Thread: The Ghost and the machine

The problem


Last week I had the unpleasant surprise of finding out that another MGTOW forum I use had an issue of doxing. The situation is confusing, so I will not talk about it. But for precaution I simply terminated my account, for all that is worth.

Being a law abiding citizen, exercising its natural born (and legal) right of free speech, in a European western democratic country, I had nothing to hide when joining these MGTOW forums. Therefore I used email accounts with my own name.

Out of the situation described above, I decided to change the email account of this forum to an anonymous email account instead, like a true ghost should do. You have to believe when I say my country is especially tolerant in the internet realm. I could even access MGTOW forums at work, the firewall did not censor political sites (this is not a political site, but feminists dont see it that way).

So, to my surprise I just found out that my email provider was blocking the confirmation email from this site. Had had my account locked the last week because I could not receive the confirmation email. I asked for help from the admins, and they would resend the email, but to no avail.

Finally I tried an outlook account and confirmed: my national email provider is censoring email from this site.

I cannot understate how troubling this is. Email is not something that you block at a whim. There is no coincidence here, it is a deliberate act of censorship, and worrying giving the natural tolerance of my country.

This got me thinking about ghosting. You do not hide or avoid people, that is not ghosting. To ghost is to be just like anyone else, indistinguishable from all the blue pills. But if you want to speak about red pill things, then you need to use sites like this.

The internet

To be in the internet is like sending letters with your address in it written by default. Anyone at the post office knows who is writing and to whom. Using a VPN is like writing a letter to a redistribution service, anyone at the post office knows you are trying to hide the destination. It is possible that the letters delivered to such redistribution services are cross-refenced, you just need to mark them in and check them out, and voila: you have the destination.

Worst, recent operational systems are permanently transmitting information to the internet. I would not be surprised if the browsing history is one of such information... All for our own good, of course.

Browsers are also huge chunks of software where you can hide several types of spying. Android smartphones and tablets are especially worrying, because the blatantly cross-reference your contacts, your location, the wifi-networks you connect and the unique identification of your machine. Did you stop to wonder why your mobile number is becoming so necessary for registering and obtain things like an email account?

Google offers you a large number of free services, from the OS of your phone, to your browser, to the videos you see, to email, or the maps you use. Inadvertently you are providing this company with your ideas, your tastes, your whereabouts. All your emails go through detailed scrutiny by smart algorithms. If you buy an airplane ticket you start getting publicity about the country you visit.

Now we shop online, and we pay with online services. You smartphone can pay your physical shopping, you can send money to your friends and pay your bills.

Everything is connected and points to you.

And all this without even talking about social networks, because those things show the people you are connected to, the things you enjoy or dislike, and are able to shape your thinking.

The machine



Once you see the possibilities of the technology and what big online companies are doing you can only reach one conclusion: we have all the makings of a dystopian tyranny, the likes of it not even the big brother from Orwell's 1984. In that book the police only had snitches to work with, not all your words, thoughts, likes and dislikes, you whereabouts, your acquaintances, all your correspondence and where you spend your money.

The surveillance machine is established. You are watched, and all your activities depend of the internet. If needs be you can be denied service, as it already happens in China with the "social score". Thousands of people were denied travelling by plane or rail, because of nebulous political criteria without appeal or recourse.

And the worst of it is that you cannot predict what will hurt you or not. The "agencies" are now storing metadata about everybody. If you become a person of interest, then they already know everything there is to know about you. It is easy in a few years to look back at this data with new algorithms and compile lists of retroactive sins were never imagined before. The metoo movement is but a pale shadow of what is possible in digital format.

The oppression machine is established, it only needs to be activated with a upgrade of code.

Our only safeguard is that we live in free democratic countries, under the rule of law. Remove this and the prospects are terrifying.

MGTOW

When we talk of men going their own way then we are not talking about a religious sect with terrorist intentions. In fact MGTOW want to be left alone and mostly speak of NFG, being more stoic than anything else.

MGTOW is not political, and while many have a more conservative view, there are also others that have a more left-leaning/socialist viewpoint. There are those that oppose emigration, and resent the political/social protection of the Muslims, but no more than the rest of society. The difference is the freedom of speech enjoyed in MGTOW forums, were you dont have the usual SJW's thought police that prowl other internet sites.

