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  1. #21
    Senior Member stanmsl's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    Started wearing a face mask when shopping as I'm now required to no big deal, seriously what the problem ? !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post
    The dictations of wearing a mask and practicing "social distancing" is not for the government to decide. That is for the individual to decide..
    No different to any other of the countless safety laws you have to follow. Nothing to do with "freedom" or "politics" but reducing the odds of you passing on that virus to someone else who could be killed off by it. Keeping this mess going on far longer than it ever needs to. Also reducing the odds of it mutating into a far more deadly form. Virus don't care what you think.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    but for one Id like to see comparative results after doing even 10 minutes strenuous exercise. Not all of us are lucky enough to have jobs where we can walk around without exerting ourselves.
    I agree but this would only apply to a small percentage of the population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred View Post
    The greatest lesson forgotten by today's population is to suspect anything done by the government.
    Automatically doing the exact opposite of what the government says is not "thinking for yourself", "common sense" or being "enlightened".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post
    Politicians, bureaucrats, and basically anyone that wants to take away your individual freedoms away
    I'm not required by law to do several years military service. I'm free to reject organized religion and the marriage, mortgage, kids treadmill. I have travelled to nearly half the countries in the world. I have a life of freedom that my ancestors could only have dreamed of. Even today the simple act of having 2 days off work a week and going for a beer is something a significant proportion of the worlds population can't do.

    If you think that wearing a mask and standing 2 meters away from someone when buying food is "loss of freedom" you need a serious reality check.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Here are some figures I put together a few days ago....UK Deaths 46,201
    Figure count infections and deaths, they don't count the people who didn't die due to the preventative measures that were put in place. Which of course is very difficult to calculate. The paradox is that the more deaths get prevented the more the critics can say "look we crashed the economy for only X thousand deaths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post
    Sheep will always be sheep and you can't make a sheep into a wolf.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    We are being controlled, manipulated and used as guinea pigs in some mad experiment.
    I'd argue that the real "sheep" in our society are people who are
    * Addicted to substances
    * Binge watch TV
    * Social media addicts
    * Porn addicts
    * Video game addicts
    * Junk food addicts / Overweight people
    * Keeping up with the Joneses / In heavy debt.

    Most people these days fall into at least one of the above groups. We don't need some big evil government conspiracy to control and subdue the population when they are more than capable of doing it to themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred View Post
    the government. If it is not faulty by incompetence, then its detrimental to you by design.
    Standard conspiracy theory contradiction. On one hand they have a highly complex plan to shape and control society but on the other so stupid and incompetent it gets exposed by random YouTube videos and Facebook memes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred View Post
    Please notice that people are blindly trusting the "institutions" and ignoring their common sense and intelligence.
    "Common sense" is subject to inbuilt human biases and is a poor way of making decisions. We trust experts with more knowledge than us all the time. Who would you like to fix your car, a qualified mechanic or some random person who has watched a few YouTube videos ? As for common sense, the number of people who have posted obviously fake cures on my newsfeed says it all.

    Simple observation......people who complain loudest about trusting the institutions and shouting "sheepie" are the exact same people who believe, like and share some random Facebook meme or YouTube video without the most basic of fact checking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred View Post
    We are going to see consequences of this stupidity in a short amount of time.
    We already are, countless of excess deaths due to governments (UK here) useless response, one of the longest first case to lockdown times in the world. Failure to properly enforce lockdown, inconsistent laws/rules. Then people's refusal to follow simple requests, the rest of Europe is laughing at us and for good reason.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
    Deaths per million population...USA 497, NEW ZEALAND 4
    USA is in this mess due to not listening to experts on both a government and a personal level. This individualist mindset simply does not work in a pandemic. The sheer volume of stupidity from that country is mind-blowing and sad at the same time. Unfortunately it's only getting worse as millions of people have already rejected a vaccine before it even exists.

    Been following this channel for a while, mainly focused on number crunching, well worth looking at.

    Men are becoming MGTOW by the millions, most without ever having heard the term. They are simply doing what all living organisms finding themselves in a toxic environment do. They adapt to it or remove themselves from it. Females are not liking either the adaptations or the removal.

    FACEBOOK PAGE, TWITTER FEED

  2. #22
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    No different to any other of the countless safety laws you have to follow. Nothing to do with "freedom" or "politics" but reducing the odds of you passing on that virus to someone else who could be killed off by it. Keeping this mess going on far longer than it ever needs to. Also reducing the odds of it mutating into a far more deadly form. Virus don't care what you think.....

