like to live dangerously - they are the spectators of your life. But is best to keep to yourself how good you have it... For obvious reasons.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Opaque's Avatar
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    Re: Paradoxes

    Manfred, first of all thank you for an engaging and insightful post.

    I would like to reply to some of the things you have raised in this most wonderful post!

    With regards to life being a paradox, it certainly is! I am only 30 years old, but I can safely say that life (at least in the modern, mechanised, technised western world) is rather more absurd than anything. And furthermore, any attempt at "sense making" is futile. Not because it is wrong or not useful, it certainly is; but you do not get ahead in life by being objective! At least not in this current epoch.

    Women are far superior to men in this regards, they understand that life is a paradox, and are far far far better at dealing with this "mode of existence" compared to men who childishly cling on "sense making".

    Let us look at it this way: most people do not change their mind with arguments, no matter how good and truthful they are. The internet has become a gigantic echo chamber, or rather: a babel tower of echo chambers.
    The fact of the matter is, and I think many MGTOW shall deride me for saying this, is that (to a certain extent at least) this is also true of MGTOW; even this forum. To some extent, we need to vent here, and indulging in prejudices and unverifiable ideas is healthy in small doses.

    For example, there was a woman who posted in the opposing views section a long while ago "what if your (the members on this forum) daughters were raped!!???". I think she meant, why the hostility towards women? Wouldn't you care if your daughter or mother was mistreated by a man, any man?

    To a certain extent, she is asking a reasonable question, but her intent is pernicious. She is seeking to manipulate the protective instinct in men so that we see her side of the story.

    But even if her side of the story is true, we should (for reasons of expediency) shut our ears and eyes to her questions. We should (again as a matter of expediency) only and solely care about the suffering of men and the future of men.

    So, when a woman like that speaks with me, the first thing I do is ask her:

    "Have you warned your son of female manipulation?"
    "Have you raised your daughter to be honest and not use men as a disposable utility?"
    "Are you currently, actively engaged in overturning the biased sexual harassment and rape laws?"

    If she does not answer YES to all three questions, then I IMMEDIATELY SUSPENSE ALL DIALOGUE WITH HER. If, I am in a position where this is not possible, such as with my female manager at work, then I just play dumb and manipulate her to get what I want.

    People do not listen anymore to words. They classify each-other’s positions and praise or attack accordingly. The more considerate will do it with pseudo-arguments that will take you nowhere, they will ignore your good arguments and attack your bad.
    This is a shame, I would say this phenomenon makes me sad and despondent. But, as mentioned earlier, to a certain extent, we MGTOW need to become cliquish in this sense as well, because everyone else is playing by these rules.

    On this forum, we can be honest and forthright with each other, but in the gynocentric world out there, we employ tools of expediency. My advice is, DO NOT TRY TO BE RATIONAL WITH THE IRRATIONAL, JUST MANIPULATE THEM TO GET WHAT YOU WANT.

    This means that language and words are dead, useless. This is true and MGTOW need to understand this! Objectivity is dead, science is dead, language is dead.

    I do not mean it in the sense of doing some experiment to find out the structure of a benzene molecule, I mean in the sense that they are no longer good tools to getting goodies from the gynocracy.

    So now we enter the 3’rd question: why would people discuss Red Pill content? Notice that I am not asking why people PRESENT Red Pill content, I am asking about public discussion of these issues in a society that would burn you at the stake for it if they could.
    I am not sure about "red pill" content, but I know that discussion about MGTOW help me clarify, strengthen or discard certain viewpoints about women and the gynocracy in general.

    For example, many men think that women are inferior when it comes to matters of science and engineering. I realised, that regardless of whether this is true or not, some men of the MGTOW persuasion, only mention this because they have heard it from others and to "make themselves feel better about themselves".

    Meanwhile, women don't actually care. Some women are moving ahead becoming engineers, others are shaking their ass on instagram and getting handsomely paid for it.

    Meanwhile, the man who holds these views is probably penniless and has no future.

    Rinse and repeat, the cycle continues and the gynocracy is "winning" day by day. Yet, the man who thinks women can't be engineers is patting him-self on the back for his "insights". And a bonafide MGTOW like me is sitting here and thinking "these men are idiots".

    Relating to this question comes question number 4: why would we want mainstream attention to MGTOW? The value we attribute to something comes from its rarity. What is free and abundant is disregarded, and what is obscure and hard to get is attractive. Getting MGTOW into the mainstream has the secondary effect of MGTOW losing itself, no longer being original. Because you get people applying socially accepted concepts to MGTOW, to get it to be… socially accepted.
    We do not, no way! MGTOW should be kept as quite as possible, I don't even try to red pill my own brother. I will throw a few red pills here and there, but if they actively protest against it, then I say let gynocracy gobble them up. Besides, we need good little blue pill slaves to throw their lives away as cannon fodder. It makes my life a whole lot easier!

    One thing I will mention lastly, regarding "truth". MGTOW is true for the MGTOW, and we should be extremely careful of anyone who tries to reinterpret concepts so that they could fit the modern world. The foundational concepts of MGTOW should be refined from time to time, critically assessed; but not to the point where anyone can say anything and it is considered MGTOW.

    I like to take a lesson from history. The Catholic Church had a monopoly on TRUTH in the medieval world; regardless of how it achieved that.

    Then came the reformation, and with the reformation "TRUTH" became subjective. That means that anyone can read the bible and come to their own conclusions; which is absolutely fine and the reformation, in my opinion, was necessary. However, what ends up happening is that "TRUTH is put up on the marketplace of ideas" and when you do that, then any tom, dick and harry can come in and dilute the mentality.