Socially MGTOW are very disruptive in the sense that they speak the truth. A truth so powerful that can reshape society if men everywhere were able to listen to it.
But like the matrix movie, most men are blue pill to the core and would die protecting the society that hates them instead of listening to MGTOW wisdom. As much as MGTOW is growing, it is a small non-vocal minority that knows you can take a horse to the water, but you cannot force him to drink. The majority is a dangerous blue pill white knighting zombie horde.

So, neither politically and neither for security reasons makes sense to censor MGTOW. The conclusion is that culturally and socially there is a tightening of the knot.

This is indicative of a slipping of the machine to the realm of thought policing.

And what are the acceptable thoughts? One has to just look at what is promoted and the the propaganda: its the gynocentric view.

The Future



In my youtube favorites I can find a TED talk "meeting the enemy: inside the men's rights movement". I have never seen it, but apparently youtube thinks I should. I cannot fail to notice the contradiction between the words "enemy" and "rights", because you say you have rights then you are the enemy.

Men are not at war. Men are the ones being relentlessly exploited, destroyed and oppressed, and yet the MRM only ask for men's rights to be recognized. AND THAT MAKES THEM THE ENEMY! That alone shows you all that you need to know, who is oppressed and who is the oppressor.

I think my social score is already screwed. I see the way we are slipping into a tyrannical technological machine. And I would like to discuss in this thread ideas about how to live and ghost under the coming oppression.

How to communicate? How to blend in with the mob?

What are your ideas and experiences about this issue?

Finally I tried an outlook account and confirmed: my national email provider is censoring email from this site.

I have yet to experience this, but sometimes I have had trouble logging on. I have gotten this or that error message, and to be honest it is terrifying because I need this community for personal growth.

I cannot understate how troubling this is. Email is not something that you block at a whim.

I know how you feel sir, and I salute you for saying this. I feel terrified by this phenomena.

This got me thinking about ghosting. You do not hide or avoid people, that is not ghosting. To ghost is to be just like anyone else, indistinguishable from all the blue pills. But if you want to speak about red pill things, then you need to use sites like this.

IMO a MGTOW should not consider ghosting to be avoidance - but rather to blend in and play the game but to your advantage. Isolation is dangerous, not good for humans.

And all this without even talking about social networks, because those things show the people you are connected to, the things you enjoy or dislike, and are able to shape your thinking.

I do not rely on social networks online. I have facebook etc - but put information very sparingly on it. That is one way I deal with privacy issues.

The surveillance machine is established. You are watched, and all your activities depend of the internet. If needs be you can be denied service, as it already happens in China with the "social score". Thousands of people were denied travelling by plane or rail, because of nebulous political criteria without appeal or recourse.

We have something similar in the UK - but obviously no one can be denied an air or train ticket. In China, I imagine the population are happy - you get what you asked for IMO. A lot of these Far East, and Middle Eastern countries, people gladly give up their freedoms for comfort and safety.

Again this is why I, even as a Middle Eastern person prefer the west. We are free to have our own thoughts and speech (although various groups are slowly chipping away at this right).

I am very afraid that we lose freedom of speech - it is the cornerstone of any decent and humane society. There should be no limits on free speech in my opinion. None - this should be a non negotiable.

So, neither politically and neither for security reasons makes sense to censor MGTOW. The conclusion is that culturally and socially there is a tightening of the knot.

This is indicative of a slipping of the machine to the realm of thought policing.

And what are the acceptable thoughts? One has to just look at what is promoted and the the propaganda: its the gynocentric view.

There you go sir.
The reason is simple. MGTOW refuse to pay for a woman, unless she offers something of value. MGTOW have cleverly figured out that buying drinks, dinners, gifts, jewellery, designer clothing and accessories, holidays, houses, cars etc etc has no return of value.

Most women now don't even want to open their legs after an expensive dinner and cocktails.

If you think about what I have just listed, how many industries do you think will suffer from this? Especially considering men make most of the money and women spend most of it? Of course .gov will be out to get us eventually.