    This individualist mindset simply does not work in a pandemic.
    Its not about the capability of virus. It can be ebola virus with 60% kill rate. While I agree with you that individualist mindset doesnt work in pandemic, I will go on to say that individualist mindset doesnt work in a great many cases, certainly not in long term.

    That being said, I am also against "big" government, not all governments, just big federal ones. A closed group of people (say >300k, quoting this figure to give an idea what I am considering a "group") should have an autonomy to decide how they run their business, as long as they dont harm other groups in their process. If they decide they dont want to wear masks, then a government of 300 million people shouldnt intervene.

    Ofc, should they choose to not wear masks, other groups should be free to ostracize them. It will create a sort of free market thing at group level and NOT individual level. The group then have to decide what is they want more (or less), in-group business (and pandemic effects) or out-group business and cooperation.

    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    I'd argue that the real "sheep" in our society are people who are
    * Addicted to substances
    * Binge watch TV
    * Social media addicts
    * Porn addicts
    * Video game addicts
    * Junk food addicts / Overweight people
    * Keeping up with the Joneses / In heavy debt.

    Most people these days fall into at least one of the above groups. We don't need some big evil government conspiracy to control and subdue the population when they are more than capable of doing it to themselves.
    Completely agree there. I always say that by being stupid and letting our emotions get the better of us, allow others to take advantage. And government takes advantage of one thing which, according to my opinion, you missed in that list. Government takes advantage by not allowing small groups to have autonomy. And the missing item in the list is :

    - not having access to firearms and/or training to use them and/or being in a militia to defend the group

    I say this because I believe "freedom" is something which is "given", by someone superior to someone inferior. I like the word "sovereignty" over this. Its when a group of people ASSERT their freedom by threat of violence. It all comes down to violence in the end, your capability and willingness to project violence. MGTOW exists in this world because men collectively failed to defend themselves against the cultural propaganda against them.

    If you have the ability to project great violence, and willingness to do it when threatened, but choose not do it when not in threat, you are peaceful. If you dont have the ability and/or willingness, you are being "harmless", or a "sheep".

    I can say more about all this, but I cant, my hands are tied on this forum. Like when I say a group should be allowed to run their business as long as they dont harm others, I have a very specific definition (and very elaborate, its NOT simple or trivial) of what is called not doing harm. And that link is merely a summary, each of the points are explained in great deal in their own articles.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  3. #23
    Senior Member Manfred's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    Started wearing a face mask when shopping as I'm now required to no big deal, seriously what the problem ? !!!
    No problem. I am inherently libertarian, thus you do what you want and i have no problem or will even say anything - until it starts messing with the liberty of others.

    But in my case I started wearing masks BEFORE IT WAS REQUIRED. Because my information was contrary to official guidelines, and even when officially masks where "dangerous" and people wearing them were called paranoid. Remember that time?



    "The greatest lesson forgotten by today's population is to suspect anything done by the government."
    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    Automatically doing the exact opposite of what the government says is not "thinking for yourself", "common sense" or being "enlightened".
    "Suspect" does not mean "do the opposite". When law enforcement talks about a "suspect of commiting a crime" they do not say "someone that would never do the crime".
    My friends, words have meaning, and they convey an idea. To misrepresent words is not an argument.

    As you said, "thinking for yourself", using "common sense" or being "enlightened" is require in most situations in life.
    But it is also said that "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me".
    One has to look at the history of governments fooling the population. In the old days people were naturally suspicious of power, because they had memory.

    Now memory is short. Even with videos we forget. How did we forget the flip-flop arround using masks?

    The reasoning i used still stands. How did governments changed theirs? Answers bellow to you next quote.

    "the government. If it is not faulty by incompetence, then its detrimental to you by design."
    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    Standard conspiracy theory contradiction. On one hand they have a highly complex plan to shape and control society but on the other so stupid and incompetent it gets exposed by random YouTube videos and Facebook memes.
    Negative. The word "conspiracy theory" was a psyops developed to label doubts about the official Kennedy assassination. Under that label you override critical analysis and accept bullets defy the rules of physics.

    What i am saying is that the government's first concern is to avoid public unrest. The second is to protect the economy. The third is to get elected next time. And last comes public welfare.

