Thread: MGTOW v Red Pill

A lot of red pill stuff "makes sense" - what I hate, is the likes of this guy: https://www.youtube.com/@EntrepreneursInCars playing up for the cameras, making out like he's an expert in life/women - he openly admitted several times he was a huge simp and it feels like he's trying to make up for his simping by going hardcore redpill.

MGTOW is about keeping sane. Keeping your wallet safe. Keeping your house your "home", rather than let it be lost in a legal battle - which will happen at some point.

Red pill is using the knowledge of female nature to your advantage and trying to hook up with women using it.

Reading through these posts many of you have put much thought and effort into trying to understand this phenomenon called the red pill and all credit to you.

Again, back to basics:

The red pill is about seeing the truth, not only about females, their nature and their actions; but about everything happening around us: relationships, politics, war, peace, friendships, enmities, financials, science, religion etc., etc.

It is about seeing the truth, it is not about what you do with this insight, interesting as that may be.

Being PUA does not make you red pilled about women yet being red pilled can increase your game allowing you to become a more effective PUA; just as being a sharp businessman does not make you red pilled about business but being red pilled about business can make you a more effective businessman.

Actions do not make someone red pilled, understanding does.

Don’t put the cart before the horse.

I don’t believe it is even possible to be truly red pilled about everything. The only way that this would be possible is to know everything about... well, everything.

Pick and choose your targets, those things that have important implications for you, i.e. those things that impact you on a personal level that you can actually do something about such as whether or not to pursue females, and those that hold general interest to you but when push comes to shove, be honest – you don’t really care.

Maybe the "red pill" label should just be regarded as a generic label that means roughly the same thing as "the manosphere." And if you want to distinguish MGTOW, MRAs, PUAs, incels, etc. separately, then call them by their separate names.

As for the new generation of red pill/PUAs who teach updated game (such as Andrew Tate, Fresh & Fit, Kevin Samuels, and so on), I've seen them repeatedly referred to as "alpha male" videos or "alpha male" philosophy. Of course, that might result in arguments over whether they truly represent alpha males in the first place. But I could see describing that particular sector of the manosphere as "alpha male philosophy" just to separate it out and give it its own descriptive title.

It's all just a terminology squabble, anyway.

Originally Posted by RustyNuts

PUA is using Female Nature (RP knowledge) for "Game", to date women. Women consider "Game" as abuse or the use of it for picking up women as abuse. Why? Because the PUA is not naturally that way, it was a learned craft, she is being fooled into believing he is a natural. She thinks, after finding out he is a PUA, she has been had or conned. In reality, the "Game" that PUA play belongs to women. The woman's female nature sets the rules on what works and what doesn't. So women get pissed off at men when they figure out the rules to her "Game"...

I'll just take my toys over here and not play her silly "Game".... Fuck sharing with her when she wants to keep her rules to herself.... I know what happens when I loose... GYOW.

It was when I was doing PUA that I first realized that most women, and especially, feminists don't give a fuck about men, or even consider us human beings. It's true that there is a sub-section of PUA that is full of douchebags who care nothing about people or who they hurt, but they're the minority. The main area of PUA that I found were just men trying to find a girlfriend and possibly a wife. PUA is just hypergamy surfing. When there's a wave, you can surf. If there's dead calm, surfing is impossible. PUA just teaches men about women's natural instincts and how you can tap into them to create attraction. It did work for me to get laid, but I was among those looking for a quality woman worth marrying. If you do PUA right, you build yourself up by working out, dressing nicely, having a good career, you can build some attraction. But you'll find out at some point either that she just sees you as a quick lay, or if she's contemplating an LTR (long-term-relationship), she's financially interrogating you.

The more benign areas of PUA have a slogan "leave her better than when you found her, or at least no worse off." There's a whole string of ethical codes on how to treat women under the "do no harm" mantra. I noticed that feminists ignored EVERY BIT of that, and just wanted to slap a simple label on PUA, just like they do on MGTOW, and the label they slap is always negative. I would say that maybe 10 percent of PUA, at most, were slimy dudes out to just con women and fuck them. The other 90 were just lonely dudes wanting a good woman in their lives. The idea was not to learn a bunch of bullshit lines, but to come up with material for presenting yourself that was true to who you are. It was so that a woman could get a quick rundown on the man you really were, and didn't see you as just some annoying nervous beta chump pestering her and being creepy.