In my youtube favorites I can find a TED talk "meeting the enemy: inside the men's rights movement". I have never seen it, but apparently youtube thinks I should. I cannot fail to notice the contradiction between the words "enemy" and "rights", because you say you have rights then you are the enemy.

Rights should not exist. No one should have rights and you are better off not having this word in your vocabulary. You should manipulate every person and situation to your benefit and milk the opportunities while they last.

But since I believe that MGTOW are moral individuals, you should help people who help you and return the favour. (regardless of whether they are male of female).

Men are not at war. Men are the ones being relentlessly exploited, destroyed and oppressed, and yet the MRM only ask for men's rights to be recognized. AND THAT MAKES THEM THE ENEMY! That alone shows you all that you need to know, who is oppressed and who is the oppressor.

Unfortunately the MRM are not the answer. They have been infiltrated. Once you have a dogma, a goal, and ideology and a leader(s), then any movement will be co-opted.

How to communicate? How to blend in with the mob?

You tell people exactly what they want to hear and nothing more. That should be enough for you to get ahead in life.

You can be forthright, honest and conscious if the situation allows, but do not give any information to anyone who may use it against you (work would be a classic example of where you should not share ANY personal information - even hobbies).

All mgtows that have a rudimentary understanding of game employ ghosting strategies. But those strategies will vary because each man goes his own way and his comfort level varies as well.

Censorship comes in cycles and right now we are nearing another peak because of how things are lining up in terms of technology, politics, economy, etc for 2020. All you can do is lay low and wait for the economic decline and polarized political atmosphere to subside.

I remember the Great Recession as a mid 20 something man. Sure, I had emerged from feeling isolated but it also was liberating. I was also afforded with extra free time as I had my work cut hours slashed in half. But that extra time gave me more time to study for school, my hobbies, and to refine my thinking. Ironically enough that was the happiest era of my life where I felt I turned that corner.

What people view as a disadvantage you should leverage it to an advantage. Technology and social media are obviously making a lockstep march toward some type of totalitarian dystopia in the future. But if you already can see where things are going and can read between the lines you have an edge for survival.

Facebook to me is a good tool to keep family and friends indulged with enough info so they don't try to pry into finding out every little detail. Social media for a man should be leveraged as a front for normalcy and to help you for employment or employers.

Credit rating is another big one and one a single man can leverage to great power if they understand how it works.

And another example is when to buy/sell goods when watching how social media heavily influences people to make the right choice at the wrong time and the wrong choice at the right time.

Thanks Opaque and Azure for your ideas about ghosting. It is indeed a good idea to give people what they expect, and the "social score" is just like any other game that you must know the rules to take advantage of.

The question behind my story, however, is twofold:
1st, we may already have a "mark" on our online historic profile by visiting MGTOW sites. It may bite us in the future if things turn even more gynocentric.

2nd, as stated before the prudent thing was to step away from everything MGTOW. However, as Opaque said, we recharge our red pill batteries in places like this, where freedom of speech still exists.

From the two points above, how can MGTOW talk online in a possible dystopian repressive future? Should it not be a concern now?

I always worried about these issues, but the latest episode has made me even more worried.

One thing I used to imagine was using a code where "allowed language" could have a double MGTOW meaning. If this was known publicly even better, as it would create a confusion between legitimate mainstream talk and MGTOW code.

Such code would allow MGTOW content to survive deplatforming. It could allow MGTOW discussions on major public media.

This round of censorship differs from the 90's in that it is focused on deplatforming or scrubbing everything from the internet. So I wouldn't be concerned with marks that much in my opinion. The internet is growing to the point that scrubbing is more likely than being preserved for the test of time. The challenge is preserving information as the great purge and scrubbing of this shared knowledge.

The concept of mgtow will re-emerge in another form. Happy Bachelor, confirmed bachelor, etc so those principles remain and think of mgtow like hydra. That is how mgtow started from a few sites and spread to many more due to conflict.

In the end if we save one man's life in the process with our simple discussions it was worth it IMO.

As a ghost...I ain't frit of spooks.

However, I do like a good clean cache, a regular scrub of browser history, cookies and offline data and those nasty little logs and a VPN for occasions and never, ever the manufacturer recommended browser.