    The issue with masks is that there was not enough masks in the market for the population, thus they said masks were dangerous. Notice they did not say "masks are useless", a lie also but would not be strong enough to avoid people from buying or making their own masks.

    Learn about the Czek Republic, and how the population took matters in their own hands and in three days had masks for everyone: https://news.yahoo.com/stitch-time-c...205213804.html

    You have to seek out the real news, because mainstream medias says the government ordered them to. In fact it was an popular uprising resulting from experts on social media enlightening people, when government said the opposite. The government order to make masks came after the fact (public unrest, remember).

    Any country could do that, why was it not done? Because they do not want free masks, they want comercial masks, thus people had to wait for the industry to be ready to supply them (the economy, remember?)

    So, social media and YouTube videos can be full of shit, or be the absolute truth.
    It is up to you to decide and act accordingly to safeguard your interests.
    Do you surrender your critical reasoning to the goverment?


    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    "Common sense" is subject to inbuilt human biases and is a poor way of making decisions. We trust experts with more knowledge than us all the time. Who would you like to fix your car, a qualified mechanic or some random person who has watched a few YouTube videos ? As for common sense, the number of people who have posted obviously fake cures on my newsfeed says it all.
    First, a person must know two things: what he knows and what he doesn't know.
    "Common sense" is not knowing it all, but to be able to operate even when you donk know things.
    One does not automatically defer to "experts" all the times and circumstances.

    "Common sense" is when i dont understand mechanics and the "qualified mechanic" starts changing his story or overcharging. That is when you change the mechanic or start learning about it yourself on those random youtube videos.
    "Common sense" is basic things like not trusting people that have fooled you before, or people that dont have your interests in mind.

    "Common sense" is thinking a mask should be of some use against a respiratory virus. "Common sense" is noticing health works use masks as protection. "Common sense" is realizing that health works have no magical knowledge about using face masks that you cannot get.
    "Common sense" is searching scientific papers about the issue and learning from the source.
    "Common sense" is them to seek the exact training videos used by the health works to learn the proper procedures for donning and removing PPE.

    All this while government says you should not wear masks.

    Do people that trusted them get an egg on their face when the government changes tune?
    Maybe they are so used to it that it doesnt even registers...

  4. #24
    Senior Member Manfred's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    From memory lane, in times when the BBC had actually some resemblance of a public service:



    For those in a hurry, jump to 4:30 and contemplate official policies at their best (when they do nothing), instead of their worst (when they act against your interests).

  5. #25
    Senior Member Manfred's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    Deaths per million population...USA 497, NEW ZEALAND 4
    USA is in this mess due to not listening to experts on both a government and a personal level. This individualist mindset simply does not work in a pandemic. The sheer volume of stupidity from that country is mind-blowing and sad at the same time. Unfortunately it's only getting worse as millions of people have already rejected a vaccine before it even exists.
    From the outside of the US I can only say the biggest stupidity I see is the politicization of everything to a level of insanity, a mainstream media that is beyond corrupt and political, and a president that is being blocked at every possible way imaginable.

    The initial response of the Trump administration was the right one: to isolate the country from flights out of the affected areas. That was blocked and Trump called "racist".
    Outside that I have no idea what was right or wrong. I only know that in such environment you cannot blame the government.

    I dont see individualism as the problem. Instead I see political group thinking as the major one.

  6. #26
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred View Post
    From the outside of the US I can only say the biggest stupidity I see is the politicization of everything to a level of insanity, a mainstream media that is beyond corrupt and political, and a president that is being blocked at every possible way imaginable.

    The initial response of the Trump administration was the right one: to isolate the country from flights out of the affected areas. That was blocked and Trump called "racist".
    Outside that I have no idea what was right or wrong. I only know that in such environment you cannot blame the government.

    I dont see individualism as the problem. Instead I see political group thinking as the major one.
    I dont think political group think can be avoided. Every group of people, be it by location, race, religion or anything, will have some set of beliefs of what and how things should get done.

    The problem starts when one such group starts to impose its thinking and way of life on another group, and that is exactly what happens all the time in big democracy. This saying is conveys my point:

    Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch.
    Its just that in the case of what I said, the "wolf" and "sheep" are sufficiently large groups of people and not isolated individuals.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  7. #27
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    I thought only mafia face masks deprive you of oxygen?