If a woman went online with the question, "How can I find and attract a really good man to settle down with," there is hardly anyone who would see her as evil. Yet, a man who does the exact same thing looking for a woman is instantly labeled an evil predator. I noticed when I was in PUA meeting a lot of women that feminists will label almost anything a man does as sinister and misogynistic. It was my first inkling that the dating playing field was absurdly out of balance.

PUA: I'm going to try to find a girlfriend/wife.
Feminists: Evil, terrible, despicable predator.

MGTOW: I'm going to leave women alone and just build a great life.
Feminists: Despicable, evil misogynist.

Remember: There was once a legitimate game where you could search for a girlfriend. The men in it were not necessarily simps. Today the whole thing has been overrun by feminazis and simps. Simps are douchebags with no backbone and no boundaries who will let anyone walk all over them in hopes of getting laid. A dude in 1960 looking for a girlfriend would have told an obnoxious, hateful feminist to piss off, and he would keep looking since there were plenty of good women out there. That's the problem today. Maybe one one hundredth of one percent of women out there are good women who will care about a man.

You could probably find someone to fuck you, but the juice won't be worth the squeeze. You could get an STD, which would be the least severe of the possible consequences.

Originally Posted by TigPlaze

PUA is just hypergamy surfing

It's surfing a coral reef! My search for LTR's tore my heartstrings one after another, until there was nothing left to tie me to another. Like Velcro being torn apart and re attached in a dirty debris infested environment, the filth and dirt built up until there was no more way to attach, and the tearing apart became natural, quicker and easier with each detachment, to the point attaching became pointless and worthless.

I stopped starting things in life that I learned will have a bitter end, the modern dynamics to dating is the same as swimming in acid, it will dissolve your sole and scar your heart.

Have a dip? Never again! I brought that train wreck lifestyle to an utter END.

BTW, great post!

PUA gets ridiculed because the internet made it impossible to hide what you did (anyone remember Steven Seagal's lies?)
They grifted money from incels and betas and promised them that they would get beautiful women, 10/10's, perfect in every way that they could marry.
Then when you watch the PUA guys in pictures and videos... they're with ugly women. The only beautiful ones the PUA grifters had were actresses/prostitutes that they hired to be arm candy to continue the grift.

So the red pill got co-opted by them since the motto is: The perfect woman doesn't exist.
So now the PUA's began to sell that ideal, that the perfect woman doesn't exist but "good enough" does, and if you do 11 million things that we can call "game" you can get her. So give us money anyway and we'll show you how.

Then the culture evolved again, this time into two factions - this is where we're at currently:
1. The abandonment of western women in general and going overseas to find a wife - The passport bros (u/Gaylubeoil on TRP subreddit is one of the first advocates for this)
2. Teach women what men want; let men be men and women be women and somehow, like magic, we hope that the slut culture stops (Fresh&Fit, Andrew Tate etc)

Cultural evolution is a funny thing isn't it. But never forget: At the end of the day, they're all still trying to sell you something.

Originally Posted by Jackoff

You are of course welcome to your opinion but I respectfully disagree.

PUAs do indeed seek validation from other guys, but they do what they do in order to improve their ability to get laid therefore their main goal is validation from women.

Whilst I have no evidence that they are looking for a unicorn it seems reasonable to me that this is their hidden objective. They’re obviously enamoured with women to the point of obsession and IMO shag so many in a forlorn search for something special.

MRAs do indeed seek validation from society, but with the exception of the MGTOW MRA they do so to make relationships more equitable. The only reason I can see for this is the relationship is usually their ultimate goal, therefore even though they have and preach red pill knowledge they are blue pill at heart with everything that that entails.

I guess that in my eyes they (PUAs and MRAs) are purple pilled.

As for all red pillers fitting your description, MGTOW are red pillers and IMO the only true red-pillers.

Agreed.
The mgtow red pill brings both knowledge and freedom.

That just leaves the black pill.
Or is that just an incel thing?

