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  1. #61
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    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryptic View Post
    …, there is a difference between a straight out transaction (ie Hooker) and hoping to bribe someone.

    I agree about SMV it's a myth that attractive women get hit on a lot. Perhaps online where everyone is a hero but in real life most men find them intimidating. This means less attractive women get hit on more and end up becoming cynical as a result or men thinking they will be easy lays.
    I agree that hookers are different. Not my cup of tea, but different from paying for “dates”. I really don’t get that. Guys who buy women gifts and food always disgusted me. Even as a kid. It just made me cringe.

    This SMV nonsense is one of the most persistent myths I keep hearing in the manosphere. Along with the myth that men have a higher sex drive. All women I’ve ever met had a much higher sex drive than me or any other guy I ever knew. That’s why they have more sex and STDs are much more prevalent with women. It’s also much easier to get actresses to do porn than actors.

  2. #62
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    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bam View Post
    I agree that hookers are different. Not my cup of tea, but different from paying for “dates”. I really don’t get that. Guys who buy women gifts and food always disgusted me. Even as a kid. It just made me cringe.

    This SMV nonsense is one of the most persistent myths I keep hearing in the manosphere. Along with the myth that men have a higher sex drive. All women I’ve ever met had a much higher sex drive than me or any other guy I ever knew. That’s why they have more sex and STDs are much more prevalent with women. It’s also much easier to get actresses to do porn than actors.
    Despite all the bullshit about women's bodies being shamed and women being under pressure to look good etc Women, of all ages, shapes and sizes are a lot more comfortable showing off their bodies than men are. Especially if that results in $$$$. There seems to be a market for just about every type of female body and age. Men on the other hand tends to be much the same requirement. And even then, a lot of male performers do so in a mask because they know they will shamed more than females.

  3. #63
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    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryptic View Post
    Despite all the bullshit about women's bodies being shamed and women being under pressure to look good etc Women, of all ages, shapes and sizes are a lot more comfortable showing off their bodies than men are. Especially if that results in $$$$. There seems to be a market for just about every type of female body and age. Men on the other hand tends to be much the same requirement. And even then, a lot of male performers do so in a mask because they know they will shamed more than females.
    Not sure what “shamed” means. I read it a lot, but I’m never sure what people mean. Sex work has bad consequences for men and women alike. Women just do more porn because they are generally kinkier and like porn more.

    As I already wrote, from my experience, sex is more important for women. Especially the young ones.

    I was strict NoFap for 11 years and I could easily never fap again for the rest of my life.
    Women on the other hand get antsy if they don’t get dicked down regularly.

  4. #64

    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bam View Post
    This SMV nonsense is one of the most persistent myths I keep hearing in the manosphere. Along with the myth that men have a higher sex drive. All women I’ve ever met had a much higher sex drive than me or any other guy I ever knew. That’s why they have more sex and STDs are much more prevalent with women. It’s also much easier to get actresses to do porn than actors.
    Actually, the myth is the current one, promoted by feminism: that women have sex drives that are equal to men. Not so. On average, men have a higher sex drive than women. That is born out in a hundred ways. if you want some data to back that up, see "The Ape who Understood the Universe" for an overview. To take one quick example, just look at porn usage rates. If men and women had the same sex drives, they'd use porn at the same rates. But no, porn is overwhelmingly used by men.

    This makes sense from an evolutionary point of view. Men are predisposed to "spread their seed," so they need a high sex drive. Women, otoh, have to be particular about their sex partners, because of the risk entailed with pregnancy. That is reflected in a differential sex drive.
    Last edited by Eddie Haskell; November 15, 2021 at 2:29 AM.

  5. #65
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    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bam View Post
    Not sure what “shamed” means. I read it a lot, but I’m never sure what people mean. Sex work has bad consequences for men and women alike. Women just do more porn because they are generally kinkier and like porn more.

    As I already wrote, from my experience, sex is more important for women. Especially the young ones.