    We are lawfully exiled by the alterations and changes made to this social compact called government, its body politic now cancerous and destructive to its own ends.

    A man is on his own, always was, always will be.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Manfred's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    I want to expand my analysis of the pandemic situation, because if people dont see this as a prime example of everything wrong with governments, then we are doomed.

    I first knew of the Wuhan virus by alt-media (zerohedge) in January. Governments knew of this in December but said nothing, prepared nothing, and did nothing.

    Since February it was apparent that the virus was highly contagious, airborne, and dangerous (at the time using the unofficial numbers from the Chinese we could have up to 10% mortality rate from the infected). A case study showed that a contagious person entered a bus, was in there 30 minutes, infected 6 other persons during that time and some others AFTER he left. That article is still available in zerohedge. The scientific paper behind it recommends the use of facemasks in public transportation.

    Hilariously, at that time governments where alleging that it was still unknown how the virus propagated. Masks where said to be unnecessary and even dangerous according to the WHO:




    By that time there was a lot of information about medications used with Coronavirus. There was some talk about AIDS retroviral medication working, and Hidroxicloroquine. The Chinese were very keen in using HCQ. At the same time there was a paper in India claiming the HIV gene sequences were present in the Coronavirus, and that it was unlikely that this would happen naturally. That study was recalled, as many others claiming something was fishy about the virus.

    Since Wuhan had the only level 4 biolab in China, with facilities at less than 100 m of the market were allegedly it started, it is quite an unrelated coincidence...
    Zerohedge had an article based on the official webpage of the Wuhan lab, with job offering to study "bat coronavirus", and that got them banned from Twitter. Yes, it constitutes conspiracy theory to publish information from the official web page proving that a level 4 biolab was working with coronavirus in the same town the virus appeared. Especially if they denied working with coronavirus.

    Nothing to see here, carry on, dont think, consume and obey.

    So, when SHTF and countries start confining citizens "to flatten the curve", there was plenty of information on how to fight this virus:
    - Use masks in confined public spaces to avoid cloud droplets from infected people, and filter contaminated air of PM2.5 and PM0.3 virus carrying particles.
    - Wash hands and disinfect surfaces in public spaces.
    - Restrain travelling to the limit you can control and test people coming to your country.
    - Use HCQ as the most effective medicine available to treat the infection.

    Yet for political reasons nothing like that was done. The traveling restrictions were no imposed out of "racism" hysteria (that didnt stop China from closing flights from wherever they wanted) and due to the Schengen Agreement in Europe.

    Governments only act after it becomes clear that they should have acted before, just like that "Yes prime-minister" video above.

    Somehow the HCQ became a bogeyman after Trump stated that it was a promising medication. I suspect that it being a cheap and a patent-expired medicine has more to do about it. And if it can be used as prophylactic as claimed, then there would be no use for a vaccine, would it? That would be a loss of billions for pharmaceutical industries.

    I live in a Island without cases of COVID. The way that happened was: flights were restricted during the high of the pandemic and now all people flying are tested. I got tested myself last week after travelling, I had to be isolated in my house for ONE day until I got the test result by SMS, and just finished another mandatory test 7 days after the first one.

    In other Islands they tracked individual cases, and tested everyone that contacted with these people. That managed to contain cases to a manageable number. We still had a stupid lockdown, and the whole process was an incompetent mess. But since it was managed locally, we got independent testing and regional structures acting far more effectively than the national government. Hell, the local authorities even got a local airline plane to get supplies in China; and they didnt even removed the chairs... That is working with what you got and solving problems autonomously.

    And the conclusion is: this situation can only be solved by local teams tracking contacts and isolating cases. This cannot be centrally and bureaucratically managed, but with local authorities with resources and autonomy to act with rational and scientific guidelines.

    THAT explains what is happening in big countries like the US, Brasil and India. They have big governments, slow and ineffective, and are dependent on local authorities that are either politically motivated to do nothing (the US and Brasil) or have no resources to do much considering the size of the population (India and Brasil).

    In some time in the future, when the HCQ scandal goes public (depending on any freedom still existing) and the policies are independently evaluated, I bet people will forget the magnitude of the crimes committed against life and property by incompetency and politics. And they will keep trusting government and media...

  9. #29
    Senior Member Manfred's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    I dont think political group think can be avoided. Every group of people, be it by location, race, religion or anything, will have some set of beliefs of what and how things should get done.