Originally Posted by TigPlaze

It was when I was doing PUA that I first realized that most women, and especially, feminists don't give a fuck about men, or even consider us human beings. It's true that there is a sub-section of PUA that is full of douchebags who care nothing about people or who they hurt, but they're the minority. The main area of PUA that I found were just men trying to find a girlfriend and possibly a wife. PUA is just hypergamy surfing. When there's a wave, you can surf. If there's dead calm, surfing is impossible. PUA just teaches men about women's natural instincts and how you can tap into them to create attraction. It did work for me to get laid, but I was among those looking for a quality woman worth marrying. If you do PUA right, you build yourself up by working out, dressing nicely, having a good career, you can build some attraction. But you'll find out at some point either that she just sees you as a quick lay, or if she's contemplating an LTR (long-term-relationship), she's financially interrogating you.

The more benign areas of PUA have a slogan "leave her better than when you found her, or at least no worse off." There's a whole string of ethical codes on how to treat women under the "do no harm" mantra. I noticed that feminists ignored EVERY BIT of that, and just wanted to slap a simple label on PUA, just like they do on MGTOW, and the label they slap is always negative. I would say that maybe 10 percent of PUA, at most, were slimy dudes out to just con women and fuck them. The other 90 were just lonely dudes wanting a good woman in their lives. The idea was not to learn a bunch of bullshit lines, but to come up with material for presenting yourself that was true to who you are. It was so that a woman could get a quick rundown on the man you really were, and didn't see you as just some annoying nervous beta chump pestering her and being creepy.

If a woman went online with the question, "How can I find and attract a really good man to settle down with," there is hardly anyone who would see her as evil. Yet, a man who does the exact same thing looking for a woman is instantly labeled an evil predator. I noticed when I was in PUA meeting a lot of women that feminists will label almost anything a man does as sinister and misogynistic. It was my first inkling that the dating playing field was absurdly out of balance.

PUA: I'm going to try to find a girlfriend/wife.
Feminists: Evil, terrible, despicable predator.

MGTOW: I'm going to leave women alone and just build a great life.
Feminists: Despicable, evil misogynist.

Remember: There was once a legitimate game where you could search for a girlfriend. The men in it were not necessarily simps. Today the whole thing has been overrun by feminazis and simps. Simps are douchebags with no backbone and no boundaries who will let anyone walk all over them in hopes of getting laid. A dude in 1960 looking for a girlfriend would have told an obnoxious, hateful feminist to piss off, and he would keep looking since there were plenty of good women out there. That's the problem today. Maybe one one hundredth of one percent of women out there are good women who will care about a man.

You could probably find someone to fuck you, but the juice won't be worth the squeeze. You could get an STD, which would be the least severe of the possible consequences.

Yes, originally PUA was supposed to be a kind of "training wheels for nerds," that is, for the guys who were road-kill in the dating game, the guys who never got off the starting line. Many of the nerds in "The Game" were still virgins when they first joined the seduction community as adults. As the author says in the book, "Our parents and our friends had failed us. They had never given us the tools we needed to become fully effective social beings."

So, originally the "PUA community" was a set of on-line forums and real-life seminars geared toward teaching virgin nerd introverts how to get over their social anxiety and start meeting (and seducing) the opposite sex.

Over time, however, PUA started focusing on high "notch count" or "body count." Roosh V and his website Return of Kings was an example of this. (He has since quit the PUA community and found religion.)

Other people like Rollo Tomasi went in a different direction, turning PUA into a lifestyle of confident manhood. He calls it "positive masculinity." As he puts it, PUA "game" becomes the path to male re-empowerment. It becomes an antidote to "the negative, shameful and ridiculous archetypes that 60 years of feminization had convinced women and men of." "Positive masculinity" reinterprets masculinity as something positive, beneficial, and competent. He talks about how "game" can be developed for various walks of life: Married game, Divorced game, Christianized game, High school game, etc.

I think that the new "alpha male philosophy" (Andrew Tate, Fresh & Fit, etc.) probably springs from Tomasi and his "positive masculinity." "Alpha male philosophy" is about taking PUA "game" and applying it to your entire life. Living big, talking big, acting big, etc.