    I was strict NoFap for 11 years and I could easily never fap again for the rest of my life.
    Women on the other hand get antsy if they don’t get dicked down regularly.
    Well, women claim they are shamed about their bodies and sexuality but I see the opposite in how they behave. I think also sex has become the only thing left for women as some kind of validation. It used to be cooking, how they could make a good home, how they could sew or make things etc

    All they have left is to be porn stars in some way.

  6. #66
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    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bam View Post
    I remember having a conversation with a 50 year old woman, where she explained to me why women wanna fuck hobos: Because the orgasm is stronger
    The hobo is one step up from being a dog on the street. I mean an actual dog. Women like the beast factor, I'm hearing. A Chad is a bit of a beast, eh?


    Quote Originally Posted by Bam View Post
    This SMV nonsense is one of the most persistent myths I keep hearing in the manosphere. Along with the myth that men have a higher sex drive. All women Iíve ever met had a much higher sex drive than me or any other guy I ever knew. Thatís why they have more sex and STDs are much more prevalent with women.
    I guess I always figured that what you call women's higher sex drive was due to the fact that pussy is so sought after (more guys than girls on dating sites, at bars, etc.) that women can get more sex as they want, making for a volume that only looked like a higher sex drive? Plus, are you factoring in gay male porn and amateur gay videos? If you don't think men have a higher sex drive than women, you oughta see two men going at it! They're horndogs! And then multiply it by thousands! Although, that, too, may just be volume. LOL

    Itís also much easier to get actresses to do porn than actors.
    I always figured that women in porn is easy because, to women, laying on one's back is an easier thing to do than to work hard and think hard for a living. Ha, unlike the men in porn, they don't have to be hard for a living! That's why the men have fluffers, persons who keep these actors hard between takes.

    Hey, but I don't know!
    The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. - Mark Twain

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  7. #67

    Re: Is sex all that great??

    It's well known that women in porn get paid more than men. But I suppose this could be a supply and demand failure. Even though it's easier to get women than men, porn makers don't consider what they actually have to pay and just give women more out of generosity.

    40+ years of adult experience, and living in a big city with a significant homeless/hobo population, I've never once witnessed or heard of a "9 or 10" getting with a hobo. But maybe all these guys keep it on the sly, so they don't have the highly paid employed and better dressed getting in on their action. All the PUA lecturer types would be teaching their students how to play hobo, and there'd be 1000 guys on every street corner..

  8. #68

    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by BeenThereDoneThat View Post
    It's well known that women in porn get paid more than men. But I suppose this could be a supply and demand failure. Even though it's easier to get women than men, porn makers don't consider what they actually have to pay and just give women more out of generosity.
    Look at the pay disparity between female and male models. Obviously they work in a very subjective field, but the disparity between the two is...quite substantial. Like you said though, it's supply and demand. The demand to gaze in wonder at the female form is a lot higher than to see dudes with abs.

  9. #69

    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by McDudeski McGee View Post

    It probably has something to do with the way humans evolved in the late Pleistocene. In a modern environment if you have your shit together women will place you in the safe and boring categories. The exception is when you are at the top of a hierarchy -- and I mean a hierarchy, not the hierarchy. I've seen them throw themselves at CEOs in companies both large and small. They like the top dog; it doesn't matter if the man is dominant or lame, or even a big fish in a small pond. While men judge each other by personal characteristics, these are like colors women cannot see; there are other things going on that flip switches in their brains.
    I especially liked your last sentence. Not long ago, I browsed through a feminist rant about evolutionary psychology. They sure don't like it because it's so far removed from their fantasies about female intellect and behavior.

    I've wondered about the evolutionary roots of the entire obsessive/compulsive behavior set women routinely display. Some aspects are rather obvious. Obsession with food, compulsive cleaning e.t.c. easily connect with improved survival odds. Compulsive sexual behavior is more of a puzzle. I suppose in the distant past when lifespans were short, responding to the "tingles" was a way to quickly get past any hesitation about reproduction, and those men who displayed the biggest biceps etc were accurately advertising their fitness to take down whatever beasts were needed for food. So those who tingled early and got busy reproducing, had the most offspring.