    The problem starts when one such group starts to impose its thinking and way of life on another group, and that is exactly what happens all the time in big democracy.
    Agreed. People will have their groups and their shared ideas, and many will want all to conform to their thinking. But at what price?

    There should be a basic level of respect for people and institutions. There should be personal honor in the fulfillment of oficial duties delegated to one.

    It should not be possible for justice officials to take political stands that go against the law without consequences. It should not be possible for authorities at local or state level to undermine national policies out of political reasons.

    These things are precedents that will paralise countries forever, what stops the other side to the the same if they lose elections? There is no future for democracy after this.

    Yes, democracy is a bad system. Or as it said:

    "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." ― Winston S. Churchill

  10. #30
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred View Post
    Agreed. People will have their groups and their shared ideas, and many will want all to conform to their thinking. But at what price?

    There should be a basic level of respect for people and institutions. There should be personal honor in the fulfillment of oficial duties delegated to one.

    It should not be possible for justice officials to take political stands that go against the law without consequences. It should not be possible for authorities at local or state level to undermine national policies out of political reasons.

    These things are precedents that will paralise countries forever, what stops the other side to the the same if they lose elections? There is no future for democracy after this.

    Yes, democracy is a bad system. Or as it said:

    "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." ― Winston S. Churchill
    There "should" be many things, but the evidence is there to the contrary. Different kind of people have widely different ways of life and opinions of good and bad, to the point of being entirely opposite.

    The better government system than a BIG (300 million) democracy is no government at 300 million level and small democracies at 300,000 level, with own militias and autonomy. And they interact with each much the same way nations interact with each other. And form military alliances if needed.

    If you try to govern a large diverse group of people (diverse in terms of opinions), you WILL get that paralysis you talk about, regardless of if its democracy or monarchy or fascism or capitalism or communism or whatever else, there is no escaping from it. The democracy at small level is wonderful, say electing the sheriff of a county in US. That is GOOD, very good and works.

    Let me give you a fine example of difference of opinion. You talk about personal honor in fulfillment of official duties. Well, a very LARGE number of Indians will completely disagree, and will be royally pissed off if they are made to do the work they are assigned to. They find it VERY OKAY to do 30-50% of the work. If you do 100% of the work, you are a retarded person in their books who doesnt know how the world works. And dont think that those people who are disagreeing are illiterate fools. They are there at every level of education, including but not limited to multiple PhDs or masters. The smarter you are in avoiding work (or at corruption), the more STATUS you get within your family. It is considered somewhat of an alpha trait.

    Do note that I myself agree with your opinion, and that above difference is one of the major reasons I dont get along with lots of people in real life, and over time I have realized, there is absolutely no solution. If any of those people and me work in a team, one or both is going to be pissed, and it will keep escalating until we both decide to go our separate ways, which is exactly I said about diverse groups of people.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  11. #31
    Senior Member Manfred's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post

    Do note that I myself agree with your opinion, and that above difference is one of the major reasons I dont get along with lots of people in real life, and over time I have realized, there is absolutely no solution. If any of those people and me work in a team, one or both is going to be pissed, and it will keep escalating until we both decide to go our separate ways, which is exactly I said about diverse groups of people.
    I understand your point, my own people are intrinsically anarchists and prone to corruption.

    But there is something else going on, something that never happened before. I think it is an "information overload". Never before people had access to so much information, so many and diverse opinions, and most of it contradictory. This erodes their sense of reality and objective truth. All becomes subjective.

    It becomes easy in such conditions to disseminate completly false stories when you have the resources to do it. This is so much the case the people now use frequently the term "narrative" instead of "the truth" . We no longer have descriptions of events, but interpretations of the events.

    If democracy was already a dificult proposition, now is close to impossible to maintain. We are seeing it evaporate before our eyes. We are not heading to any utopia (comunist or anything else) but rather to a distopia.

    I dont really see it as bad, this society is unhealthy and self-destructive. So, a little bit (or a lot) of destruction might be the right (and only) medicine.

    But a lot of pain is going to happen soon. I feel for that.

  12. #32
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred View Post
    But there is something else going on, something that never happened before. I think it is an "information overload". Never before people had access to so much information, so many and diverse opinions, and most of it contradictory. This erodes their sense of reality and objective truth. All becomes subjective.