    We do not want that to happen to MGTOW! If we put MGTOW up on the "marketplace of ideas" then it will for sure, be diluted, repackaged and resold for a cheaper price for the "consumption" of the average idiot!
    A mother cannot raise a boy to be a man, not because he needs a father figure; but because she favours team vagina over her own son.

    Tradcon women are the most manipulative of all kinds of women, because they infect you with false hope.
    Radfems are your best friend, because they hate you and verbalise it - that's honesty!

    The red pill rage is a process which takes many many years - so be kind and patient with yourself; you will overcome it!

  3. #3

    Re: Paradoxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred View Post

    First, let us look at the basic assumption that you must allow women (and some of thoseactually care about men...) in men’s forums. As we all know, women take over male spaces very rapidly.
    The presence of women alone changes the way men behave - and the above video is proof. There are strong instinctive traits in men that are triggered:the protection instinct, the reproduction instinct and the simping instinct.
    That would always get on my nerves when I was younger. There'd be a group of us guys hanging out and then a woman would want to be apart of the group. Every time the woman would have something to say, every guy would always listen to her like it was gospel. The group would always differ to her as if they're looking for her approval. Most times the woman would be decently attractive.

    Then you have a group of guys and there is this guy who is "kind of part of the group" but is there mostly to get fucked with.

    Paradoxes? You never see a woman part of a group but there to be the butt of all the jokes.
    In the future there will be robots.

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    Re: Paradoxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    On this forum, we can be honest and forthright with each other, but in the gynocentric world out there, we employ tools of expediency. My advice is, DO NOT TRY TO BE RATIONAL WITH THE IRRATIONAL, JUST MANIPULATE THEM TO GET WHAT YOU WANT.
    Not to disagree entirely, but just to put another perspective out there:

    Is this effective? Maybe in the short term at least if you become good at it, but the manipulation of others is one of the traits I despise in women. Why on earth would I want to become that which I despise? I get by quite well by being as straight as I can with others. By this I mean that sometimes I withhold the full extent of my views to in order to keep the peace or to prevent myself from being manipulated, but this not intended as a manipulation tactic, merely one of self-preservation or of showing respect for othersí views which are not my own in the knowledge that nothing I say will change their mind.

    Do I get punished for behaving in this way? Well, sometimes but not as often as you might think and more importantly my conscience is clear.

    Those that employ manipulation tactics are soon recognised for what they are; they will never be trusted or respected by anyone and live in a jaded world of Ďuse or be usedí. Yes there may be respect for your abilities, but this respect is born out of fear it is not respect for you as a person. True contentment cannot be found living your life this way, there is another way to live even in todayís world.

    There are many, many good and honest people out there, in fact in my experience they make up the vast majority however misguided they may seem Ė you know of whom I speak Ė the sheep; not everyone is out to get one over on you. Sometimes it may seem this way but that is only because theyíre the ones that make the most noise and cause the most disruption. Or maybe it has something to do with the area in which you live, this is at least a possibility.

    I have the respect and true friendship of MANY people even if they think my way of life to be a little odd. I know this to be true because they have come to my aid in times of need whether that was by giving me good advice or throwing bits of work to me when cash was short. We look out for each other. I pick my friends carefully these days. But even most of those I would term acquaintances have respect for me, if they didnít I wouldnít be long hearing about it.

    When one puts everyday practicalities before ethics and morality you end up thinking in terms of Ďthe end justifies the meansí. Where does it end? Taking this philosophy to its logical conclusion leads to shit like genocide happening.

    Or maybe there is a particular goal in mind, and once achieved one can then re-think things and change their behaviour accordingly. Is this not the behaviour of the thot that Ďsuddenlyí finds religion and then demands respectability? Respectability, like trust, must be earned, it cannot be demanded. Even if one can convince others that they have changed their ways their true colours will eventually out. Years of living in a particular mind-set cannot just be switched off.

    This all may sound a bit judgemental but believe me when I say that that is not the intent. I have zero concern for those that get beaten at their own game; I just prefer not to join them by playing by their rules.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

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    Senior Member Opaque's Avatar
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    Re: Paradoxes

    This all may sound a bit judgemental but believe me when I say that that is not the intent. I have zero concern for those that get beaten at their own game; I just prefer not to join them by playing by their rules.
    I understand what you are trying to say, and this is why I specified that for example, in the workplace, you cannot be honest and genuine, because people will take advantage.

    I am genuine, forthright and moral when it comes to people who I care about and causes that I invest my time and energy in, like this good forum and MGTOW.

    But you cannot deny that in some circumstances manipulation is warranted. And you and I called it "manipulation" but actually it is more like "wisdom", in one sense it is manipulative, in another sense it is just behaving appropriately in a the world outside.

    I despise it myself and wish for a better world, but unfortunately I need to get the bills paid, I need to get my way in life and sometimes it requires being crafty in the way you use words, in the way you deal with people etc etc.

    Allow me to re-iterate, I am not happy about this, but in some instances, there is simply no alternative.
    A mother cannot raise a boy to be a man, not because he needs a father figure; but because she favours team vagina over her own son.

    Tradcon women are the most manipulative of all kinds of women, because they infect you with false hope.
    Radfems are your best friend, because they hate you and verbalise it - that's honesty!

    The red pill rage is a process which takes many many years - so be kind and patient with yourself; you will overcome it!