    Then with the development of modern society, social controls had to take more precedence over tingles since the old signals no longer worked. A boring accountant is a better provider than the a built ditch digger. The older people with some wisdom had to restrain the impulsive behaviors, for the good of the woman and the group.

    Of course now most of the social controls have fallen apart, and it's back to tingles. Any socially imposed restraint, even for the obvious good of the woman, is patriarchal oppression. Compulsive buying is good for the consumer system, and so that aspect is socially encouraged. I suppose the compulsive sexual behavior also increases GDP in many ways. Women ruined by years of bad behavior buy lots of anti-depressants..

    If women in general would really wake up and see the outcomes of this program, maybe they'd be less inclined to support the nonsense feminist agenda. But I sure don't see it coming in the next few years, unless the whole shit-show collapses.

  10. #70
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    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    Actually, the myth is the current one, promoted by feminism: that women have sex drives that are equal to men. Not so. On average, men have a higher sex drive than women. That is born out in a hundred ways. if you want some data to back that up, see "The Ape who Understood the Universe" for an overview. To take one quick example, just look at porn usage rates. If men and women had the same sex drives, they'd use porn at the same rates. But no, porn is overwhelmingly used by men.

    This makes sense from an evolutionary point of view. Men are predisposed to "spread their seed," so they need a high sex drive. Women, otoh, have to be particular about their sex partners, because of the risk entailed with pregnancy. That is reflected in a differential sex drive.
    I respectfully disagree.

    The evolution argument sounds plausible at first, but in reality women are more promiscuous and hence have more STDs.

    Also, my anecdotal experience, first as well as second hand, clearly tells me that women have a MUCH higher sex drive.

    Quote Originally Posted by McDudeski McGee View Post
    I witnessed something similar when temporarily working graveyard in a warehouse. Fathers have no idea how their little sweethearts behave when they think no one is looking. Young women throw themselves at the shitbags, and the greater shitbaggery manifested by the shitbag, the more shameless the women become in pursuit of shitbagness. Act like a drug addict or a gangbanger or a jailbird or a pathetic loser and women just can't control themselves.

    It probably has something to do with the way humans evolved in the late Pleistocene. In a modern environment if you have your shit together women will place you in the safe and boring categories. The exception is when you are at the top of a hierarchy -- and I mean a hierarchy, not the hierarchy. I've seen them throw themselves at CEOs in companies both large and small. They like the top dog; it doesn't matter if the man is dominant or lame, or even a big fish in a small pond. While men judge each other by personal characteristics, these are like colors women cannot see; there are other things going on that flip switches in their brains.
    They only throw themselves at high earners for the money. The guys they really wanna fuck are the psychotic hobos.

    And you guys are overthinking this. Women are emotional and the sex with a violent weirdo is much more exciting than some stable nerd. It’s really not very complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeenThereDoneThat View Post
    It's well known that women in porn get paid more than men. But I suppose this could be a supply and demand failure. Even though it's easier to get women than men, porn makers don't consider what they actually have to pay and just give women more out of generosity.

    40+ years of adult experience, and living in a big city with a significant homeless/hobo population, I've never once witnessed or heard of a "9 or 10" getting with a hobo. But maybe all these guys keep it on the sly, so they don't have the highly paid employed and better dressed getting in on their action. All the PUA lecturer types would be teaching their students how to play hobo, and there'd be 1000 guys on every street corner..
    LOL! A lot of hobos are old, wasted and crazy.
    Those guys are of course not the ones doing the fucking. The guys I meant are at least young, with a big dick and still violent and with fight in them.

    Maybe the term ‘hobo’ is a bit misleading here. Think of a lowlife, badboy, psycho, criminal kinda bum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unboxxed View Post
    The hobo is one step up from being a dog on the street. I mean an actual dog. Women like the beast factor, I'm hearing. A Chad is a bit of a beast, eh?
    Indeed. That pretty much sums it up.
    Last edited by Bam; November 15, 2021 at 4:44 PM.

  11. #71

    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bam View Post
    I respectfully disagree.

    The evolution argument sounds plausible at first, but in reality women are more promiscuous and hence have more STDs.

