Thread: Jordan Peterson - Men: How to find the right woman - FFS.

I have a profound amount of respect for Peterson - as a new member here, I'm not too sure what the impression is within our community - but he has done wonders for many young men (and others) who felt lost in our current culture.

Can't say I'm a fan of this week's post obviously, but I suppose everyone can't be MGTOW...

Would be interested to hear other's impressions of him as a thought leader etc.

Here is the post I'm referencing, with the relevant quote below, which is quite pathetic frankly.

https://mailchi.mp/jordanbpeterson.c...1?e=960f20d9a8

"How do I find the partner right for me?” You could start by not asking that question. How about, “How do I become the partner who's right for someone else?” I would say, if you were to concentrate on that, then you'd have no problem solving the problem.

You're a man. What do women want? Well, they'd like you to be strong. They'd like you to be reliable. They'd like you to be adventurous. They'd like you to be cool. They'd like you to be competent, productive, awake, alert, reciprocal, and generous.

It's like, well, be all of those things! If you concentrate on being the prince, you’ll find the princess.

Originally Posted by KRFJames

I have a profound amount of respect for Peterson - as a new member here, I'm not too sure what the impression is within our community - but he has done wonders for many young men (and others) who felt lost in our current culture.

Can't say I'm a fan of this week's post obviously, but I suppose everyone can't be MGTOW...

Would be interested to hear other's impressions of him as a thought leader etc.

Here is the post I'm referencing, with the relevant quote below, which is quite pathetic frankly.

https://mailchi.mp/jordanbpeterson.c...1?e=960f20d9a8

"How do I find the partner right for me?” You could start by not asking that question. How about, “How do I become the partner who's right for someone else?” I would say, if you were to concentrate on that, then you'd have no problem solving the problem.

You're a man. What do women want? Well, they'd like you to be strong. They'd like you to be reliable. They'd like you to be adventurous. They'd like you to be cool. They'd like you to be competent, productive, awake, alert, reciprocal, and generous.

It's like, well, be all of those things! If you concentrate on being the prince, you’ll find the princess.

My usual complaint is not with Peterson in particular, but with anybody who publishes what men should do, or how men should change, for women. So many people provide long discourses, lists, of what a man should do. These lists are often well thought out and can be quite literary, especially if written by a woman. Yet, these same people don't offer what women should do, how they should change, for men. You just don't see those lists.

I guess women are permitted to sit back and say, do for me.

I see other men complain about it, too, saying what do women bring to the table other than their V.

Women aren't required to think, aren't required to deliver, and keep recording themselves on places like TikToxic, and we continue to laugh at them.

The money is in going after men, not going after women.

Originally Posted by Unboxxed

My usual complaint is not with Peterson in particular, but with anybody who publishes what men should do, or how men should change, for women.

That's my take as well - I have no issues with general advice etc. It's this pandering BS. that really irks me.

All men are expected to conform with what a female wants. We are suposta offer up undivided attention, money, safety our home bla bla. All we get in return is how we are all knuckle dragging bafoons that are dumb and just want to use them for some ass dominating their very existence. Kinda reminds me of a political party running the show here in the USA. It would be an astonishing accomplishment for a woman to THINK why and how she would make a good wife. The illusion created by ones mind of what men need to do to please a woman is so ingrained in western culture it baffles my mind.

Poor Jordan. He dated in the 1970s, got married shortly after, and doesn't have a clue of the current situation.

He's done some prelim research, but does not grasp the forces at play.

I hate to say, but it applies. "OK, Boomer." Even though he is a first wave Gen X'r.

I admire Peterson for his debating skills but nothing else.
Before beeing RP'd I've thought he is one of the few sane voices out here.
In reality he is a man cucked by the culture he lives in.
You see, his daughter is a stereotypical 304.

You asked whether Peterson is liked in the community or not.
He is not liked. Mainly for calling us "pathetic weasles".
But what I take issue with the most is that he often says "before going to save the world, clean your own room" yet he couldn't even raise his daughter right.