Of course, a lot of this "living big" is done for the approval of women, so in my opinion it all gets back to "pussy-begging." Meantime, with the new aggressive feminism and the MeToo movement, there are new legal issues to contend with when dealing with women. Andrew Tate seems to have run afoul of some issues of his own (though no one really knows what the hell was going on there).

But who knows. I haven't checked out the new "alpha male philosophy" in depth. A lot of it is being disseminated via podcasts that routinely run 1-2 hours, and you're supposed to listen to them daily. I don't have time for that.

I've seen some funny clips by Kevin Samuels and I thought his stuff seemed pretty good. But he recently died from a heart attack at the age of 53 while banging some gal he picked up. So maybe the lifestyle wasn't good for him.

Originally Posted by MGTOWLife

Of course, a lot of this "living big" is done for the approval of women, so in my opinion it all gets back to "pussy-begging." Meantime, with the new aggressive feminism and the MeToo movement, there are new legal issues to contend with when dealing with women. Andrew Tate seems to have run afoul of some issues of his own (though no one really knows what the hell was going on there).

That's my big problem with the "manosphere". Is that all of it is just turbo-simping.

Its the bluest blue-pill shit. It's all about worshipping pussy 24/7. Constantly change pussy, constantly work on being a "high value" ATM, constantly get the hottest body you can get by lifting heavy things.

Every single thing is about bending the knee to pussy, whether that's pretending to be stoic, so you never have any emotional response, or satisfying a shit test, or slurping down testosterone Pina coladas, it's all about being every bit the mimbo she wants.

A strong, silent, servant, who salivates at the idea of "masculinity" to change the oil in her car one-handed and glisten with oil and sweat. While she sits on the porch drinking a gin fizz and enjoying her slave in the fields, toiling away, to maybe think about her pussy which costs her nothing.

The entire RP/PUA people are just slave drivers. Push that working man to bust 60 hours for the slave master for a check, then another 60 hours for the slave master with a pussy.

Yay! Green pieces of paper and a dozen mushed up, pre-used oysters! Yay! Can I buy a blood diamond as a reward for her having that?

Makes me sick.

Originally Posted by Canadian Spartacus

Agreed.
The mgtow red pill brings both knowledge and freedom.

That just leaves the black pill.
Or is that just an incel thing?

Yeah, I think black pill is for incels.

In the past, incels used to be the thirsty, blue-pill guys that took PUA courses. And the courses usually helped them out.

But with the rise of the internet, incels got into evolutionary biology theories about how women can only be satisfied by 6-6-6 guys (6 feet tall, 6-pack abs, 6-figure income). Incels got so discouraged that they quit signing up for PUA courses and instead they now congregate on-line on forums to complain how the modern world doesn't allow them to get married and have children like their grandparents did.

So I guess that's the black pill: Thirsty for love and marriage and children and sex like the bluest of blue-pill simps, but frustrated by red-pill teachings about the hypergamous nature of women.

There was a recent hilarious thread about transmaxxing, which seems to be a new incel interest. Maybe that will help them out.

Link to transmaxxing thread: https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgto...95/#post196695

Originally Posted by MGTOWLife

Yeah, I think black pill is for incels.

In the past, incels used to be the thirsty, blue-pill guys that took PUA courses. And the courses usually helped them out.

But with the rise of the internet, incels got into evolutionary biology theories about how women can only be satisfied by 6-6-6 guys (6 feet tall, 6-pack abs, 6-figure income). Incels got so discouraged that they quit signing up for PUA courses and instead they now congregate on-line on forums to complain how the modern world doesn't allow them to get married and have children like their grandparents did.

So I guess that's the black pill: Thirsty for love and marriage and children and sex like the bluest of blue-pill simps, but frustrated by red-pill teachings about the hypergamous nature of women.

There was a recent hilarious thread about transmaxxing, which seems to be a new incel interest. Maybe that will help them out.

Link to transmaxxing thread: https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgto...95/#post196695

Thanks for the link, fascinating stuff. Lends some ammo to the "desperate weirdos trying to sneak into women's spaces" idea. I think a few movies were based on the "Let's get pussy by dressing as chicks and joining the all-women event/school"

Originally Posted by Montauk

Thanks for the link, fascinating stuff. Lends some ammo to the "desperate weirdos trying to sneak into women's spaces" idea. I think a few movies were based on the "Let's get pussy by dressing as chicks and joining the all-women event/school"

Originally Posted by MGTOWLife

Yeah, I think black pill is for incels.