Also, I like to keep an archive of snippets just in case I want to start my own site if lest they want to play whack-a-mole, Also, don't forget....jurisdiction restrictions, they are not the gods they think they are.

I can imagine a Monty-Python like sketch with an MGTOW being charged with unconsumerist behaviour and refusing to be utilised by his designated handlers.

To barricade yourself in a high castle is wrong if you are looking for protection.

The best place to hide is exactly among your enemies, the fox that runs aways is chased from the dogs through her smell while the fox running among the dogs spread her smells among theirs.

I kid you not, I often go on porn sites and check kinky stuff just to confuse any alghoritm checking me, I go to mgtow sites but I also open cuckold movies...I read conservative sites but I also open interracial novels sites, I check media from european right wing parties only to let a shemale clip running while I shave.

I have like 10 email addresses all with a different name with a full profile filled wherever I signed them.

I may be paranoid and probably mentally insane but at least no one is understanding sh1t of whats running in my mind.

One thing I used to imagine was using a code where "allowed language" could have a double MGTOW meaning. If this was known publicly even better, as it would create a confusion between legitimate mainstream talk and MGTOW code.

Great idea!
I think we need our own language. It should be English, but words that are MGTOW related should have their own specific meaning.

I am surprised there isn't a specific section on this forum for MGTOW words and phrases.

2nd, as stated before the prudent thing was to step away from everything MGTOW. However, as Opaque said, we recharge our red pill batteries in places like this, where freedom of speech still exists.

From the two points above, how can MGTOW talk online in a possible dystopian repressive future? Should it not be a concern now?

Manfred,

I think it will be a matter of time before MGTOW will be banned. The powers that be will employ some maniac, call him a MGTOW and get him to do so something atrocious. Then, they will come after forums like these. We are already being monitored.

This is why I insist on having very tough vetting procedures. Another idea we should have in mind is changing the MGTOW word for another word. I have several ideas which I could share in a different post.

I digress, but in my opinion, I think there comes a time when you have to accept the risk that your views will be unpopular and go ahead and speak your mind anyway.

I for one, am not interested in this or that browser. I know that MGTOW is considered anti-social, and I have taken the conscious action to declare my support for MGTOW (at least in my online persona).

This is why I would like to reiterate that any MGTOW should have two personalities. Public and Private.

Example: today I was on a business trip with my cunt manager. She kept blathering on about how Donald Trump is a 'bad' guy and doesn't deserve the presidency.

The conversation went like this:

Cunt manager: 'Trump is awful, he is against ethnic minorities, muslims and LGBT.'
Opaque: 'Yea, I have heard this, he is such a terrible person, how can anyone be judgemental to others human beings?'.

I allayed her anxieties and told her exactly what she wanted to hear.

Then, we parked the car to pump some petrol. She fucks off to the toilet. I take this opportunity to spit in her coffee, and take an expensive item of clothing and dispose of it in the bin.

She doesn't realise what happened until the end of the day as we finish our work.

Cunt manager: 'Oh where was such and such item of clothing?'
Opaque: 'Oh didn't you forget it at so and so meeting?'
Cunt manager: 'Really, no I am sure I left it in the car'
Opaque: 'Well I cannot find it, are you sure you didn't forget at so and so company?'

You get the idea.

You do what you can and milk each situation to your benefit. I have already come out as a Gay, ex-muslim at my company. I will soon start wearing make - up and will ask people to call me by a female name.

This may seem extreme, and I am not suggesting others do this, but you want to always leverage your position above the gynocracy as much as possible.

Then, in your private persona, for example here on this forum, you can feel free to share your thoughts and have genuine connection. Or you can do that with people you feel will protect you and won't rat you out.

What is a positive and negative about MGTOW is that it is all online. If we could gather men together and help each other out - we would become a much stronger force.

But then that opens us up to infiltration. So it's a double edged sword.

Originally Posted by Jackal

To barricade yourself in a high castle is wrong if you are looking for protection.

The best place to hide is exactly among your enemies, the fox that runs aways is chased from the dogs through her smell while the fox running among the dogs spread her smells among theirs.