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    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Paradoxes

    The ability to navigate a paradox is in deconstructing its construct, understanding how it ticks, what makes it tick. The algorithms of any paradox are an enigma at first, then a symphony of understanding and comprehension that slowly seeps in like dawn comes second. When you figure out the construct of any paradox, it's wise and prudent to use it to your utter and endless absolute full advantage! To so anything else is kin to earning a diploma then choosing to be a homeless panhandling bum instead. When you do achieve understanding of any given paradox, you'll find yourself standing alone, and that, I believe, is the essence of MGTOW, the things we see, understand, and take measures accordingly.

    This geocentric paradox of western society and its morphed culture has been skinned alive and seared by the annex MGTOW within the mansphere, and it's why we get so much rejection and basically stand alone. We're like a pure unintended extract that formed in the cauldron of feminism and cannot be dissolved nor simply go away, add to that how much they turned up the heat on men and masculinity only recently, we can expect more of the same chemical reaction and more of the same thing, even those that built up immunity and tolerance to feminism will soon be joining our ranks.

    They know it as "the man strike", "where are all the good men", "the death of marriage", "plummeting birth rates", we know it as "change", changes", "changing.

    To deny these dastardly social backhands and fail to take measures necessary, you're a worker and investor in your own demise!


    Life is full of pearls of wisdom and gold nuggets of understanding, you just have to mine for them from the mountains of deception and ignorance.

    All we offer is a pick and shovel, it's up to the man that wants to dig for it, to do all the work. As long time MGTOW we had nobody to show us where the oar seam was located and how deep in goes in the ground. Armed with that information makes all the difference between boom or bust! It's no longer a paradox, its all boiled down to a matter of choice, red pill, blue pill, that's the choice we're left to choose from in a room without options.
    Are the laws and order within your society a bit unreasonable, counterproductive, and even hazardous? That's the mark of feminism diligently at work in your society. Need relief? MGTOW is the only ejection seat available to men facing this live systematic crash and burn scenario.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Manfred's Avatar
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    Re: Paradoxes

    Thank you Opaque for your words. In another paradox, while I am talking about how it is useless to discuss online, we get a great discussion online. But that apparent paradox is just the effect of dualistic thinking; black or white, yes or no, all or nothing.


    In truth, like Mgtower says, one has to deconstruct the machine to see how it operates. When we operate through dualism, then everything ends in paradox, because dualism is not real. It is a simple framework to operate, but it is not real, only a synthesis of reality.


    We might say: it is useless to discuss online, or it is useful to discuss things online. Neither of them is TOTALLY true. In some cases it is useless,and others is useful. It is essentially circumstantial. But we like to have things defined (from the latin “finitus” that means “to end”) thus we think in absolutes, and only a sith deals in absolutes




    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    Iunderstand what you are trying to say, and this is why I specified that for example, in the workplace, you cannot be honest and genuine,because people will take advantage.


    I am genuine,forthright and moral when it comes to people who I care about and causes that I invest my time and energy in, like this good forum and MGTOW.


    But you cannot deny that in some circumstances manipulation is warranted. And you and I called it "manipulation" but actually it is more like"wisdom", in one sense it is manipulative, in another senseit is just behaving appropriately in a the world outside.


    I despise it myself and wish for a better world, but unfortunately I need to get the bills paid, I need to get my way in life and sometimes it requires being crafty in the way you use words, in the way you deal with people etc etc.


    Allow me tore-iterate, I am not happy about this, but in some instances, there is simply no alternative.

    I would like to chime in with some ideas about this issue, that I was about to address in my rant but avoided by it for being to long already.


    The discussion here is about values or morality. I have considered a lot about this, being a victim myself of my own values, leading to the exploration by others. I understand Jackoff, in the sense that I try to maintain my integrity, even if sometimes is for my disadvantage.


    But at a point I question if I am doing it by choice or conditioning. Because if we think things trough, we use a social morality/ethics, and not a natural one.


    I would say the natural morality is the intrinsic sense of justice, and it is seen also in animals:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg


    But anything else is a social construct, like in this case the idea of not manipulating others. I say this because obviously society would not work if everyone was to do it. It the words of Ester Villar, its value comes from rarity, thus society imposes these rules, and the ones that break them (women, politicians) have an advantage.


    But we feel bad about it because they collide with our natural morality, namely the sense of justice. It is like playing a game by the rules with people that do not follow the rules. We KNOW it is UNFAIR. The collision of these two moralities is the conflict.


    If we analyze arguing with females makes this is very clear. Men operate through the sense that they have to present their reasoning, and if it is a valid one then it must be accepted and they win. But women operate under the principle that they need to win the emotional side of the argument, and being right is only one way of doing this. Another of winning is being right in something, even if unrelated. Thus their primary resource is changing the subject to something that THEY are right, to feel that the are ALWAYS RIGHT.


    But we call this manipulation, and it is totally unfair. Like someone said: never play chess with a pigeon, he will flap his wings, drop your pieces, shit on the board and start cooing that he won. I don't know, I never played chess with a pigeon, only with a bully and his gang; they harassed me all the game, placed a snail on the board and the bully ended up winning...


    So, considering things through we might ask ourselves: what is the game being played? When someone is not operating by the rules, then the game is manipulation. If you dont want to play this game just leave, because otherwise you will lose.

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    Re: Paradoxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    I understand what you are trying to say, and this is why I specified that for example, in the workplace, you cannot be honest and genuine, because people will take advantage.

