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  1. #61

    Re: LOL @ Republicans in Texas praising that abortion law

    Hi Jackoff, There is no 'bait', the discussion and exchange of views is what interests me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    (i) Only human life is sacred: I think it should begin here. If one cannot respect the life of their own species..


    A point and well taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    yet I have no problem tucking in to a nice juicy steak. There is hypocrisy here ..
    It is good that one can recognise that there is hypocrisy in taking a life for one's own well-being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    (iii) Might is right. Yes and no. To kill for survival, whether it be humans (self-defence), animal or vegetable (to eat), pests (wildlife) that threaten your livestock / crops, or germs and bacteria (to avoid infection) is one thing, but to kill just because you can is quite another.
    Unfortunately that is not the case. We have done just that - killed because we can, and not just for survival.

    From historical to current perspectives, we have piloted according to the morality 'might-makes-right', and we have killed wantonly because we can. I would contend that the 'right-to-life' laws our society has implemented exist only because society requires a certain degree of co-operation and conflict suppression between its members in order to maintain certain levels of productivity for the super-organism (society), and that the whole 'right-to-life' debate cloaks the fact that the laws are there merely to restrict individual members killing each other on a grand-scale, as such acts would weaken the super-organism itself.

    In the past, we traded smallpox infected blankets to native Americans (biological warfare) and killed them, took their lands.
    In current times, our military-industrial complex relies on a constant drip of overseas wars, even if they have to keep manufacturing reasons for those wars. We've waged wars on trumped-up evidence, and later, when no WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction) were found it conveniently gets swept under the carpet, all while the military-industrial complex reaps huge profits. Sometimes we even leave behind toxic chemicals or radioactive dust from munitions which then poison future generations, causing still-births or leading to children being born with horrible birth defects and disfigurements decades later.

    Domestically, the super-organism has to balance between keeping the productive members of society appeased and cannot kill as wantonly. That said, the US has an ever increasing prison population and now boasts the highest prison population per capita according to OECD data. We've got more prisoners rotting in our jails (2.12m prisoners) than even the most populous country with an authoritarian-dictatorship, China (1.79m prisoners). And 'unnatural' deaths in prisons are skyrocketing (prison mortality rate has been increasing every year since 2001 according to BJS data). Domestically, we drive men to suicide or to jail or both in droves. When it comes to killing humans, at home and abroad, we are really good at doing it. We do it because we can and because 'might-makes-right'.

    When it comes to the reproduction cycle, a fertilised egg, will need to tap directly on the supply of nutrition directly from the mother - thus affecting her own well-being. Blood sugars, fats, minerals, calcium, etc. are all extracted from her being in order to supply the fetus. And the father may not be able to work or has to work longer hours, or take on risker jobs for better pay, in order to bring in money (through child support or otherwise) to provide for both the mother and child, thus affecting his own well-being. If you can recognise the hypocrisy in taking of a life for your own well-being, you can perhaps recognise that others may want to do the same for their own individual well-beings.

    Thank you for engaging me respectfully and I look forward to your reply.

  2. #62
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: LOL @ Republicans in Texas praising that abortion law

    Abortion?

    Simple!

    Not my pussy, not my choice!

    I have plenty of answering to do on judgment day and abortion just isn't one of them, nor shall it ever be!

    I'm not a woman and I'm not an abortionist, that leaves me out of the loop!

    My hands are blood free on that account!
    Any man that seeks leadership outside himself has a fool for a guide.

  3. #63
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    Re: LOL @ Republicans in Texas praising that abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsmith79 View Post
    Hi Jackoff, There is no 'bait', the discussion and exchange of views is what interests me.

    [/COLOR]

    A point and well taken.



    It is good that one can recognise that there is hypocrisy in taking a life for one's own well-being.



    Unfortunately that is not the case. We have done just that - killed because we can, and not just for survival.

    From historical to current perspectives, we have piloted according to the morality 'might-makes-right', and we have killed wantonly because we can. I would contend that the 'right-to-life' laws our society has implemented exist only because society requires a certain degree of co-operation and conflict suppression between its members in order to maintain certain levels of productivity for the super-organism (society), and that the whole 'right-to-life' debate cloaks the fact that the laws are there merely to restrict individual members killing each other on a grand-scale, as such acts would weaken the super-organism itself.