    Also, my anecdotal experience, first as well as second hand, clearly tells me that women have a MUCH higher sex drive.
    Well, respectfully, your anecdotal experience doesn't mean anything in this context. We're talking about research that repeatedly confirms that there are different population averages, with sex drive measured in many different ways in hundreds of studies. N of 1 doesn't stack up against careful observation of millions.

    Of course there will be exceptions. We're talking about differences between population averages, but those averages fall under a normal distribution curve, meaning they're spread all over the place, some higher, some lower. Some men won't be very sexual, for instance, and some women will be highly sexual. Overall, though, men's sex drive, on average, is higher than women's. That's a well-established fact. Exceptions (which could include your anecdotal experience) don't contradict that.

    As for "women have more STDs:"

    "Women are also biologically more vulnerable to STDs than are men. Women are more susceptible to STDs during sexual intercourse because the vaginal surface is larger and more vulnerable to sexual secretions than the primarily skin-covered penis."

    https://www.fhi360.org/sites/default...overed%20penis.
    Last edited by Eddie Haskell; November 15, 2021 at 5:40 PM.

  12. #72

    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    Well, respectfully, your anecdotal experience doesn't mean anything in this context. We're talking about research that repeatedly confirms that there are different population averages, with sex drive measured in many different ways in hundreds of studies. N of 1 doesn't stack up against careful observation of millions.

    Of course there will be exceptions. We're talking about differences between population averages, but those averages fall under a normal distribution curve, meaning they're spread all over the place, some higher, some lower. Some men won't be very sexual, for instance, and some women will be highly sexual. Overall, though, men's sex drive, on average, is higher than women's. That's a well-established fact. Exceptions (which could include your anecdotal experience) don't contradict this.
    For sure. Conclusions about objective shared reality from personal experience takes extreme caution. Although a "Chad" may have seen many promiscuous women, it certainly cannot be concluded all women exhibit the same behaviors and interests. Maybe the drive is there and it's sublimated in other directions. I've seen numerous surveys concluding most women put shopping above sex.
    Last edited by BeenThereDoneThat; November 15, 2021 at 10:41 PM.

  13. #73
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    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    Well, respectfully, your anecdotal experience doesn't mean anything in this context. We're talking about research that repeatedly confirms that there are different population averages, with sex drive measured in many different ways in hundreds of studies. N of 1 doesn't stack up against careful observation of millions.

    Of course there will be exceptions. We're talking about differences between population averages, but those averages fall under a normal distribution curve, meaning they're spread all over the place, some higher, some lower. Some men won't be very sexual, for instance, and some women will be highly sexual. Overall, though, men's sex drive, on average, is higher than women's. That's a well-established fact. Exceptions (which could include your anecdotal experience) don't contradict that.
    Do you have any links to those studies?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeenThereDoneThat View Post
    For sure. Conclusions about objective shared reality from personal experience takes extreme caution. Although a supposed "Chad" may have seen many promiscuous women, it certainly cannot be concluded all women exhibit the same behaviors and interests. Maybe the drive is there and it's sublimated in other directions. I've seen numerous surveys concluding most women put shopping above sex.
    Calling me a “supposed chad” implies that I am lying and that is not a basis for any good-faith discussion.

    I have the impression that you and some others on here have very limited or at least very blue-pilled sexual experiences with women and simply believe in the facade these women put on.
    Women usually do not openly display their promiscuity. They never, ever admit what they really do, let alone what they fantasize about. What you are seeing is the very tip of the iceberg.

    Surveys are meaningless. If you ask women about their sexual behavior, they’re always gonna lie. That’s why you see ridiculous numbers for supposed sexual partners in these surveys.

    There are also supposed “studies” that claim that men think about sex every few seconds. I don’t know about you guys but I don’t run around all day thinking about sex.

    In my opinion academia can’t be trusted in this regard and the whole thing is a big case of psychological projection of women’s sexual depravity onto men.

    I know that this is not an argument, but I prefer to trust in my extensive experience in this matter over a bunch of scientist eggheads who don’t have a clue about how women operate.
    Last edited by Bam; November 15, 2021 at 8:31 PM. Reason: .