    I am genuine, forthright and moral when it comes to people who I care about and causes that I invest my time and energy in, like this good forum and MGTOW.

    But you cannot deny that in some circumstances manipulation is warranted. And you and I called it "manipulation" but actually it is more like "wisdom", in one sense it is manipulative, in another sense it is just behaving appropriately in a the world outside.

    I despise it myself and wish for a better world, but unfortunately I need to get the bills paid, I need to get my way in life and sometimes it requires being crafty in the way you use words, in the way you deal with people etc etc.

    Allow me to re-iterate, I am not happy about this, but in some instances, there is simply no alternative.
    Ah, I think slowly, dimly I begin to understand where you are coming from.

    We all wear masks. We all behave differently when we are with friends than we do when we are with family, and we also behave differently in the workplace amongst those we associate with but do not consider friends. This is perfectly normal and natural behaviour due to the different levels of trust and intimacy we feel for those around us.

    With family and friends we are free to tell them to go to hell and disassociate if things get too divisive, but not so in the workplace unless you are prepared to allow others to push you out of your position of employment. Therefore the only option is to fight back using whatever tactics you can.

    Duh.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

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    Re: Paradoxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred View Post
    The discussion here is about values or morality. I have considered a lot about this, being a victim myself of my own values, leading to the exploration by others. I understand Jackoff, in the sense that I try to maintain my integrity, even if sometimes is for my disadvantage.


    But at a point I question if I am doing it by choice or conditioning. Because if we think things trough, we use a social morality/ethics, and not a natural one.
    This is very interesting to me.

    When I swallowed the big red pill, you know the one not only about female nature but also about society in general, I choked on it big time. It devastated my understanding of the world and I attempted to rebuild that understanding from first principles: just what is truly important to me?

    And I began with the idiom “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” or however it is phrased, and to this day this is the basis of my morality and ethics.

    But…

    There’s always a ‘but’ isn’t there.

    It soon became obvious that I simply could not build on this without references to those things that I’d already observed. And those things were observed through a blue pill lens. Hard as I tried to disentangle the mess in front of me I had to admit one simple truth: complete dissociation from blue pill influence is impossible regardless of how much one ignores or understands the views of others. Those early years of indoctrination will continue to influence my thoughts and decisions for the rest of my life no matter how much thought I put in to it.

    At first this saddened, then it enraged me – the red pill rage – but eventually I accepted the truth of it. Leaving aside biological imperatives we are the sum of our experiences. Even after some 20 years I see those paradoxes you speak of almost daily not only in others but in myself also.

    And in a surprising way this gives me at least some comfort. When I look now at how society is developing (or devolving) I realise that overall it isn’t down to well thought out intent, but rather it’s down to the influence of those that are just as lost as I was then, even those that seem to be intelligent and educated (doctors, scientists etc.)

    None of us has all the answers, but here on this site we are at least asking the questions.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

  10. #10
    Senior Member Opaque's Avatar
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    Re: Paradoxes

    And in a surprising way this gives me at least some comfort. When I look now at how society is developing (or devolving) I realise that overall it isn’t down to well thought out intent, but rather it’s down to the influence of those that are just as lost as I was then, even those that seem to be intelligent and educated (doctors, scientists etc.)
    Mind elaborating on this?

    If for example we consider the following example:

    A boy is born, let's call him John. His mother is an average person, she is of average intelligence and went through tertiary education. She isn't perfect or extra-ordinary but healthy and well functioning individual.

    When John becomes a teenager, he begins showing sexual interest in women, but he soon begins to experience many disappointments. He keeps asking the girls out, and they refuse. He works on his body and develops his social skills, but not much luck either.

    He begins to work on his education and graduate with honours. He gets a high paying job, he has some limited success wit women, but still, more often than not, he is thrown out to the lions.

    He becomes sexually frustrated and angry at the way the world is, and the female/male relationship dynamic is skewed.

    Let us assume that since childhood, his mother (and father) had known of his difficulties with women.

    I can safely say this is a typical story for the average Joe, or John in this case.

    Why is it that his mother (and to a lesser extent) his father not forwarn him about female manipulation. All it takes is 15 minutes to sit the boy down, at any age (some may say 13 is too early, well how about 16, or 20, or heck even 30?), and tell him something along the lines of:

    - Women can sometime be manipulative.
    - Some women may pretend to be interested to get drinks and dinners.
    - Sometimes, a woman might tell you she is on the pill when she isn't.

    etc etc..

    This leads to me to conclude that actually the people in charge of the gynocracy are acting according to a plan. It probably isn't some plan where women, blue pillers, simps and white knights get together and make a detailed step by step map of how they plan to f*** men over, but something more along the line of unspoken rules.

    These unspoken rules vary slightly from culture to culture, from epoch to epoch, but remain the same more or less.

    For example,
    -"a man usually pays for dinner".
    -"the man chases, and the woman has the final decision"
    -"men work hard and provide, if they want to attract a woman"

    What they end up boiling down to is the notion "a man must toil, and a woman must benefit off of his toil".

    I have yet to see a culture, where women work, chase men, take risks and be responsible for all manner of social, political and economic issues.
    Last edited by Opaque; May 17, 2020 at 11:14 AM.
    A mother cannot raise a boy to be a man, not because he needs a father figure; but because she favours team vagina over her own son.

    Tradcon women are the most manipulative of all kinds of women, because they infect you with false hope.
    Radfems are your best friend, because they hate you and verbalise it - that's honesty!