I kid you not, I often go on porn sites and check kinky stuff just to confuse any alghoritm checking me, I go to mgtow sites but I also open cuckold movies...I read conservative sites but I also open interracial novels sites, I check media from european right wing parties only to let a shemale clip running while I shave.

I have like 10 email addresses all with a different name with a full profile filled wherever I signed them.

I may be paranoid and probably mentally insane but at least no one is understanding sh1t of whats running in my mind.

Interesting ideas that I didn't think of. It made me think on how I handle business and interact with others as well.

I think you're a little paranoid. I don't think there's any agency conspiring to impede the spread of MGTOW, unless you like in China or North Korea maybe. There are much worse things on the internet. The youtube de-platforming was just to try and keep the peace with feminists and SJWs at google, but it wasn't specifically targetted at MGTOW either, many other types of content were affected. I don't think any government cares about MGTOW, it's tiny and basically nothing in comparison to things they should be more concerned about such as religious cults, scientology, activists, cybercrime. As for the blocked email, the domain may have been put on a spam blacklist by feminists. If governments cared about MGTOW they'd have the site shut down rather than blocking emails.

However, MGTOW is socially unacceptable and for that reason it's best to keep it private. Some things I do:

- Use Brave browser
- Always surf MGTOW content using a private tab, in case someone looks at my browser history, and this also prevents youtube profiling you
- Use protonmail for email
- Use duckduckgo instead of google
- Connect the the internet behind a VPN. I use AirVPN. I've been doing this for years and I feel naked when I surf the internet without a VPN now. Also, when using a VPN, make sure that any DNS queries your computer makes go through the VPN, otherwise your ISP can still see which sites you visit. There are plenty of guides and tools to help with this. Search for "VPN DNS leak". In my case, I have configured my laptop to use google's free DNS servers 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4, which means my ISP doesn't see my DNS queries even with my VPN disabled.
- I also put some tape over my laptop's camera.

Some more paranoid things I do:

- Always pay with cash wherever possible
- I leave my phone on flight mode all the time and only turn it on when I need to make a call
- Always wear sunglasses in public

Relax and enjoy life. I don't think anyone is out to get us. And if they are, bring it on. I stick my middle finger up at this fucking clown world, without giving a single fuck.

No matter how low one's opinion of the deep state, it is still governed by the same laws of economics as the rest of us. Namely, if the state is going to round up its threats, it will go for the biggest threats with lowest cost first. That ain't us. Men who put their own interests above strangers aren't exactly rare, nor are they national security level. We are both too many and too low a danger.

What's more, most of us aren't what you would call zealots or ideologues.

I don't know how many times I've read what an 'MGTOW' really is, but not many descriptions really hit the mark. They don't describe me to my satisfaction. I'm not an 'MGTOWer' whatever that means.

I got drawn to MGTOW sites because I could rely on there being content about subjects no-one else would raise, discussed by above-intelligence guys, in an open and relatively civilised manner. Kind of what we used to expect of institutes of higher learning, before they became what they are today.

'MGTOW' can be summed up in a couple of sentences, and any average smart guy gets that very quickly. It doesn't require 10+ years of training. The persistence of MGTOW is simply due to the fact that the quality and originality of the material they discuss cannot be found elsewhere.

No state anywhere would be unaware of this, and if it tried to outlaw it's growing generation of smart lads it would only hurt itself. (The Khmer Rouge tried it, and look what happened to them).

MGTOW may well be a philosophy, but that's not it's selling point, nor is it a danger to anyone else. It's a proxy for 'smart guys talking about and doing what smart guys do'. Being original and a little scary to others, but ultimately, leading the way for everyone else - because it's the smart guys who see the dangers of the course humanity is following a little sooner than everyone else.

Originally Posted by UnFucked

I think you're a little paranoid. I don't think there's any agency conspiring to impede the spread of MGTOW, unless you like in China or North Korea maybe. There are much worse things on the internet.

Originally Posted by mongolking

No matter how low one's opinion of the deep state, it is still governed by the same laws of economics as the rest of us. Namely, if the state is going to round up its threats, it will go for the biggest threats with lowest cost first. That ain't us. Men who put their own interests above strangers aren't exactly rare, nor are they national security level. We are both too many and too low a danger.