In the past, incels used to be the thirsty, blue-pill guys that took PUA courses. And the courses usually helped them out.

But with the rise of the internet, incels got into evolutionary biology theories about how women can only be satisfied by 6-6-6 guys (6 feet tall, 6-pack abs, 6-figure income). Incels got so discouraged that they quit signing up for PUA courses and instead they now congregate on-line on forums to complain how the modern world doesn't allow them to get married and have children like their grandparents did.

So I guess that's the black pill: Thirsty for love and marriage and children and sex like the bluest of blue-pill simps, but frustrated by red-pill teachings about the hypergamous nature of women.

There was a recent hilarious thread about transmaxxing, which seems to be a new incel interest. Maybe that will help them out.

Link to transmaxxing thread: https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgto...95/#post196695

Brother, I have seen some weird shit.
But this transmaxing definitely takes the cake!

We are living in a world gone insane, and the inmates are officially running the asylum.

Non denominational, genderless supreme being, help us all.
Lol

Maybe I am over simplifying things but to me red pill means looking at the behavior of the gynocentric world as it is. And then leveraging that to your advantage. Mgtow to me means taking that next step of personal freedom as a man with that "red pill" knowledge. And black pill to me means looking at the world from a lens of 100% of cynicism without leaving room for personal hope.

Modern game has been called purple pill, blue pill and red pill.

But really game is really not only applied to women but also human interactions in general. Which is why game is often lumped into red pill knowledge. Like a job, social interactions, negotiations, understanding mechanisms of psy ops in media, corruption layers of government etc.

You can use game to leverage better pay, knowing when to avoid social pitfalls, when to bail a toxic job, or to avoid poor social circles.

PUAs indeed rebranded themselves to red pill and now towards "social coaches".

But the principles are still there that game is about understanding "social dynamics". Which is no surprise that RSD exists as an example.

As for Tate brothers while they both seek validation from men and women to an extent. They also are operating from a mindset of game where you have nothing to lose but everything to win. Which is diametrically opposed to black pill/incel concepts which in game is known as abundance mentality.

Operating from a frame of scarcity as a man is a dangerous mindset to have because you are limiting your mental strength to singular pathways. When those pathways can lead to many other and better avenues.

The Tate brothers could be classified as sigma males to a degree. However sigma males tend to avoid the limelight and prefer to be lone wolves.

The Tate brothers believe in brotherhood and that men need to network to survive a gynocentric world. So for that reason alone they are closer to red pill than most PUAs. Ironically a lot of PUAs when they came under attack not only rebranded but decided to circle the wagons to protect each other.

So on one hand the "manosphere" does indeed have a lot of infighting. But I have seen a lot of that same manosphere circle the wagons to support the Tate brothers, Julian of RSD, M of 33 Secrets, Rich Cooper,etc.

Fascinating to me to see the transformation of the manosphere the last ten years. But I think that transformation of men being more supportive of other men is due to a shift away from the PUA scene in the first place.

Surprise, surprise when you take women out of the picture and men are not competing with one another they can actually come together as groups and elevate themselves through improved social game and finances.

But anytime men are able to create such groups .gov is watching closely and trying to break these groups of men up with honeypots from three letter agencies.

An interesting tin foil hat theory I have heard is that a three letter agency started MGTOW to counter the idea of feminism which was started by another three letter agency to enslave men. Fascinating to think about.

Originally Posted by Azure Nomad

Maybe I am over simplifying things but to me red pill means looking at the behavior of the gynocentric world as it is an leveraging that to your advantage. Mgtow to me means taking that next step of personal freedom as a man with that "red pill" knowledge". And black pill to me means looking at the world from a lens of 100% of cynicism without leaving room for personal hope.

Hey Azure,

You don’t know me, you’re about to

I may be calling an air strike on myself by saying this:

I was just thinking about it, why do we really need labels? And this goes for everyone here. I think labels are for OTHERS to see, not for us OR among us to discuss what/who we are. And OTHERS will label us as THEY want.