    The red pill rage is a process which takes many many years - so be kind and patient with yourself; you will overcome it!

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    Re: Paradoxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    Mind elaborating on this?

    If for example we consider the following example:

    A boy is born, let's call him John. His mother is an average person, she is of average intelligence and went through tertiary education. She isn't perfect or extra-ordinary but healthy and well functioning individual.

    When John becomes a teenager, he begins showing sexual interest in women, but he soon begins to experience many disappointments. He keeps asking the girls out, and they refuse. He works on his body and develops his social skills, but not much luck either.

    He begins to work on his education and graduate with honours. He gets a high paying job, he has some limited success wit women, but still, more often than not, he is thrown out to the lions.

    He becomes sexually frustrated and angry at the way the world is, and the female/male relationship dynamic is skewed.

    Let us assume that since childhood, his mother (and father) had known of his difficulties with women.

    I can safely say this is a typical story for the average Joe, or John in this case.

    Why is it that his mother (and to a lesser extent) his father not forwarn him about female manipulation. All it takes is 15 minutes to sit the boy down, at any age (some may say 13 is too early, well how about 16, or 20, or heck even 30?), and tell him something along the lines of:

    - Women can sometime be manipulative.
    - Some women may pretend to be interested to get drinks and dinners.
    - Sometimes, a woman might tell you she is on the pill when she isn't.

    etc etc..

    This leads to me to conclude that actually the people in charge of the gynocracy are acting according to a plan. It probably isn't some plan where women, blue pillers, simps and white knights get together and make a detailed step by step map of how they plan to f*** men over, but something more along the line of unspoken rules.

    These unspoken rules vary slightly from culture to culture, from epoch to epoch, but remain the same more or less.

    For example,
    -"a man usually pays for dinner".
    -"the man chases, and the woman has the final decision"
    -"men work hard and provide, if they want to attract a woman"

    What they end up boiling down to is the notion "a man must toil, and a woman must benefit off of his toil".

    I have yet to see a culture, where women work, chase men, take risks and be responsible for all manner of social, political and economic issues.
    Iíll do the best I can, but to be honest itís all a bit fuzzy, thatís why it interests me.

    We all know what the gynocracy is and what it does, but this comes from the influencers, a tiny minority, and not the general populace. If you disagree with this, bear with me and Iíll try to explain.

    We refer to blue pillers as sheep, because thatís exactly what they are. They follow the shepherds, and itís these shepherds (politicians, MSM, SJWís etc.) that set the rules that others follow. But these people come and go. As you say itís not like they sit down and plan things out amongst each other, itís more that they have been influenced by their predecessors, feed off each other, and ďcarry on the bannerĒ as it were. These people are just as much victims of the situation as they are the cause because they are too stupid or too lazy to see the big picture. They are just as indoctrinated as the people they are trying to indoctrinate. Itís a vicious circle.

    There are those that maintain that women cannot be red pilled because they are the source of the problems we face today, but this is simply not true. The average woman is just as influenced as the average Joe by all the garbage that is being fed to us on a daily basis.

    The sheeple, both male and female simply go with the flow. The indoctrination that causes the male of the species so many problems applies equally to our womenfolk, maybe even more so because they see it is to their benefit so they adopt it more readily.

    Iíve said this before and Iíll say it again: most people, both male and female, are just trying to get on with their lives. The women that you see (and their mangina cohorts) out demonstrating, or even in more personal settings, espousing feminist ideology and using shame tactics to try to influence others are doing so because they have totally swallowed everything thatís being sold to them.

    However, if you get into a conversation with them and question why they believe the things they do they quickly run out of answers. The indoctrination is so complete they donít even question it. They simply get angry and cast aspersions.

    As for the average family: wife, husband & a couple of kids; why donít the parents inform their male children of the dangers?

    Well, itís partly because theyíre too confused about whatís going on to impart that information in a clear and precise manner. Start a conversation with a kid and theyíll keep asking questions until you end up more confused than you started.

    Parents are too busy taking care of the basics like paying the bills, putting food on the table, worrying about their employment status, arguing with each other, and taking time out to simply relax and enjoy themselves to relieve all the pressures of modern living. They are so concerned with the here and now they simply donít want to take the time to think things out properly Ė hence they go with the flow and become sheeple.

    The biggest problem with the family structure today, to my way of thinking, isnít that men are better than women or women are better than men, itís because no-one knows their place anymore. In the past the man went out to work and the woman took care of the home. Now Iím not for a second saying that this was or is right and proper, all Iím saying is that people knew their roles and brought up their kids accordingly and for the most part it worked.

    Enter todayís society:

    Women teach their sons and daughters that men are nothing but tools and should be used as such, but to be effective you have to control and manipulate them. But they donít do this by sitting their children down and explaining things to them, they do it through a sort of osmosis by setting the example (and throwing in the odd manipulative phrase or two like: a man should never hit a woman, and not: people shouldnít use violence). Why wouldnít women use men like this if they can? The whole notion of Ďselfí seems to be the imperative of the day which is re-enforced everywhere you look.

    But what of the fathers? Why donít they inform their sons of the dangers of interacting with women? Well, because theyíve been indoctrinated to just accept that thatís the way it is. Even if they do see whatís going on they simply canít tell their sons that they should behave in a certain way in order to protect themselves because to do so they would come across as total hypocrites:

    Father: Hey Johnny, come here son and Iíll tell you something about women and how to handle them.

    Son: But dad, if this is true why donít you act like this yourself?