You could start by not asking that question. How about, “How do I become the partner who's right for someone else?”
[...]What do women want?
[...]It's like, well, be all of those things!

I like to call it cuckthink.
It's two step pattern easy to spot once you become aware of it.
1. Shift the responsibility onto male.
2. Find/propose the solution that protects woman the most.

Now usually I call cuckservatives just tone-deaf but I really have no excuse for peterson.
This approach is not justifiable by any means.
Even 300 years ago it would be equally foolish.

By traditional model, you are supposed to have almost absolute authority over your family
limited only by your faith. Authority and the responsibility for the wellbeing of the family.
You see - authority comes first. Responsibility is just a byproduct.

Traditional model acknowledges that women don't know what is best for them.
It is your job to prevent them from making stupid choices.
That's why you will see heavy involvement of the father in courtship.
That's why conservatives were always touchy regarding clothing, moral degeneracy and "freedom of choice".

Now this it a part where it gets interesting. Old conservatives are purple pilled but only pills neocons like Peterson take are blue.

I don't like him because he wrote "12 rules for life" while being heavily addicted on medications. After that he should have humbled himself and addmited his mistakes. But no. He continued to claim that a book about life advice written by and addict who almost died from his addiction is a great book. And doubled down with 12 more rules for life.

He is someone who will never admit that he is wrong. Very arrogant and self centerd.
If you are interested in philosophy and psychology, he can explain the basics but don't dwell too long on him.

Originally Posted by KRFJames

I have a profound amount of respect for Peterson - as a new member here, I'm not too sure what the impression is within our community - but he has done wonders for many young men (and others) who felt lost in our current culture.

Can't say I'm a fan of this week's post obviously, but I suppose everyone can't be MGTOW...

Would be interested to hear other's impressions of him as a thought leader etc.

Here is the post I'm referencing, with the relevant quote below, which is quite pathetic frankly.

https://mailchi.mp/jordanbpeterson.c...1?e=960f20d9a8

"How do I find the partner right for me?” You could start by not asking that question. How about, “How do I become the partner who's right for someone else?” I would say, if you were to concentrate on that, then you'd have no problem solving the problem.

You're a man. What do women want? Well, they'd like you to be strong. They'd like you to be reliable. They'd like you to be adventurous. They'd like you to be cool. They'd like you to be competent, productive, awake, alert, reciprocal, and generous.

It's like, well, be all of those things! If you concentrate on being the prince, you’ll find the princess.

Jordan Peterson covers a lot of topics, in some areas he is eloquent. A topic which I certainly disagree with him is courtship. By proposing the question, "What do women want?" He is promoting the geocentric paradigm. You could start by not asking that question. How about, "How do I avoid becoming a casualty of divorce or #metoo?"

You're a man. What do women want? Well, they want you to earn a lot of money. They want you to spend that money on them, even if it's involuntary.

They'd like you to be competent except when it comes to law regarding marriage, cohabitation and child support. They'd like you to be productive in a way that benefits her. They'd like you to lay awake at night pondering your sexless marriage in silence. They like you to alert them of any financial issues so they know when to monkey branch to the next man. They'd like you to be generous so you freely open your wallet.

It's like, well, if you concentrate on spending money on her you will find a princess, until, she figures out she can take half of your money in the divorce.

I've never liked him. Always felt he is a very watered down version of actually great men parroting their ideas in a much reduced context. Read Nietzsche, Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung, Shopenhauer etc for yourself and you'll see what tepid derived tea he actually is. Don't try to become anything for women. Most of them are BASIC no matter what they appear. They will not try to become anything for you, that's almost certain. The whole idea of becoming what others want is slave morality. Become yourself and go free.

The MGTOW community doesn't look on Peterson very kindly. Originally, it was because of his "MGTOW are pathetic weasels" comment, years ago, followed by a lame non-apology. Gradually, MGTOW saw him for what he is: a very traditional, conservative guy with a perspective based in the past. As Sam pointed out above, Peterson married his high school sweetheart, the first person he ever dated, and he's been married ever since, for 40 years. He has no clue at all what the dating market is like, or how it has changed.