    It becomes easy in such conditions to disseminate completly false stories when you have the resources to do it. This is so much the case the people now use frequently the term "narrative" instead of "the truth" . We no longer have descriptions of events, but interpretations of the events.
    Very true ! There is a LOT of information out there. And people are exposed to concepts which is often way above their league of understanding. I mean how many people in a regular antifa group are educated on various economic policies and government systems, along with their long term effects ?

    There are lots of things around us, both physical and conceptual, which are COMPLEX, very very complex. There is no easy or simple way to understand them. We simplify them in our heads just to get by in our lives.

    It may sound harsh, but a large chunk of people arent capable (as in intelligent) enough to understand and apply complex concepts and techniques. And then there are people who are intelligent, but not trained to do so because of their circumstances and choices in their day to day lives. And lastly, there are people who are both intelligent AND trained enough, but will choose to not apply them or apply them for destructive intents.

    So I think its very natural, that when such a large number of people are exposed to the amount and type of information which they are not equipped to process rationally, then they will resort to irrational processing: emotions, biases, fictions, wishful thinking, etc. And this will give rise to "cults", political groups which are incompatible with each other, resulting in an unstable soup of a society which you are pointing out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred View Post
    I dont really see it as bad, this society is unhealthy and self-destructive. So, a little bit (or a lot) of destruction might be the right (and only) medicine.

    But a lot of pain is going to happen soon. I feel for that.
    This has become such a point of conflict between too many people that nowadays I dont say it this simply, because everyone starts interpreting in whatever way they want. Some people expect a violent civil war or revolution with bullets in the air and blood on the streets, and on other hand we got people who believe that absolutely NOTHING will happen and we will go on forever stuck in a state of limbo.

    I take somewhat middle ground here, I believe the destruction/pain you talk of is actually happening, we are already there, but its happening and increasing GRADUALLY. Today its very so slightly worse than yesterday, and tomorrow will be slightly worse than today. And we will all be frogs in boiling water. And to those who think that we arent in a bad spot... there are many arguments to be made to support it, and I will present them if asked.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  13. #33
    Senior Member Manfred's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post

    There are lots of things around us, both physical and conceptual, which are COMPLEX, very very complex. There is no easy or simple way to understand them. We simplify them in our heads just to get by in our lives.
    Its funny that you say that, because according to fractal theory chaos is just an organization that is to complex to the human mind.
    So, depending on every person's level of knowledge, they can see the world as chaos. To get order and peace of mind people resort to religious thinking, and that is using beleif systems instead of rational thinking.


    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    Some people expect a violent civil war or revolution with bullets in the air and blood on the streets, and on other hand we got people who believe that absolutely NOTHING will happen and we will go on forever stuck in a state of limbo.

    I take somewhat middle ground here, I believe the destruction/pain you talk of is actually happening, we are already there, but its happening and increasing GRADUALLY.
    Arguments can be made towards the gradual decline. It has been happening since 2000, especially due to the energy problem and peak oil. Some think this theory was discredited, but I disagree: the theory is as valid as ever, we only included new sources of oil to get a small respite.

    But there is something to say about the decline of complex systems. The interdependence of the multiple parts of the system makes it extremely fragile. The fact that there is intelligence directing the system actually makes it worst, because that inteligence direct resources out of the strong parts to support the fragile parts.
    In that sense many things that still work will be burdened to support what doesnt work, until nothing works.

    Some shifts can happen that would change things: like wars or diseases. These could change mindsets if they are hard enough.

    I am not talking this covid thing. This is nothing as serious as initially feared. The mortality rate is very low (nothing similar to the Spanish Flu). With 700k deaths worldwide, covid has killed less people than the Rwanda genocide, that in 3 months resulted in 800k deaths.

    People are just to used to safety and a cushioned world, demanding that big daddy government keep them safe. Nature or human nature can show us that life is unpredictable and dangerous, that ultimately we must stand in our own feet.

  14. #34

    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    Started wearing a face mask when shopping as I'm now required to no big deal, seriously what the problem ? !!!


    Speaking solely for myself, I don't have a problem with people wearing face masks. I take a libertarian stance on that where people can do what they want as long as it doesn't affect me. I've been to countries where you'd see many of it's citizens wearing masks voluntarily. My problem exists with the government "mandating" you HAVE to wear them. That is none of their business.