    In the past, we traded smallpox infected blankets to native Americans (biological warfare) and killed them, took their lands.
    In current times, our military-industrial complex relies on a constant drip of overseas wars, even if they have to keep manufacturing reasons for those wars. We've waged wars on trumped-up evidence, and later, when no WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction) were found it conveniently gets swept under the carpet, all while the military-industrial complex reaps huge profits. Sometimes we even leave behind toxic chemicals or radioactive dust from munitions which then poison future generations, causing still-births or leading to children being born with horrible birth defects and disfigurements decades later.

    Domestically, the super-organism has to balance between keeping the productive members of society appeased and cannot kill as wantonly. That said, the US has an ever increasing prison population and now boasts the highest prison population per capita according to OECD data. We've got more prisoners rotting in our jails (2.12m prisoners) than even the most populous country with an authoritarian-dictatorship, China (1.79m prisoners). And 'unnatural' deaths in prisons are skyrocketing (prison mortality rate has been increasing every year since 2001 according to BJS data). Domestically, we drive men to suicide or to jail or both in droves. When it comes to killing humans, at home and abroad, we are really good at doing it. We do it because we can and because 'might-makes-right'.

    When it comes to the reproduction cycle, a fertilised egg, will need to tap directly on the supply of nutrition directly from the mother - thus affecting her own well-being. Blood sugars, fats, minerals, calcium, etc. are all extracted from her being in order to supply the fetus. And the father may not be able to work or has to work longer hours, or take on risker jobs for better pay, in order to bring in money (through child support or otherwise) to provide for both the mother and child, thus affecting his own well-being. If you can recognise the hypocrisy in taking of a life for your own well-being, you can perhaps recognise that others may want to do the same for their own individual well-beings.

    Thank you for engaging me respectfully and I look forward to your reply.
    No bait? O.K.

    I love a good discussion / debate and I’m prepared to believe it was unintentional but when someone says “Think about it this way…” or some such it immediately sets off my Spidey Sense. Too often it has proven to be a means to confuse the issue at hand with superfluous rhetoric and within that confusion seeds of doubt can be planted, but these seeds will not flourish in my lands. There are many terms for this but my personal favourite is “muddying the water”.

    Debate with those of differing mind-sets is a good thing in the right atmosphere, it can open your mind, but that doesn’t mean all argument should be tolerated as this opens one to subversion.

    So, my apologies for referring to your argument as ‘bait’, but hopefully you can see where I’m coming from.

    For MGTOW to be discussing abortion: for the most part I’m with mgtower – it no longer has anything to do with me. For this reason I didn’t vote in our (Ireland) referendum on abortion, but I do like to look at morality in general, so…

    Back to the issue of “Might is Right”:

    To be honest, this seems to me like a military way of looking at things, borne out by your own examples. There goes that Spidey Sense again.

    What do I mean by this?

    Well, it seems to me (not being from military background) that soldiers (in whatever form: army, navy etc.) are asked to do things that they simply cannot understand the impact of because the military doesn’t often explain, therefore this is a fall-back position to alleviate the conscience of the individual.

    This is not available in civilian life. In civilian life you have to take responsibility for your own actions. There is no buck to pass.

    You mention things that have occurred, like smallpox infected blankets and WMDs being used as an excuse to declare war on another nation (I could add a few more) – but were these things the “right” thing to do? Most would say they are contemptable and immoral and therefore wrong.

    So let’s look at the phrase itself:

    The use of the word “Right” implies some moral standing, so when one says “Might is Right” this then implies that the only (or maybe best) way of measuring morality is through the availability of force.

    A direct question to you: Is this what you believe? I realise this is just a debate but it would help to know your standing on the issue. Are you advocating, or playing devil’s advocate or something other?

    I realise it would be unfair of me to ask that question without stating my own answer, so here goes:

    No. I do not believe that “Might is Right” although I do believe sometimes it is necessary. Necessary does not equate to right.

    Right is right and wrong is wrong so again it comes down to an individual’s morality on any given topic. I believe it is a mistake to try to put all moral questions in to the same basket. Each should be addressed individually.

    Is might effective? Unquestionably. But does that make it right?

    To my way of thinking the whole “Might is Right” attitude is one of the schoolyard bully, the armed criminal gang, the terrorist. Effectiveness does not equate to morality.

    But what of legality?