NOW, if we go thru all the empirical posts here, one common theme that emerges,

“First rule of the fight club is to not talk about the fight club!”

To make it simpler, you don’t tell ANYONE who or what you are (Red Pilled, MGTOW, etc.) Your mannerisms and actions are evident enough!

My point is, why do we even need to brainstorm or intellectualize the labels AND what we are. On this board, we ALL know what we are. We do not give a flying fuck about women, except for sometimes shooting a steamy load into their minge nonsensically. We have ALL been there, done that!

Why not let everyone else think what they think about us, as we all know we can’t do shit about it anyways (what they think).

I have been following this thread and wasn’t able to make sense of why (not the what) we are discussing this and this train of thought keeps popping up all the time all over this board. It’s a different thing to make a trespasser or a troll understand what we are. That’s why we have the ‘non member and opposing views’ section.

Emotional connection with women is POISON. That’s enough for the lurkers to know, apart from all the testimonials that are conspicuous all over this website!

2 cents spent!

Originally Posted by WanderLuster

Hey Azure,

You don’t know me, you’re about to

I may be calling an air strike on myself by saying this:

I was just thinking about it, why do we really need labels? And this goes for everyone here. I think labels are for OTHERS to see, not for us OR among us to discuss what/who we are. And OTHERS will label us as THEY want.

NOW, if we go thru all the empirical posts here, one common theme that emerges,

“First rule of the fight club is to not talk about the fight club!”

To make it simpler, you don’t tell ANYONE who or what you are (Red Pilled, MGTOW, etc.) Your mannerisms and actions are evident enough!

My point is, why do we even need to brainstorm or intellectualize the labels AND what we are. On this board, we ALL know what we are. We do not give a flying fuck about women, except for sometimes shooting a steamy load into their minge nonsensically. We have ALL been there, done that!

Why not let everyone else think what they think about us, as we all know we can’t do shit about it anyways (what they think).

I have been following this thread and wasn’t able to make sense of why (not the what) we are discussing this and this train of thought keeps popping up all the time all over this board. It’s a different thing to make a trespasser or a troll understand what we are. That’s why we have the ‘non member and opposing views’ section.

Emotional connection with women is POISON. That’s enough for the lurkers to know, apart from all the testimonials that are conspicuous all over this website!

2 cents spent!

Nacho on the old mgtow forums didn't like the redpill concept or mgtow labels. And yes there are many that live a mgtow lifestyle and do not call or consider themselves mgtow! It is still an interesting discussion to have.

I guess you can call me a ghost but I have been involved with game too when I was younger and often I also have just been a lone wolf most of life. But in social interactions I can thrive as well so I can't really define even myself.

So it really comes down to a lot of shades of gray.

@Azure Nomad,

Thanks for the good background info on the world of the modern "social coaches." Good stuff. I'll have to check out videos and history on some of the names you mentioned.

Originally Posted by Azure Nomad

But really game is really not only applied to women but also human interactions in general. Which is why game is often lumped into red pill knowledge. Like a job, social interactions, negotiations, understanding mechanisms of psy ops in media, corruption layers of government etc.

You can use game to leverage better pay, knowing when to avoid social pitfalls, when to bail a toxic job, or to avoid poor social circles.

PUAs indeed rebranded themselves to red pill and now towards "social coaches".

But the principles are still there that game is about understanding "social dynamics".

I agree. A lot of "game" is oriented toward basic self-improvement and working on self-confidence. And the portion of "game" that is oriented toward women can be used either for picking women up (PUA) or for spotting their tricks, dodging them, and neutralizing them (MGTOW). So there's a lot of crossover there.

Even among MGTOW, not everyone wants to go monk or ghost or whatever. Plenty of MGTOW guys want to avoid women but also still be effective and successful in the world. Red pill/PUA social coaching (alpha male philosophy) is probably the best place to learn how to do that right now.

Because there sure isn't much available for men on the mainstream self-help market. Nowadays, mainstream self-help advice for men simply tells men to get in touch with their feelings and explore their feminine side. And to be good allies for feminists. IOW, it tries to turn men into props for the gynocentric world order.