    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    No different to any other of the countless safety laws you have to follow. Nothing to do with "freedom" or "politics" but reducing the odds of you passing on that virus to someone else who could be killed off by it. Keeping this mess going on far longer than it ever needs to. Also reducing the odds of it mutating into a far more deadly form. Virus don't care what you think.....


    Quite different actually. There has been no peer-reviewed study that is credible that says these masks will stop a virus. This has been politicized from the very beginning by leftist propaganda and dishonest media. Wearing the face masks is just the tip of the iceberg and that is the superficial issue. They are instituting a framework to restrict movement of a populace, registering people on lists as "COVID-19" positive, and producing media hit pieces on anyone that dares question their narrative.

    At the most basic level, it is none of their business in looking out for my safety.


    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    Automatically doing the exact opposite of what the government says is not "thinking for yourself", "common sense" or being "enlightened".


    Depends on what the government is saying. "Doing the exact opposite of what the government says" is sometimes exactly what you should do. I do agree that you are not "enlightened" solely just because you are being rebellious. True enlightenment is putting all the information on the table and drawing your own conclusions based on the information provided.


    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    I'm not required by law to do several years military service. I'm free to reject organized religion and the marriage, mortgage, kids treadmill. I have travelled to nearly half the countries in the world. I have a life of freedom that my ancestors could only have dreamed of. Even today the simple act of having 2 days off work a week and going for a beer is something a significant proportion of the worlds population can't do.


    Quite true. Things have not gone that far yet but give them time and they will. I'm not conflating wearing masks with blatant fascist polices like the above mentioned. With that being said, it's the "slow creep" of government overreach. The mandating of face masks is just the start and really just a "smoke screen" from what's really going on. What comes next? The mandating of latex gloves everywhere you go? Am I going to have to get "permission" from my district's governor to go to the grocery store because they're "at capacity"? At what point does the general populace draw the line?


    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    If you think that wearing a mask and standing 2 meters away from someone when buying food is "loss of freedom" you need a serious reality check.


    I would argue that the people who dismiss dissent over wearing a mask as "not that bad" or "you're just doing your civic duty" are the one's that need the reality check. People who just go along with it and stick their heads in the sand while the government overreaches by taking your "seemingly benign" freedoms away are going to be in for a rude awakening.


    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    I'd argue that the real "sheep" in our society are people who are
    * Addicted to substances
    * Binge watch TV
    * Social media addicts
    * Porn addicts
    * Video game addicts
    * Junk food addicts / Overweight people
    * Keeping up with the Joneses / In heavy debt.
    I 100% agree.
    In the future there will be robots.

  15. #35

    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post

    Let me give you a fine example of difference of opinion. You talk about personal honor in fulfillment of official duties. Well, a very LARGE number of Indians will completely disagree, and will be royally pissed off if they are made to do the work they are assigned to. They find it VERY OKAY to do 30-50% of the work. If you do 100% of the work, you are a retarded person in their books who doesnt know how the world works. And dont think that those people who are disagreeing are illiterate fools. They are there at every level of education, including but not limited to multiple PhDs or masters. The smarter you are in avoiding work (or at corruption), the more STATUS you get within your family. It is considered somewhat of an alpha trait.
    Those "very LARGE number of Indians" are men after my own heart. Doing work just for the sake of doing work is a fool's errand. If you find some "pride" from doing government-mandated work that you receive little to no benefit, I would challenge you to reevaluate your priorities.

    I can't remember if I said it in this post or another. At the end of the day, there are either sheep or wolves. If you think that working just for the sake of working is "doing your civic duty", that's fine I suppose. You are just a sheep and that's okay. The world needs slaves and I'm personally glad there are those willing to serve. It allows the limelight to remain on the sheeple which allows me to pursue my interests.
    In the future there will be robots.

  16. #36
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post
    Those "very LARGE number of Indians" are men after my own heart. Doing work just for the sake of doing work is a fool's errand. If you find some "pride" from doing government-mandated work that you receive little to no benefit, I would challenge you to reevaluate your priorities.

    I can't remember if I said it in this post or another. At the end of the day, there are either sheep or wolves. If you think that working just for the sake of working is "doing your civic duty", that's fine I suppose. You are just a sheep and that's okay. The world needs slaves and I'm personally glad there are those willing to serve. It allows the limelight to remain on the sheeple which allows me to pursue my interests.
    See, that's where I weasel out of civic duty, it's one's right to take measures necessary when the body politic becomes self destructive, as it did here, where I live, in a national ruins of sorts, where civic duty dictates by law and order that all persons CEASE AND DESIST as so officially ordered and dictated by law.