    Might is Right may seem to apply here, but does it really? Our police forces enforce the law (ostensibly at least) using might, but you have to look at the laws they enforce. Are they moral? Most are yes, but some are, er, questionable (I don’t want to say no, but we all know that some laws are biased in favour of one group over another – that’s yet another discussion).

    A mind experiment if you don’t mind (forgive the unintentional pun):

    Say I’m walking down the street and see a line of ants and for some mad reason decide to start stamping on them. There is no law that I’m aware of preventing me from doing this, but is it right? The law does not legislate morality only behaviour (paraphrasing Martin Luther King Jr.)

    Right and wrong is a question of morality, morality comes down to individual beliefs. Does your morality allow for the killing of your own offspring simply for the sake of convenience? This is NOT a matter of survival to wit the killing of livestock or vegetation for consumption. When I see abortion on demand I see it as a matter of convenience.

    To me, these are separate and distinct things and I think it disingenuous to conflate the two. This is consistent with my view that abortion is acceptable when the woman’s life is at stake physically.

  4. #64

    Re: LOL @ Republicans in Texas praising that abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    For MGTOW to be discussing abortion: for the most part I’m with mgtower – it no longer has anything to do with me.
    Agreed, MGTOW has nothing to do with abortion. If you look back on my posts, it is the discussion, particularly on morality, that interests me.

    .

    I have repeatedly stated that I do not criticise nor advocate any positions on the issue, in part because I have not yet established in my mind what would be moral and what would be hypocrisy and in part because I am aware that history shows that our views on laws and morality do change.

    A simple observation that in one country we may have to pay 45% in income taxes, in another we may have to pay 25%, in yet another, its a 17% flat tax. One can observe that the rules and laws differ by country. Looking at history, rules and laws have changed over time. Alcohol was once legal, then became prohibited, and was made legal again. Marijuana is classed as a hard drug with the multi-decade long war on drugs, many have been sent to jail. Now it is on the road to legalisation.

    History shows the same for laws on Slavery and Abortion. Laws (and the moral reasonings behind them) have proven to be changeable with time and circumstance. The developed world is aging rapidly and I can foresee that Technology for child-birth/artificial wombs will only improve by leaps and bounds. The consequences it brings, and how it might change our moral views and our laws are widely unpredictable. It may be that governments will finally 'breed' their own population as more men refuse to procreate and birth-rates fall further.

    You have asked me what is my belief and have pushed for an answer.

    My current standing is that I would like to believe in the universal morality (i) 'All life is sacred', however examination of society, history and observation of current events does not bear this to be the case. Direct observation points to a morality (ii) 'might-makes-right', where the mighty winners set the rights and the rules and the losers have no choice but to accept them.

    At the most basic level, if one day you or I refuse to pay those taxes that the government says we have to pay, thugs armed with guns will come to threaten and will apply force on us. I cannot deny that society upholds the morality 'might-makes-right'. It would be like believing in blue-pill fairytales about women while denying the observed red-pill reality.

    Truth be told, I feel like I may have woken up from one blue-pilled matrix about women and gynocentrism, only to discover that there is yet another matrix for morality and where I am currently seated in front of Morpheus and now being offered the choice between believing in morality (i) or morality (ii), however unlike Neo, I am unable to decide which pill to swallow.

  5. #65
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    Re: LOL @ Republicans in Texas praising that abortion law

    Sorry, but this is another long post.

    @ johnsmith79

    My apologies if I made you feel pressurised in any way, it’s just that IRL I’ve been in too many debates where misunderstandings occur because one or other doesn’t make it clear that they’re playing devil’s advocate, or it looks like they are taking a stance when really they are unsure of their stance as seems to be the case here.

    But maybe some good has come out of this as I now think I see your dilemma. Please forgive the dime store psychology that is to follow but I’ve been here a number of times myself.


    You know your own morality on this issue: All life is sacred.

    But society seems to say otherwise and, like any reasonable thinking person you are asking yourself if you are missing something. I believe this to be both good and bad. Good because you keep questioning your own beliefs, but bad because the comparison is with what you perceive as society’s morality.

    Why do I say it is a perception?

    Because society has no morality, at least not in the same way as an individual. It is an unfair comparison.

    Most of us on this forum live in what we term democracies. Even the word democracy is a misnomer but that’s another debate.

    An example:

    Here in Ireland we had a referendum on abortion a few years back. This was necessary as we have a written constitution which cannot be changed without such a referendum. This constitution was heavily influenced by the Catholic Church.

