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  1. #1
    Moderator Thomas Covenant's Avatar
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    What is a Neutral?



    Firstly, I think it has been said already but perhaps we need a new name. How about the happy cynical agnostics?

    I just wanted to share what I thought of the concept, and explain why I self-identified with it. I hope some others can then have a stab about what they think it means (anyone, not just our fellow travelers).

    Firstly (I'll get this out of the way) in relation to the ghosts and the bachelors - I don't think we have strong feelings towards one or the other, or we believe that each has equal merit. Perhaps at the same time, or at different times or different places.

    For myself, I have read some of the PUA theory, and game etc, and I acknowledge the huge advantages to be gained from employing such mindfulness techniques. For me though, I'm not really interested in dating, so I would apply it in professional settings, not only to get better relations out of women (you can't avoid them really) but also to improve my interactions in mixed company. So yeah, I'm agnostic in my attitude, I couldn't care less about having a girlfriend (or not) but I can see the merits in why some people would. That means I can't really be a ghost for the moment. Perhaps when I retire, I would better fit that mold. For now, I still want to interact with the system.

    On the other hand, ghosting (or going Galt) is very appealing to me. Having read a bit about Objectivism, I think it has a lot of merit as a personal philosophy, and self-reliance is always valuable. I just don't think the world is going to burn as badly or as quickly as some ghosts can lead us to believe (although I am convinced we are in decline). So again, I'm at the restaurant but I'm not ordering everything off the menu.

    Perhaps a lot of the other guys who were averse to the new categories felt a lot like I do, that they want to pick and choose from the MGTOW menu as it suits them. I just happen to think that Jagr did a great job in covering that viewpoint with this sub-forum. As I said, maybe the name is putting people off!

    What do you guys think?
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    I work in financial planning. I am interested in metal (all kinds), miniature painting and PC gaming. I live in Scotland.

  2. #2
    Senior Member YourTipOfTheDay's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    I could be wrong but I didn't think "neutral" meant that they were somewhere in between bachelor and ghost, or that they weren't sure about either, or mildly both, etc.
    The way that jagr described it, it would seem like neutral was it's own thing (more about learning about the nature of women), like neutral could've been referred to as something else instead of neutral, since neutral would seem to imply that it was in between both bachelor and ghost.

    I'm just wondering/thinking aloud because, if neutral really is in between, then I'll have to change my "type" since I chose a name that was in between ghost and bachelor - mainly because I swing through periods of both depending on my mood and circumstances.

  3. #3
    Administrator Unboxxed's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    Thanks for the invite to talk further on this.

    It's like asking me what religious denomination I am. I've attended Baptist churches, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Protestant, Bible churches. In my twenties, I used to attend a different denomination of church every Sunday, rotating, never learning any difference between them. Whatever differences they held, to me it was like sweating the small stuff. It was enough that I saw the bigger distinctions between those denominations and, say, Catholicism (which is unique from the others), and also atheism (which is unique from all of them).

    I see Ghost, Bachelor, and Neutral as denominations of the same idea called MGTOW, while distinctly separate enough from, say, PUA's (which is unique from the others), and from Blue Pill (which is unique from all of them).

    I don't know what denomination of MGTOW I am here. Ghost? What is ghost? What is Bachelor? What is Neutral? Why do I want to fret about these rubbery words when later I won't even recall why I chose one? What's my zodiac sign? What's my Sleep Number? Are you Chevy or Ford? What's in your drink? Mine has Kahlua, and crème. Oh, how interesting, tell me more.

    I realize that people everywhere love love love to label themselves for others to see, but I am just not one of those people.
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  4. #4
    Moderator Thomas Covenant's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    YourTip, you seem to have read it completely differently from me. That's to be expected though, it is the least "labely" of the labels I guess.

    The way that jagr described it, it would seem like neutral was it's own thing (more about learning about the nature of women),
    That's all MGTOW. From ghosting right up to the married MGTOWs with kids. Hopefully more guys will chip in and we can get an agreement about it.

    It's like asking me what religious denomination I am. I've attended Baptist churches, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Protestant, Bible churches. In my twenties, I used to attend a different denomination of church every Sunday, rotating, never learning any difference between them. Whatever differences they held, to me it was like sweating the small stuff. It was enough that I saw the bigger distinctions between those denominations and, say, Catholicism (which is unique from the others), and also atheism (which is unique from all of them).
    Those are all strains of Protestantism though (except Catholicism, which you have noted is different).

    What I would say, is that there is a huge gulf between agnostic atheism and gnostic atheism. Those guys might both not be religious, but they are not the same at all.

    I see Ghost, Bachelor, and Neutral as denominations of the same idea called MGTOW, while distinctly separate enough from, say, PUA's (which is unique from the others), and from Blue Pill (which is unique from all of them).
    Some folks might see PUAs and MGTOW as subsets of the red pill, with only the blue pill being really different. It does depend a lot on perspective.