  14. #74

    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bam View Post

    Calling me a “supposed chad” implies that I am lying and that is not a basis for any good-faith discussion.

    I have the impression that you and some others on here have very limited or at least very blue-pilled sexual experiences with women and simply believe in the facade these women put on.
    Women usually do not openly display their promiscuity. They never, ever admit what they really do, let alone what they fantasize about. What you are seeing is the very tip of the iceberg.

    Surveys are meaningless. If you ask women about their sexual behavior, they’re always gonna lie. That’s why you see ridiculous numbers for supposed sexual partners in these surveys.

    There are also supposed “studies” that claim that men think about sex every few seconds. I don’t know about you guys but I don’t run around all day thinking about sex.

    In my opinion academia can’t be trusted in this regard and the whole thing is a big case of psychological projection of women’s sexual depravity onto men.

    I know that this is not an argument, but I prefer to trust in my extensive experience in this matter over a bunch of scientist eggheads who don’t have a clue about how women operate.
    I dropped the "supposed" because I can't know a person's real history from an internet discussion. The point about making conclusions from personal impressions still holds. If we're going to make blanket conclusions about entire populations based on limited personal experience, it's an invitation to being dismissed. Maybe it isn't a big deal here in discussion with others who have come to similar ideas through various paths. But as this becomes more public, it could be important for debate. As presented by the "news" there's typically two sides to a story. And they already dismiss any men's movements as a bunch of crackpots making blanket misogynistic conclusions. For confirmation they draw on the opinion of Suzy Feminist PHD Full Professor of Women's Studies at Amherst for 30 years, who can weave a tale based on pseudo scientific babble, including extensive surveys and experiments. Until the college system collapses it's likely they will assumed credible by the masses as the experts.

    I don't easily believe much of what people claim, and that's based on a lifetime of experience.

  15. #75

    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bam View Post
    Do you have any links to those studies?

    [....] I know that this is not an argument, but I prefer to trust in my extensive experience in this matter over a bunch of scientist eggheads who don’t have a clue about how women operate.
    I gave a source earlier. It summarizes some of the main findings, and you can find citations there.

    If you want to rank your own personal experience above a wealth of research, that's fine. Personally, I trust the results of careful research conducted over decades (especially when those results are consistent, and they line up with an understanding of how evolution operates) over the personal experiences of one dude on the internet.

    Since you are that dude, though, you may feel differently. No biggie.

  16. #76
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    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    I gave a source earlier. It summarizes some of the main findings, and you can find citations there.

    If you want to rank your own personal experience above a wealth of research, that's fine. Personally, I trust the results of careful research conducted over decades (especially when those results are consistent, and they line up with an understanding of how evolution operates) over the personal experiences of one dude on the internet.

    Since you are that dude, though, you may feel differently. No biggie.
    Your source was in regards to STDs. You have a valid point there!

    I was interested in studies you mentioned here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Haskell View Post
    Well, respectfully, your anecdotal experience doesn't mean anything in this context. We're talking about research that repeatedly confirms that there are different population averages, with sex drive measured in many different ways in hundreds of studies. N of 1 doesn't stack up against careful observation of millions.

    Of course there will be exceptions. We're talking about differences between population averages, but those averages fall under a normal distribution curve, meaning they're spread all over the place, some higher, some lower. Some men won't be very sexual, for instance, and some women will be highly sexual. Overall, though, men's sex drive, on average, is higher than women's. That's a well-established fact.

  17. #77
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    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by BeenThereDoneThat View Post
    I dropped the "supposed" because I can't know a person's real history from an internet discussion. The point about making conclusions from personal impressions still holds. If we're going to make blanket conclusions about entire populations based on limited personal experience, it's an invitation to being dismissed. Maybe it isn't a big deal here in discussion with others who have come to similar ideas through various paths. But as this becomes more public, it could be important for debate. As presented by the "news" there's typically two sides to a story. And they already dismiss any men's movements as a bunch of crackpots making blanket misogynistic conclusions. For confirmation they draw on the opinion of Suzy Feminist PHD Full Professor of Women's Studies at Amherst for 30 years, who can weave a tale based on pseudo scientific babble, including extensive surveys and experiments. Until the college system collapses it's likely they will assumed credible by the masses as the experts.