    Father: Because no-one told me like Iím telling you and I wasnít smart enough to work it out before it was too late. (Remember, he sees what he sees but he hasnít taken the time out to think things through so he doesnít have a complete and rational answer.)

    Son: Too late? So, if you had known then you and mommy wouldnít be together and I wouldnít have been born? And anyway, if you were too stupid to see what was happening then, why should I believe that you are any cleverer now?

    Normally there is simply no incentive for a man to speak to his son in this way. All it serves to do is undermine him in the eyes of his son.

    Fathers, like mothers, do indeed impart information through osmosis, but itís the wrong message.

    Every time that dad submits to momís irrational demands for the sake of a bit of peace and quiet he teaches his son that this is the right and proper thing to do, that we, as men, are subservient to the whims of the female, that they are the ones in control and we are merely servants.

    Alternatively, the man does not give in. He stands his ground. The woman throws a fit (and everything else she can lay her hands on). The man retaliates and ends up in a cell. Again the boy sees this and determines that women are in control and we as men are merely servants.

    Sad, but true.


    Being seekers of truth we (MGTOW) sometimes like to apportion blame, especially to the women: Theyíre like this and theyíre like that. Iím not belittling this effort in any way, far from it; todayís men absolutely have to know the traits of women to protect themselves.

    But as MGTOWER often says: this is the deep end of the pool.

    I have to ask myself why women behave this way when often it is to their long term detriment. Even if they do get the car and the house and the kids and everything else because of unfair and misandrist laws they often end up miserable. Why? Unless they set out to do just this (gold diggers) they have failed in their mission and simply donít understand what went wrong. The inner hamster has a lot to do with this.

    The only answer Iíve been able to come up with so far is that theyíve been conned just as much we have by the gynocracy. Yes they support and continue its advancement, but only because they see the short term gain. Like all sheeple they donít look at the big picture. And maybe, just maybe this is also due the hamster scrambling their thought processes.

    Women arenít evil (well, some of them obviously are). When Iím out socialising and chatting with women without the notion of sex or free drinks being on the cards they tend to be friendly and easy going, just like the guys. Maybe thatís to do with my age and where I live and I accept that, and maybe because of the net times have changed, but their views seem no more extreme than the views of men, even if they do get the odd feminist dig in which for me is easily deflected. Why would they be? Theyíre all (blue pill men and women) being controlled by the same rhetoric and manipulations.

    For the most part the problem I have with women has nothing to do with relating to them on an individual, platonic level. Yes some are out and out cunts, but then again so are some guys. For me the problems arise when you get involved with them romantically, thatís when you truly see them in their true colours for the manipulative, self-centred fucks that they really are.

    Generally speaking I enjoy the platonic company of our womenfolk, deranged as they are, I just donít want them under my roof or having any say in how I run my life.
    Last edited by Jackoff; May 17, 2020 at 2:55 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

  12. #12
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    Re: Paradoxes

    A point of view well said!

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    Re: Paradoxes

    Jackoff,

    Thank you again for a very interesting and detailed post.

    I have some comments in response to your post.

    However, if you get into a conversation with them and question why they believe the things they do they quickly run out of answers. The indoctrination is so complete they donít even question it. They simply get angry and cast aspersions.
    This may be true of a small minority of SJW, and Radical Feminists. I must say, however, it has been my direct experience, that when questioned, such people are actually well aware of the manipulation game they are playing, but are actually pretending not to know, or understand.

    Parents are too busy taking care of the basics like paying the bills, putting food on the table, worrying about their employment status, arguing with each other, and taking time out to simply relax and enjoy themselves to relieve all the pressures of modern living. They are so concerned with the here and now they simply donít want to take the time to think things out properly Ė hence they go with the flow and become sheeple.

    The biggest problem with the family structure today, to my way of thinking, isnít that men are better than women or women are better than men, itís because no-one knows their place anymore. In the past the man went out to work and the woman took care of the home. Now Iím not for a second saying that this was or is right and proper, all Iím saying is that people knew their roles and brought up their kids accordingly and for the most part it worked.
    I would beg to differ. You wouldn't disagree that the average mother, cannot take 15 minutes out of her life; however busy she may be with other commitments, to tell her son the most vital of information about female manipulation?

    Anyone has that kind of time, not matter how busy they are in their life. Anyone can spare 10 - 15 minutes to sit down and speak with their son; they already do that for homework, school projects. Somehow, something doesn't add up.

    But they donít do this by sitting their children down and explaining things to them, they do it through a sort of osmosis by setting the example (and throwing in the odd manipulative phrase or two like: a man should never hit a woman, and not: people shouldnít use violence). Why wouldnít women use men like this if they can? The whole notion of Ďselfí seems to be the imperative of the day which is re-enforced everywhere you look.
    This is interesting too. According to the dictionary definition of Osmosis, it is the "the process of gradual or unconscious accumulation of ideas, knowledge etc"

    I would certainly beg to differ here. If gradual, as in the way the genders split and their historic evolution have brought us to this junction, ie "man chases the woman" "woman is looked after" "man pays for the bills". If these "unspoken" rules are arrived at gradually through history and culture, then sure I can see where you are coming from, it doesn't it make it moral or fair in my opinion nonetheless.

    But, if you mean unconscious, then I think we would have to depart here. I think women are VERY conscious of how they play the game, of how they manipulate circumstances and environments to get what they want.

    Case in point, I am sure you have used public transport?