He dispenses very trite advice, something you could get as well from thousands of other sources, including Dear Abby. For instance, his advice here can be boiled down to, "Figure out what women want, and then give it to them. Shape your personality and character to please women." I think that's terrible advice, not just from a MGTOW perspective, but from a psychological one. Make women the center of gravity in your life?

He's said similarly stupid things many times. In another recent vid, he said something to the effect of, if a woman doesn't like something about you, "the woman is right." Just a blanket statement: "the woman is right." No consideration of the possibility that maybe a woman could be wrong.

He extols the virtues of marriage. I know it's worked for him, but I wonder about the young men he's leading down the primrose path.

To be clear, I have some admiration for Peterson. He bravely took on the social justice warriors on campus and the media, and he paid dearly for it. He was a voice of reason that pushed back against the identitarian left, back in 2018 or so. I envy how verbally articulate he is (I think this is a large part of his fame, simply the fact that he is a very engaging speaker). He has done plenty of good. He has helped a lot of young men who were lost and adrift.

But when it comes to romantic advice, forget it. You might as well get romantic advice from Dennis Prager. He's a very trad-con guy who is just plainly out of touch.

It’s quite easy for a guy who is already married to sit on his ass and babble on about all the things men should be doing to find a relationship and make it work. Maybe these things worked for Peterson back when he was dating 300 years ago, but he simply cannot empathize with what a lot of men are currently experiencing in the “dating” culture.

Why should a man twist and contort himself and his beliefs to appease a woman? We came into this world alone and we’re all going out the same way. I cannot imagine how that would feel to be taking your last breaths with the knowledge that you sold yourself out for the sake of some ungrateful, entitled bitch who never really cared or appreciated you anyway. This may sound cliched, but there really is nothing more important than being true to yourself and being your own man. You only have you in the end.

You see this often with Tradcon Pastors, esp. if they married before the 1980s, and/or from small towns where everybody's business was known and thus gals stayed traditional longer than general society.

It's funny to see them behave now:

"My daughter is 28 and nobody will man up and marry her! She's got a Masters degree in Marketing and is a Sales Rep who travels all over the country, staying in a new city every week. She's tried Plenty of Fish and the new Christian Site, Tinder. She even goes to Social Gatherings at Chad & Stacy Nightclub on Fridays. But no young man will MAN UP because they're having too much fun and won't get serious!"

It's amazing how clueless they are.

Peterson is reacting as a man from a small town in Canada who grew up mostly in the 60s/early 70s in a nuclear family with a high blue collar income father and homemaker mother, and married his HS Sweetheart would.

His work has been with a lot of guys who can't seem to get off the ground. He talks about his best friend from his small town who blamed the world and lived the rest of his life smoking weed.

So, he thinks that these guys need to achieve according to that Erickson/Maslow thing of being responsible for themselves, finding an identity, and then having intimacy with another person.

Being at least half old-school, he thinks their next step is to find a partner once they make their bed, get a job, and have something of a career going and can fend for themselves.

If you had told me, when I was in college in the mid 90s, that in 20 years there would be Drag Queen Story time in Public Libraries for prepubescent kids, or graphic novels being presented to them in public schools with the full support of the ALA and NEA and NYSUT and NSBA and etc. etc., I would have called you a Right Wing Nutjob who needed to lay off the John Birch pamphlets.

Chicks I got a lot earlier, I noticed the more aloof and cocky I was, the more they were into me, but whereas the more "Gentlemanly" I was with them, unless they were already super into me they withdrew or blew me off entirely. Even chicks who were objectively less hot than ones I had hooked up with when just acting up and not actively pursuing them.

So, I can see the blinders. Peterson has no clue what it is like to date. I was fortunate enough to use OLD way back in Prodigy days (when you went to your county's sub chat for young people and could chat a chick, and wait an hour for the picture file to download, while parents yelling at you to stop tying up the phone line with the dial up) all the way to AFF back in the 2000s when it was gold mine for any guy who wasn't totally clueless or sloppy looking for hot lovin' action.