    I don't easily believe much of what people claim, and that's based on a lifetime of experience.
    It is smart not to believe anybody. I totally get that.

    But I am not trying to make some mental argument. People don’t base their actions on rational thinking anyways and I am also not part of some movement where I am trying to change the minds of men, women or feminists.

    Throughout my life I always had a gut feeling about things, an intuitive understanding if you might call it that. And that feeling has never failed me.
    It was for example that feeling that told me to go monk and be cautious of women. Turns out 15 years later, my feeling was righr.

    In this case I am just 100% percent certain that I am right. My opinion is based on my own extensive experiences, talks with friends of mine (other “chads”), intimate talks with many women and countless observations.

    For me it is part of taking the red-pill to realize that women actually have a higher sex drive than man. Once you see it, you just can’t unsee it…

    We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

  18. #78

    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bam View Post



    For me it is part of taking the red-pill to realize that women actually have a higher sex drive than man. Once you see it, you just can’t unsee it…
    If it's looked at as a drive possibly satisfied in a variety of different ways, we may not be too far apart in conclusions. I haven't met many women who weren't obsessively focused on satisfying their desires. A lot of them aren't jumping on other human beings, but look past the public persona and there's usually something obsessive/compulsive going on. Shopping sure appears to be a "sexual" process for many of them. I've seen some who come close to breaking out moaning when they're at a sale. I got a chance to observe one extreme woman. She stands in line at sales, so that's foreplay. Paying at the cash register is orgasm. Then satisfied she has to go home and take a nap. And she's addicted to the process, starts planning the next round shortly after finishing the last. Her house is loaded to the rafters with stuff. This is how women end with a closet filled with 600 pairs of shoes.

    The human mixture of drives, social controls, inhibitions, and other complications makes for some weird behaviors.

  19. #79
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    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by BeenThereDoneThat View Post
    If it's looked at as a drive possibly satisfied in a variety of different ways, we may not be too far apart in conclusions. I haven't met many women who weren't obsessively focused on satisfying their desires. A lot of them aren't jumping on other human beings, but look past the public persona and there's usually something obsessive/compulsive going on. Shopping sure appears to be a "sexual" process for many of them. I've seen some who come close to breaking out moaning when they're at a sale. I got a chance to observe one extreme woman. She stands in line at sales, so that's foreplay. Paying at the cash register is orgasm. Then satisfied she has to go home and take a nap. And she's addicted to the process, starts planning the next round shortly after finishing the last. Her house is loaded to the rafters with stuff. This is how women end with a closet filled with 600 pairs of shoes.

    The human mixture of drives, social controls, inhibitions, and other complications makes for some weird behaviors.
    You just described the same relationship heroin addicts have with their dealers!

    I see female compulsive nature as the single greatest threat to me, myself, and my person! They're like Junkie Monkeys and we're just trees in the jungle they forage for fruit, consume, then leap to another tree!

    As for me, I'm a branchless grease pole with a pile of dead monkeys surrounding me!

    The legal and social paradigm makes it unthinkable to be a monkey-branch tree!

    It's not out of hatred or animosity that makes me react this way, but rather the painful bite you receive right before the monkey leaps to another tree.

    We live in a world full of teeth, the rules are don't get bitten, and avoid being eaten! I don't make the rules or the path one needs in order to escape and avoid the carnivorous consumption!

    When men don't value their lives, they'll walk into a lions den full well knowing and not caring, he's conditioned for consumption and thinks he's the food, and makes peace with that.
    Tower's Book of Survival:

    Rule #401. First you eat the dogs, then you eat the dogfood.

  20. #80

    Re: Is sex all that great??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bam View Post
    Your source was in regards to STDs. You have a valid point there!

    I was interested in studies you mentioned here:
    Yes, I know. The source is mentioned above -- the book, The Ape That Understood the Universe. That just happened to be the most recent thing I read confirming it. There are many sources. You could do a google search and come up with a bunch of them.


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