    I realize that people everywhere love love love to label themselves for others to see, but I am just not one of those people.
    There is a reason for that. Agreeing on what something "is" is kind of a prerequisite for meaningful discussion.
    I work in financial planning. I am interested in metal (all kinds), miniature painting and PC gaming. I live in Scotland.

  5. #5
    Moderator Thomas Covenant's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    YourTip,

    Jagr has mentioned that the Neutral term was intended as a catch all for those not particularly committed to either of the others.

    I work in financial planning. I am interested in metal (all kinds), miniature painting and PC gaming. I live in Scotland.

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    Senior Member YourTipOfTheDay's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Covenant View Post
    That's all MGTOW. From ghosting right up to the married MGTOWs with kids. Hopefully more guys will chip in and we can get an agreement about it.
    That's what I used to think too (and of course still do) but when jagr posted this:

    Neutrals (MGTOW) - More about contentment, risk-mitigation. Discussing Red Pill is primary topic: attitudes of women, female behavior, how relationships/marriages can sour. The impact of feminism in the workplace, in life in general. Generally not interested in dating, or taking action (ie: MRA)
    It just seemed like somehow Neutral meant that it was MORE about discussing the nature of females than the other two types. I dunno, that's just what I picked up and I was kind of confused by it because it was my general understanding that all MGTOW did that.


    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Covenant View Post
    YourTip,

    Jagr has mentioned that the Neutral term was intended as a catch all for those not particularly committed to either of the others.
    Hmm... All right. Thank you for the link.

  7. #7
    Moderator Thomas Covenant's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    Well I guess if most of us decide it should be one way, then there's probably not going to be a big issue.

    That's not to say we couldn't live with different interpretations.
    I work in financial planning. I am interested in metal (all kinds), miniature painting and PC gaming. I live in Scotland.

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    Senior Member YourTipOfTheDay's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Covenant View Post
    Well I guess if most of us decide it should be one way, then there's probably not going to be a big issue.

    That's not to say we couldn't live with different interpretations.
    Well I actually agree and like your understanding of it more than what I thought it was. When I first read "neutral" I thought it was sort of "everything else" then I read the description jagr gave and it sent me on another path.

    I'm probably still going to keep my Ghochelor tag because I am not really neutral. I'm a very black and white, all or nothing kind of person (to my detriment at times), and so I am either completely isolated for months or I am extremely social for a while (usually a few weeks to a month or two) and in those social times I live a lot like how I would imagine a bachelor would: friends, dates, etc. And in my isolated times I live a lot like how I would imagine a ghost would.

    I'm never really... neutral. Although I wish I could be. I am constantly striving to live a more balanced life, but it's like I am just not programmed that way. I either do my best or I don't do it at all, I'm either totally interested and obsessed or the subject is dead to me. I am told this type of behavior is typical of one with Asperger's. I am sure there are those without Asperger's that fall victim to this type of problematic thinking as well though.

  9. #9
    Moderator Thomas Covenant's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    Actually I agree with your assessment there. I am the opposite, I would never alternate between Ghost and Bachelor in extremis, my lifestyle, personality etc are very fixed.

    Although I've sometimes supsected Aspergers in myself because I like detail and repetition, and I sometimes struggle with cues, I never develop obsessions. I have the least addictive personality imaginable.
    I work in financial planning. I am interested in metal (all kinds), miniature painting and PC gaming. I live in Scotland.

  10. #10
    Senior Member BeijaFlor's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    I'd suggested "MGTOW Central" for this community, while we were discussing it in "mod space," and "Centrists" for the label.

    To my mind, it's not so much about "more or less MGTOW," but about how people come to MGTOW from different perspectives, and with different needs. Some of us are naturally more gregarious than others; some are more protective of their privacy and their freedom.
    "The Red Pill is the start of the journey, not the end." - Chairborne

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  11. #11
    Administrator Unboxxed's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    Agreeing on what something "is" is kind of a prerequisite for meaningful discussion.
    Something? Ok. Someone? I gently and rhetorically ask, what Type of MGTOW does one need to see placed beneath my username that will promote discussion with me any more than I've enjoyed it thus far? Except, yes, I know Jagr's intent is for users to see the Type and take their comments in view of their Type.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Chukhed's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    First, kudos for the use of the Futurama's neutral ambassador. That's a great episode.

    I'm guessing it was tough for all of us to subscribe to a label that we dont quite fit into. I chose 'ghost' because that's what i'm like when sober. I'd rather not even speak to women, and usually dont if i can help it. However, that does not mean i want it all to burn down, or have a bleak outlook on life. I'm a pretty positive person most of the time. I avoid most women because they are usually negative and needy.