    Take a good look at any family with one boy and one girl of similar ages. The boy is minding his own business, quietly reading a book or playing his Nintendo.

    The girl? She is looking around at her surroundings, reading social dynamics, figuring out who has the most power and ability to provide and is working out how to influence this person (usually it is her dad).

    Normally there is simply no incentive for a man to speak to his son in this way. All it serves to do is undermine him in the eyes of his son.

    Fathers, like mothers, do indeed impart information through osmosis, but itís the wrong message.

    Every time that dad submits to momís irrational demands for the sake of a bit of peace and quiet he teaches his son that this is the right and proper thing to do, that we, as men, are subservient to the whims of the female, that they are the ones in control and we are merely servants.

    Alternatively, the man does not give in. He stands his ground. The woman throws a fit (and everything else she can lay her hands on). The man retaliates and ends up in a cell. Again the boy sees this and determines that women are in control and we as men are merely servants.

    Sad, but true.
    This is fascinating.

    But I must say, it could be something that is unique to the western/christian culture. In the Middle East, many fathers (including my own, although he was not as active as he could have been) warn their sons of female manipulation VERY EARLY ON IN LIFE.

    Some fathers go to the extent where they get the son to see his mother only as sinister and untrustworthy. That is a good thing in my opinion. At least, it is better than leaving the son with no knowledge of female and maternal manipulation.
    A mother cannot raise a boy to be a man, not because he needs a father figure; but because she favours team vagina over her own son.

    Tradcon women are the most manipulative of all kinds of women, because they infect you with false hope.
    Radfems are your best friend, because they hate you and verbalise it - that's honesty!

    The red pill rage is a process which takes many many years - so be kind and patient with yourself; you will overcome it!

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    Re: Paradoxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    In the Middle East, many fathers (including my own, although he was not as active as he could have been) warn their sons of female manipulation VERY EARLY ON IN LIFE.

    Some fathers go to the extent where they get the son to see his mother only as sinister and untrustworthy. That is a good thing in my opinion. At least, it is better than leaving the son with no knowledge of female and maternal manipulation.
    So, how does that work, generally? The father who warned his son about women was himself warned by his own father as a boy? Maybe? Maybe not?

    But if he was warned by his own father, we see that he did marry a woman and father children to now have this son he is warning. (I'm assuming marriage here.)

    So, are these warnings explained to the sons not as advice to avoid women (GYOW?), but for the sons to know what they are getting into?

    "Look, son, you can't trust them, they are manipulative and deceiving, but I know you are going to get with them so you need to know these things."

    Is it like that?


    And separate from that, how do these sons growing up with this advice treat their mothers in ways that I as a westerner boy perhaps would not have done? And do the mothers see it?
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  15. #15
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    Re: Paradoxes

    So, how does that work, generally? The father who warned his son about women was himself warned by his own father as a boy? Maybe? Maybe not?
    That I am not so sure about. I would guess that in the Middle East, women are seen as generally untrustworthy, manipulative. It is just a cultural thing I would imagine (I didn't grow up all of my life in the Middle East actually). Men have their spaces where women dare not enter, and in that space, I would imagine they are free to swap notes; like we do on this forum.

    So, are these warnings explained to the sons not as advice to avoid women (GYOW?), but for the sons to know what they are getting into?

    "Look, son, you can't trust them, they are manipulative and deceiving, but I know you are going to get with them so you need to know these things."

    Is it like that?
    Something along those lines, yes. The father may not put it in those exact words.
    In the Middle East, GTOW is not an option, and marriage is the only option. And since you have to get married, then best to be prepared.

    And separate from that, how do these sons growing up with this advice treat their mothers in ways that I as a westerner boy perhaps would not have done? And do the mothers see it?
    Mothers in the middle don't have much leeway when it comes to manipulating their son. The father and other male figures try to intervene early on to instil a healthy sense of mistrust towards the female, or anything feminine in general. This naturally leads the sons to become more suspicious of his mother and other females in general. Again, this isn't done overtly i.e "your mother is a liar, be careful", but in a more subtle way.

    The way a son treats his mother is more like the son is the one making demands and the mother has to shut up and do what is demanded of her. If the son has a tough exam coming up, he will demand healthy food be cooked, snacks prepared, room cleaned etc. The mother wouldn't dare not meet to his demands. Partly for fear of the father, but also because this is what is socially expected.

    I would imagine that most mothers are really angered by this, because the one thing that a woman hates most is for men to know about their manipulative behaviours. After all, aside from sexual access and procreation, manipulation the only other weapon they have.

    The relationship between the son and mother is therefore based more on mistrust rather than trust. The relationship is distant, cold. Middle Eastern societies, in their "hard patriarchy" setting raise the man up to be more suspicious of their mothers, and other female siblings and the "feminine principle" in general.

    Sons simply don't spend much time with their mothers or sisters, I imagine this would mean that mothers, sisters have less opportunity to manipulate them.

    Note, I said "hard patriarchy". Such a society though no longer exists, in my opinion. Even in very fundamentalist regions of Saudi, many sons now worship their mothers and behave like momma boys.

    Many Arab men nowadays, have very low testosterone and many even overweight with man tits. They are primarily raised by Indonesian or phillipino caretakers, obviously female. And the fathers are uninterested in taking an active role in the upbringing of their son.
    A mother cannot raise a boy to be a man, not because he needs a father figure; but because she favours team vagina over her own son.

    Tradcon women are the most manipulative of all kinds of women, because they infect you with false hope.
    Radfems are your best friend, because they hate you and verbalise it - that's honesty!