Originally Posted by Azure Nomad

An interesting tin foil hat theory I have heard is that a three letter agency started MGTOW to counter the idea of feminism which was started by another three letter agency to enslave men. Fascinating to think about.

I would argue that MGTOW springs from the idea of rugged individualism, a type of male lore that goes way back. But if it was cooked up in a government lab, that's cool too. A good idea is a good idea, no matter where it comes from.

Originally Posted by MGTOWFOREVER

This is where I get confused. I thought you are MGTOW once you take "the red pill" cause you see "the blue pill" is nothing but a reality of lies and bullshit.

I think it was that way originally, where red pill was equivalent to MGTOW. But, like many ideas, meanings evolve, get hijacked, repurposed, watered down, etc. New people arrive on the scene who weren't there in the beginning and, before you know it, we're treating Labor Day as National BBQ Day.

I'm sensitive to this, and you may have seen me make reference here and there to the erosion of what it means to be MGTOW, and as evidenced by a few fellows who come here thinking all they need to say is that they are red pill. All that says to me is that they know a little something more than they did before about the ways of women. And that's fine, but it's not enough to say that anymore to be here. Some are still blue pill with some red pill awareness. So we call them purple pill.

Even the term MGTOW gets polluted from time to time, based on comments from those I have banned.

If the term "red pill" has come to loosely mean having any undefined amount of red pill awareness of women, then I could argue that every heterosexually married man alive is red pill because he HAS to know in the caverns of his mind about the bullshit ways of the woman he tolerates, even if he succumbs to it and defends his choice to others. He interacts with her daily, he knows her ways and makes adjustments to himself accordingly. That's red pill knowledge right there to which he is adjusting. He merely accepts his situation until some future point when he doesn't accept it. And when that time comes, if it does, those are the guys who then start saying out loud they are red pill and who come to us saying that, and the rest of us nod and smile, etc. But they had red pill awareness all along. They had merely crossed a threshold.

If I look at it that way, the term red pill doesn't mean a whole lot to me. What makes the difference to me is what way you go with it.

Originally Posted by Unboxxed

[...] If the term "red pill" has come to loosely mean having any undefined amount of red pill awareness of women, then I could argue that every heterosexually married man alive is red pill because he HAS to know in the caverns of his mind about the bullshit ways of the woman he tolerates, even if he succumbs to it and defends his choice to others. He interacts with her daily, he knows her ways and makes adjustments to himself accordingly. [...]

Great point! A situation like that waters down the "red pill" concept to practically nothing.

When I was married, I was very aware of my wives' petty rip-offs. But I chalked it up to harmless ditziness and figured it was compensated by the positive aspects of marriage. It wasn't until those problems snowballed into pure venom and toxicity (twice!) that I really questioned my whole world view.

So I agree, MGTOW has to be something much more active than just red-pill awareness.

Originally Posted by MGTOWLife

@Azure Nomad,

Thanks for the good background info on the world of the modern "social coaches." Good stuff. I'll have to check out videos and history on some of the names you mentioned.


I agree. A lot of "game" is oriented toward basic self-improvement and working on self-confidence. And the portion of "game" that is oriented toward women can be used either for picking women up (PUA) or for spotting their tricks, dodging them, and neutralizing them (MGTOW). So there's a lot of crossover there.

Even among MGTOW, not everyone wants to go monk or ghost or whatever. Plenty of MGTOW guys want to avoid women but also still be effective and successful in the world. Red pill/PUA social coaching (alpha male philosophy) is probably the best place to learn how to do that right now.

Because there sure isn't much available for men on the mainstream self-help market. Nowadays, mainstream self-help advice for men simply tells men to get in touch with their feelings and explore their feminine side. And to be good allies for feminists. IOW, it tries to turn men into props for the gynocentric world order.


I would argue that MGTOW springs from the idea of rugged individualism, a type of male lore that goes way back. But if it was cooked up in a government lab, that's cool too. A good idea is a good idea, no matter where it comes from.

Rugged individualism is probably the most concise way to explain men going their own way. Even Roosh V had his own personal epiphany as a man when he put way the chase and decided to focus on his personal self.