    When i've had a few drinks in me though, i'd consider a conversation or pump-n-dump with women. Reading about game and PUAs is interesting, but i still cant subscribe to the pussy-worship of it all, {it kind of disgusts me in all honesty}. I was always under the assumption that PUAs are still blue-pill in that sense, but they are here on this site, so i'm not going to argue that. {Guess that means i should stay out of the bachelor sections if i dont want to get banned}

    So, catagorically speaking, i'm neutral-ghost {i think}, but it doesnt really matter. In the end, we all do what we please regardless of label because we are MGTOW!
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Nuggets's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    I didn't choose Ghost because I thought it was more about 'off the grid' stuff. I would like to be off the grid, unfortunately that doesn't work with my career goals. I prefer being anonymous but that's impossible in the music industry (I'm not there yet, but I expect to be in the next 5 years, to a small extent). I'm definitely prone to conspiracy theories, and I don't use that term with stigma, I just think it's a fascinating topic - aside from batshit insane nonsense like lizard people or gorilla people.

    I think things are declining but Bachelor didn't seem to fit because I'm introverted and not very social. Not anti-social though, I'm highly social with a select few people at a time - like less than 5. I think game is a good thing, but I have 0 interest in going 'out of my way' to game, if that makes sense. Also 0 interest in LTRs, girlfriends, or anything besides a FWB. I love sex, but don't give a shit about intimacy. That makes it sound like I'm full of shit, but that's definitely how I feel about it right now.

    I'm very all or nothing with optimism/negativity. I think they're interconnected in my brain. I view things in complete crash and burn mode or I'll feel like everything is mind-blowingly amazing left and right - for years at a time. It's difficult to explain.

    Ok spouting off my personal reasons probably isn't that helpful. I'm not exactly sure about "neutral" either. Not social enough to do Bachelor, not anonymous enough to do Ghost. Kind of lame when I put it that way Lol

  14. #14
    Moderator Thomas Covenant's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    Not lame at all Nuggets. And I was hoping to get personal reasons actually, I think they would add to the discussions. It looks like we are quite alike in our outlook.

    I'd suggested "MGTOW Central" for this community, while we were discussing it in "mod space," and "Centrists" for the label.

    To my mind, it's not so much about "more or less MGTOW," but about how people come to MGTOW from different perspectives, and with different needs. Some of us are naturally more gregarious than others; some are more protective of their privacy and their freedom.
    I think those points all make sense Beija. I think that "what is MGTOW" is subject to various different definitions, and none are more objectively valid than any other. So I like the fact that the broad spectrum has been recognised.

    Something? Ok. Someone? I gently and rhetorically ask, what Type of MGTOW does one need to see placed beneath my username that will promote discussion with me any more than I've enjoyed it thus far? Except, yes, I know Jagr's intent is for users to see the Type and take their comments in view of their Type.
    Unboxxxed, you raise a good point. For me, MGTOW is not really a part of my personal identity, (it's more of a personal philosophy) much the way that my political leanings aren't either. For example, I have friends that are very left-wing. If I saw politics as a defining part of my self, I couldn't be friends with them. So for me, having a further MGTOW designation isn't a limiting factor, and wouldn't cause any division with anyone else. I don't see it as a dehumanising thing where I'm being reduced in any way.

    To the other point, it theoretically wouldn't encourage more discussion than already (but it seems to be inviting some in practise) but as I've said before, it's a quick way of acknowledging some key differences, and making sure that no point of view gets drowned out as may be the case with something more informal. On Nacho's old board, for example, you could get banned for a "let it burn" comment if it was taken the wrong way. I see it as a kind of protection of diversity of thought. Maybe we already had that, but it does no harm to be explicit about it IMO.
    I work in financial planning. I am interested in metal (all kinds), miniature painting and PC gaming. I live in Scotland.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Nuggets's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    After reading Jagr's bachelor intro, and thinking about this more, maybe the key component is level of enthusiasm for sociability. Bachelors seek out social situations, want to be social, despite introversion or extroversion, and Ghosts are trying to avoid it, although that's a huge blanket statement. The way I see it, Ghost is about being anonymous, and it can be an optimistic or pessimistic approach.

    Additionally, there's the factor of enthusiasm about women. Maybe that's not the right word, but there's a different attitude about how they can factor into a man's life. It goes without saying this excludes marriage. I agree there's a difference between PUA and Bachelor-ism, although PUA Bachelors are fine by me. I'm not enthusiastic about being social or interacting with women, however I'll take both as they happen, so I think that makes me Neutral.

    I stole YourTip's combo idea and put in Neuchelor, because I think Bachelor fits me aside from the enthusiasm about being social. I fundamentally believe we're in a decline, but I try not to dwell on it. Practicing optimism, without being naive, is a manly virtue when it comes down to it.

    So I think enthusiasm for sociability is a giant factor, because Neutrals and Ghosts shouldn't be precluded from optimism, self-improvement, connoisseur-ism, etc. I know that's not the intention here.

  16. #16
    Moderator Thomas Covenant's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    Mods, can we stickify this thread? I think we've done a good job so far of exploring the purpose of the sub-forum.
    I work in financial planning. I am interested in metal (all kinds), miniature painting and PC gaming. I live in Scotland.

  17. #17
    Senior Member bob's Avatar
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    Re: What is a Neutral?

    There are no Neutrals. There are only Generalists. There have always only been Generalists.
    "Every woman is an engine of lies powered by a core of raw reproductive need"
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