    The red pill rage is a process which takes many many years - so be kind and patient with yourself; you will overcome it!

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    Re: Paradoxes

    When my son was a teenager I would try to talk to him about the way things are... But since His Mom had custody and not me, he was only hearing her side of the "truth" as saw me as the guilty party of all bad things in the world.
    So He is 34 now and married to a psycho who has two kids of her own and They just had a baby boy this past November.... He tells me..."I wished I had of listen to you dad".....I say "I wished I'd listen to your Grandad as well son"

    It seems that the majority of us are bound and determined to jump head first into the mix regardless of whatever warnings we were given or whatever mistakes and troubles we saw in others.

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    Re: Paradoxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    This may be true of a small minority of SJW, and Radical Feminists. I must say, however, it has been my direct experience, that when questioned, such people are actually well aware of the manipulation game they are playing, but are actually pretending not to know, or understand.
    Agreed. But this is not in conflict with my observations. They have to resort to manipulation because their arguments are flawed, and because their arguments are flawed they quickly run out of answers. Their getting angry and casting aspersions are two such manifestations of this manipulation.

    I would beg to differ. You wouldn't disagree that the average mother, cannot take 15 minutes out of her life; however busy she may be with other commitments, to tell her son the most vital of information about female manipulation?

    Anyone has that kind of time, not matter how busy they are in their life. Anyone can spare 10 - 15 minutes to sit down and speak with their son; they already do that for homework, school projects. Somehow, something doesn't add up.
    A slight misunderstanding I think. I didn’t say parents didn’t have the time to speak to their sons but rather they didn’t have the time to think things through properly, however this applies mostly to the father.

    With the mother, when it comes to female manipulation she probably doesn’t see the need. Because of projection she tends to believe that all people are like this, what’s the point in stating the obvious? Experience also re-enforces this notion. Little boys are just as powerless as little girls and become quite adept at manipulation tactics, for example to get sweeties, their favourite food for dinner, a new toy, watch T.V. etc. but tend to grow out of this as they get older and the ability to fend for themselves develops.

    Also there is something of a dichotomy going on, whilst females are indeed aware of what they doing, they also believe that they are good and honest people. It is then fair to assume that they see the manipulation of others as good and honest in some warped way and therefore there is nothing to warn about. As I say: not well thought out.

    But, if you mean unconscious, then I think we would have to depart here. I think women are VERY conscious of how they play the game, of how they manipulate circumstances and environments to get what they want.
    Indeed they are very aware of what they are doing. I was talking about the learning process having a subliminal factor to it.

    Take a good look at any family with one boy and one girl of similar ages. The boy is minding his own business, quietly reading a book or playing his Nintendo.

    The girl? She is looking around at her surroundings, reading social dynamics, figuring out who has the most power and ability to provide and is working out how to influence this person (usually it is her dad).
    I think you give the girl too much credit here (if that’s the right word). In my opinion the boy is quiet because he has what he wants and is happy enough. What girls want more than anything else is attention and that is why they generally seem more alert to their surroundings. I agree though that girls are MUCH more interested in social dynamics than boys. As for it being intentionally about learning how to manipulate I am hesitant, although that surely will be a by-product.

    But I must say, it could be something that is unique to the western/christian culture. In the Middle East, many fathers (including my own, although he was not as active as he could have been) warn their sons of female manipulation VERY EARLY ON IN LIFE.

    Some fathers go to the extent where they get the son to see his mother only as sinister and untrustworthy. That is a good thing in my opinion. At least, it is better than leaving the son with no knowledge of female and maternal manipulation.
    Having no personal experience of this type of culture I find it a very interesting observation. Thank you.
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    Re: Paradoxes

    As for the Middle Eastern culture? Any culture that allows you to drift on all 3 lanes of the highway at 80 to 180 mph can't be all that bad. Kinda like the US, except cars are the new gun!

    In my world, under my rules, I'd have drifting and target practice at the same time!

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    Re: Paradoxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoppes#9 View Post
    It seems that the majority of us are bound and determined to jump head first into the mix regardless of whatever warnings we were given or whatever mistakes and troubles we saw in others.
    This is very true, at least it was in my case.
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    Re: Paradoxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    This is very true, at least it was in my case.
    Honestly, I've learned from other's mistakes, and for the longest time believed that a very precise and accurate picture of one's self can be found in the wisdom of others, whereas the individual is inherently blind to their own faults and misgivings. With that in mind I've discovered shortcuts over and around misery and countless troubles. Ignorance is when we fail to listen and inquire. Arrogance is when we start telling the mechanic what's wrong with our car.

    I've opted out of all commitment with the opposite gender because they've become committed to themselves and their sisters and the woes of this society are all the eyes and ears you need to see and hear it!

    All I did was listened, focused, and conducted myself accordingly! I've seen way too much cultural carnage and what amounts to pandemic manslaughter to want any carnage and slaughter of my own!

    No Trespassing is my answer and pathology to all this unleashed social madness. Wildlife is now held in higher regard than human life and that's is the final straw to any self preserving individual!

    The symbiotic relationshit between women and government is astounding! The parasitic relationshit between men and government is also astounding.

    MGTOW have broken this unwholesome bond and opted for something else they cannot comprehend or dare to contemplate.
    Are the laws and order within your society a bit unreasonable, counterproductive, and even hazardous? That's the mark of feminism diligently at work in your society. Need relief? MGTOW is the only ejection seat available to men facing this live systematic crash and burn scenario.


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