    It's my civic duty to fend for myself at all costs, including life itself!

    Live free or dye trying! Anything else is subordinate to mandated misery!
    We are lawfully exiled by the alterations and changes made to this social compact called government, its body politic now cancerous and destructive to its own ends.

    A man is on his own, always was, always will be.

  17. #37

    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by mgtower View Post
    See, that's where I weasel out of civic duty, it's one's right to take measures necessary when the body politic becomes self destructive, as it did here, where I live, in a national ruins of sorts, where civic duty dictates by law and order that all persons CEASE AND DESIST as so officially ordered and dictated by law.

    It's my civic duty to fend for myself at all costs, including life itself!

    Live free or dye trying! Anything else is subordinate to mandated misery!
    This is a thought process that I can get on board with. To be most bold and a little harsh, I don't really care about these other people in my community. There are only a very select group of people I give a damn about and the rest of humanity can go F*** itself. I owe no one in this country any help and will not participate in any sort of commune. I ask for no assistance from anyone and will choose very carefully on whom I will help.
    In the future there will be robots.

  18. #38
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post
    Those "very LARGE number of Indians" are men after my own heart. Doing work just for the sake of doing work is a fool's errand. If you find some "pride" from doing government-mandated work that you receive little to no benefit, I would challenge you to reevaluate your priorities.

    I can't remember if I said it in this post or another. At the end of the day, there are either sheep or wolves. If you think that working just for the sake of working is "doing your civic duty", that's fine I suppose. You are just a sheep and that's okay. The world needs slaves and I'm personally glad there are those willing to serve. It allows the limelight to remain on the sheeple which allows me to pursue my interests.

    I never said ANYTHING about "government mandated work", I said about just work.


    The work which can include, but not limited to, development of their personal self, working in a team with other individuals in a PRIVATE business, working as part of a contract between PRIVATE entities, etc...

    I will absolutely detest a person who will say he/she will give his/her best in a team and gets on my team, and then starts to give below average results as a result not putting in enough effort. Regardless of whatever their stance is with the government, I am NOT a government, and neither is the work (I dont take government work).

    Your stance against government is same as mine, but I dont know what your stance is on individual work. When I enter a contract with an individual on friendly terms that I will work for/with him, then the work becomes my religion. And until and unless rest of the team doesnt do something to violate that state, I am very adamant and aggressive about doing the work as perfect as possible, and it tends to be vastly superior to average Indians around me.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  19. #39

    Re: Face masks are great.

    @rkspsm...No one said you said "government mandated work". I said "government mandated work" and was speaking for myself. Sorry if there was some confusion. After reading again what I posted earlier, I realized I use the word "you" a lot. When I wrote "you", I didn't mean you specifically rkspsm. I was merely using the word "you" in a generalized way to refer to anyone.

    My point to the above post was merely to say that I completely agree with those who desire reward commenserate to the work they do. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

    To clarify my stance on individual work I would say, I'll work as hard as I can for the person I enter a contract with provided I receive reward commenserate to the work I provide. For example, if I agree to do x for $15.00 an hour, I expect to see every bit of that $15.00 an hour come pay period.

    Hopefully what I'm saying makes some sense.
    In the future there will be robots.

  20. #40
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Face masks are great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonobo Protocol View Post
    @rkspsm...No one said you said "government mandated work". I said "government mandated work" and was speaking for myself. Sorry if there was some confusion. After reading again what I posted earlier, I realized I use the word "you" a lot. When I wrote "you", I didn't mean you specifically rkspsm. I was merely using the word "you" in a generalized way to refer to anyone.

    My point to the above post was merely to say that I completely agree with those who desire reward commenserate to the work they do. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

    To clarify my stance on individual work I would say, I'll work as hard as I can for the person I enter a contract with provided I receive reward commenserate to the work I provide. For example, if I agree to do x for $15.00 an hour, I expect to see every bit of that $15.00 an hour come pay period.

    Hopefully what I'm saying makes some sense.
    Oh ok, I am sorry too then, I thought you were literally replying to me. And it confused me a bit, because I actually agree with your position, and defended your stance in some other threads.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman


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