    It was written in to the constitution (in so many words) that the life of the unborn was protected in the same way as any other life and so could not be terminated unless the mother’s life was at risk.

    I can’t remember the details clearly but just prior to the referendum there was a case where mother and baby died because she couldn’t legally have an abortion here – apparently the evidence was insufficient until it was too late. There’s more to the story but you get the picture and this led to calls for a referendum.

    So we had the referendum and it passed. Abortion is now legal here for any or no reason up to a certain time in the pregnancy.

    But why did people vote in favour? It’s easy to ascribe this to a single moral position but is this the correct interpretation? When you look at it rationally there were a number of factors at play.

    First of all emotions were high at this single occurrence of the loss of two lives and we know that many vote emotionally rather than rationally.

    There were people like myself that are anti-abortion that didn’t vote. My reasoning was it was not for me to impose my morality on a subject that didn’t affect me anymore. It did once but that’s another long story. It’s in my intro if you are interested.

    There were pro-abortionists (I hate the term pro-choice) that came out in force and played on people’s emotions due to the mentioned deaths in the run up.

    There were members of the medical profession that thought the legislation as it stood made it too difficult to make the determination and so risk prosecution.

    There were people that voted for because they are against the Catholic Church having such a say in our politics, although to be fair many more probably voted against because of their religion.

    And there were probably those that had had to travel abroad for abortions and carried family members with them in their vote at a perceived unnecessary extra hardship.

    And there were probably many more reasons.

    So what is the reasoning for the referendum being passed? Was it about the morality of taking a life? All I can say is for some, yes and for others no. So there is no single morality at play. With a 64% turnout and two thirds of them voting in favour it’s easy to ascribe a single morality, but again I have to ask if this is the correct interpretation.

    This is a microcosm of why people vote in particular ways and is reflected in how we elect our representatives, we see it all the time.

    For this reason I believe it flawed to compare your own morality to that of society since there is simply no way of telling where the morals of society as a whole lie. It often sways with their emotions at the time.

    So, when you speak of your reasonable perceptions of “Might is Right” throughout history neither you nor I can possibly know all the factors at play in each individual case. Maybe it is as simple “I’m stronger than you so I’ll do what I want”, but maybe there were other things going on as well.

    Even if it is the case of brute strength, does that make it right (morally speaking)? Only you can answer that. For me it’s a very firm no. If anything, to me it is the antithesis of morality, the abandonment of right versus wrong in favour of can versus can’t.

    You say that after swallowing the MGTOW red-pill you feel like you are experiencing another when it comes to morality. Know that there are many, many red-pills or to put it another way many aspects to the red-pill that just seem to keep coming. This is natural. Once you shed one aspect of indoctrination you begin to see many more. The rabbit hole runs deep, I believe it is much deeper than any single person can possibly know.

    The red-pill is like life, it is a journey not a destination. It up to each of us individually to seek our own truths. For me, it is more about attitude than facts for we simply cannot know all the facts, but we can train ourselves to spot the lies that society tries to sell us more effectively. It is about being strong and sure of yourself without being overly rigid and single-minded. Know thyself, including one’s flaws.


    My only advice – trust your own instincts and your own morality, they seem to be serving you well.


    Anyway, I’ll be signing off now. I only entered this debate because abortion is a subject I feel very strongly about. For now I’ll be returning to the shadows.

  6. #66

    Re: LOL @ Republicans in Texas praising that abortion law

    I had intended to return to this debate but doing so feels a little redundant now.
    In short - for right or wrong i am against abortion but happy to have my views challenged. I seek truth and always prepared to shift my opinions depending on new information. but with abortion my mind is made up regardless of my catholic upbringing (abandoned since i left school) - well almost - i have to attend the usual stuff family want to do in church. I digress.

    Abortion is a stain on humanity.

  7. #67

    Re: LOL @ Republicans in Texas praising that abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Anyway, I’ll be signing off now. I only entered this debate because abortion is a subject I feel very strongly about. For now I’ll be returning to the shadows.
    The exchanges have been insightful, and is much appreciated.

    I will respect your wishes to return to the shadows. For me at least, the moral dilemma remains quite unresolved and I will need to give it a considerable amount of time and thought.

    Thank you once again for engaging respectfully and for taking the time to compose the posts as you have done.


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