He only has a daughter, no sons, and was married decades before Tinder and the endless female validation buttons existed.

The Man DOES do a good job getting 20-something guys who are "Stuck" off their ass, and I enjoy his Jungian Archetype stuff that explains much, and his theory of the need to confront demons and danger and the path of the Hero. He also smacks down SJWs hard. Nobody is perfect on all issues all the time, though. I know an amazing guy who is both a doctor and a warrior, no BS whatsoever, but because of his profession he is totally up the wazoo on the issue of the past two years. But great on everything else.

I probably have blind spots, things I won't even consider considering until I have an encounter with them up front and personal that effects me or my immediate circle directly.

Appreciate everyone's responses and insights - as I navigate my way through the considerable amount of past material on the forum, I'm hoping to avoid re-hashing old discussions and wasting folks time here with that (although I do understand that will happen from time to time when subjects come back to the fore, such as with this one this week).

I suppose I have a tendency to elevate certain public figures' status when I admire them in a certain way (whether a fellow Canadian celebrity psychologist or otherwise), which can lead to dismissing or ignoring certain faults.

As for Peterson, I certainly don't agree with him on everything -- but his rise to prominence was incredibly important for me here in Canada - the government was/is literally trying to control our speech through laws, and Peterson's push back (based on his solid understanding of the types of tactics that lead to a totalitarian society) was and is still critical. I also take his flaws (overcoming substance abuse issues for example) more as virtues that strengthen his insights, as opposed to a reason not to listen to him.

I wasn't aware of his disparaging remarks towards us in the past as I am not religious about absorbing all of his content. Quite frankly I thought that his promotion of masculinity and strong, capable and responsible men was, in a way, aligned with our philosophy. I'm quite aware of the differences, but as was discussed in threads on this topic a few years back, his promotion of masculinity in this sense may indeed steer many more men towards our way of thinking/living. I see that as a positive.

How to find the right woman?

Do online research to determine which silicone- or TPE-doll maker is best, then order the one that appeals to you best from their web site. She won't cheat on you or divorce rape you. She won't nag you or put you down. She won't do any cooking or cleaning either, but you can't have everything.

Originally Posted by KRFJames

Quite frankly I thought that his promotion of masculinity and strong, capable and responsible men was, in a way, aligned with our philosophy.

Yes, I agree, it is -- in the broad sense standing up for traditional masculinity. I have enjoyed watching him dismantle modern feminists. He pushes back against feminist narratives that undercut men. That is good. It's needed.

But he gives with one hand and takes away with the other. At the same time as he stands up for men, he also gives out messages like we've seen here: "Please women. Make women's desires the organizing principle of your personality and character." Or, "If a woman doesn't like you, it's your problem, bucko! Shape up!" To me, this sounds very gynocentric.

I also think he's hypocritical on the issue of individualism. Peterson constantly extols the virtues of individualism, and yet, if a man rejects marriage and enjoys being single, Peterson condemns him. What happened to individualism? Or is "individualism" only good when it conforms to his life choices?

He had some great ideas when he first burst onto the scene. His talks with Joe Rogan were particularly good. I especially credit him for linking feminism and marxism and gender identity and the evil that it has brought forth. He may not be the first person to bring forth the idea, but he was for me the person that enlightened me to those ideologies.

But he started getting into topics and ideas that he should've stayed out of like how men should live their lives.

His credibility was gone the moment he started worshiping his daughter and followed her meat only diet

Originally Posted by opensource

His credibility was gone the moment he started worshiping his daughter and followed her meat only diet

I was never a fan of his daughter - but as a father of a daughter, I understand his wanting to support her efforts etc.

On the diet - I will have to disagree - it's something I've followed myself fairly regularly for years (not because of him) and I can speak to it's incredible benefits (and I'm far from alone on this). Rogan covers the topic extensively as well.

I'm not exclusively meat and there are extremists, but some balance is fine. Bottom line - by and large the majority of your calories should come from animals. Nutrition aside, it doesn't take much research behind the marketing machine that is "plant based is better for you and the planet" to see who is involved and what their goals/motives are. It isn't good, and it certainly isn't in the best interests of people or the planet.

This isn't the place for an extensive dialogue on it (perhaps in off-topic forum) - but as a pasture-based/regenerative livestock farmer, it's my business to know a thing or two about the subject. However, I only engage when I'm certain someone is genuinely seeking clarity on the subject and I'm glad to provide direction, but I won't do someone's homework for them either. I've been in far too many pointless debates with those evangelizing some well-intentioned but woefully misinformed, ideologically driven diet...

Originally Posted by KRFJames

On the diet - I will have to disagree - it's something I've followed myself fairly regularly for years (not because of him) and I can speak to it's incredible benefits (and I'm far from alone on this). Rogan covers the topic extensively as well.

I'm not exclusively meat and there are extremists, but some balance is fine. Bottom line - by and large the majority of your calories should come from animals. Nutrition aside, it doesn't take much research behind the marketing machine that is "plant based is better for you and the planet" to see who is involved and what their goals/motives are. It isn't good, and it certainly isn't in the best interests of people or the planet.

This isn't the place for an extensive dialogue on it (perhaps in off-topic forum) - but as a pasture-based/regenerative livestock farmer, it's my business to know a thing or two about the subject. However, I only engage when I'm certain someone is genuinely seeking clarity on the subject and I'm glad to provide direction, but I won't do someone's homework for them either. I've been in far too many pointless debates with those evangelizing some well-intentioned but woefully misinformed, ideologically driven diet...

Very good. I agree completely. I've been 90% carnivore for over 4 years now, and it's been of tremendous benefit to me. Better energy, better mood, more mental clarity, lost 40 pounds, improvements in markers of inflammation and insulin resistance, etc. CAC of zero.

I first heard it mentioned by Peterson on the Rogan podcast, so I have to give him credit for that. Made a major difference in my life. I didn't jump in just based on Peterson's word, of course. I thought it sounded nuts. I studied it carefully. But Peterson was the first to bring it to my attention.

The results spoke for themselves, as they have for tens of thousands of others. I'm all about animal-based nutrition now. I have a salad a day just for a little variety, but everything else is meat, fish, and eggs.

I also agree with you that there is tremendous amount of bad information out there about both meat and the supposed goodness of a plant-based diet. You're correct about the ideological and corporate interests pushing the latter.

I think it's awesome that you are a regenerative farmer! Every month, I buy a good portion of my meat from a local regenerative farm. From reading the emails my farmer sends out, I can tell it's a difficult gig, especially now with prices shooting up. Hope you're managing ok. You are helping people, animals, and the environment.

Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell

Very good. I agree completely. I've been 90% carnivore for over 4 years now, and it's been of tremendous benefit to me. Better energy, better mood, more mental clarity, lost 40 pounds, improvements in markers of inflammation and insulin resistance, etc. CAC of zero.

I first heard it mentioned by Peterson on the Rogan podcast, so I have to give him credit for that. Made a major difference in my life. I didn't jump in just based on Peterson's word, of course. I thought it sounded nuts. I studied it carefully. But Peterson was the first to bring it to my attention.

The results spoke for themselves, as they have for tens of thousands of others. I'm all about animal-based nutrition now. I have a salad a day just for a little variety, but everything else is meat, fish, and eggs.

I also agree with you that there is tremendous amount of bad information out there about both meat and the supposed goodness of a plant-based diet. You're correct about the ideological and corporate interests pushing the latter.

I think it's awesome that you are a regenerative farmer! Every month, I buy a good portion of my meat from a local regenerative farm. From reading the emails my farmer sends out, I can tell it's a difficult gig, especially now with prices shooting up. Hope you're managing ok. You are helping people, animals, and the environment.

Awesome to hear! The stories are all similar - both from our customers and in the wider community of supporters and meat lovers (health-wise, nutrition etc).

Appreciate the kind words - yes things are going quite well - we've also had to raise our prices - but have begun to make some moves to more sustainable options (like draft horses) as well. We've also been fortunate to have a niche product (tinctures) from our forest that is a real game-changer for us.