The issue I see is not a willful decision to arrest MGTOW men as if they committed any crime.
What I am speaking relates to big data and things like "social credit".

What I fear is not one man or one organization looking at your life and deciding you are dangerous. What I fear is blind and dumb algorithms, what I fear is some idiot taking a list of all these bogus "hate speech" sites and retroactively affect your "social credit".

What I fear is a system no one understands but says your are dangerous because some dubious AI said so.

One just needs to look at the language of the left today to fear that it can ever be behind a totalitarian machine. They want to cancel people for their ideas not conforming theirs.

Originally Posted by Manfred

The issue I see is not a willful decision to arrest MGTOW men as if they committed any crime.
What I am speaking relates to big data and things like "social credit".

What I fear is not one man or one organization looking at your life and deciding you are dangerous. What I fear is blind and dumb algorithms, what I fear is some idiot taking a list of all these bogus "hate speech" sites and retroactively affect your "social credit".

What I fear is a system no one understands but says your are dangerous because some dubious AI said so.

One just needs to look at the language of the left today to fear that it can ever be behind a totalitarian machine. They want to cancel people for their ideas not conforming theirs.

Yup this is the reality we are heading towards.

If we are lucky the scrubbing and deplatforming of the internet will not allow the future data miners to find much. But technology changes and what we have known is very simple compared to where it will be in 50 years time.

Originally Posted by Azure Nomad

If we are lucky the scrubbing and deplatforming of the internet will not allow the future data miners to find much.

We have no such luck. Even if a site like this disappears frothy internet, the data about who was there and what he wrote is still stored. One just have to look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

The "massive data repository" is designed to cope with the large increase in digital data that has accompanied the rise of the global internet.

Purpose:
The data center is able to process "all forms of communication, including the complete contents of private emails, cell phone calls, and Internet searches, as well as all types of personal data trails — parking receipts, travel itineraries, bookstore purchases, and other digital 'pocket litter'."

Originally Posted by Manfred

We have no such luck. Even if a site like this disappears frothy internet, the data about who was there and what he wrote is still stored. One just have to look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

That is a valid point but because of the rise of quantum computing that storage of data has limitations in itself. Technology always outpaces what government can do. All government can do is try to play catchup.

Originally Posted by Manfred

The issue I see is not a willful decision to arrest MGTOW men as if they committed any crime.
What I am speaking relates to big data and things like "social credit".

What I fear is not one man or one organization looking at your life and deciding you are dangerous. What I fear is blind and dumb algorithms, what I fear is some idiot taking a list of all these bogus "hate speech" sites and retroactively affect your "social credit".

What I fear is a system no one understands but says your are dangerous because some dubious AI said so.

One just needs to look at the language of the left today to fear that it can ever be behind a totalitarian machine. They want to cancel people for their ideas not conforming theirs.

I think you're right. Online credit scoring is very likely to arise as a feature of life in the future, and algorithmic assessments will definitely play a part.

The bigger question is how many other people - completely unrelated to guys like us talking in uncomfortable ways about women, society and marriage - will also be 'inconvenienced' by not behaving suitably on the internet.

How many credit cards will be frozen, and how many passports rendered unusable, by someone being racist, sexist, misogynistic, offensive, politically unsound or sexually extreme? How many are attempting to pervert the course of justice, corrupt minors, commit fraud and blackmail? Subvert the state?

Deep access to everyone's secrets will unearth millions upon millions of new suspects, and millions upon millions of new prosecutable cases - some with very lucrative payoffs.

In the end, the state will always go after the low hanging fruit - the low cost prosecutions with high payoffs (the usual suspects, in other words. Expect massive growth in the pursuit of tax fraud against mega-corporates).

I imagine the biggest risk every state prosecutor runs is pissing off the wrong people unknowingly by being overzealous, and suddenly finding themselves as prey rather than predator. Hiding behind algorithms won't work, because as a species we have never got past the idea of holding someone responsible for everything, no matter how remote that person may appear from the offending cause.

Just imagine if Donald Trump, Nigel Farage or Vlad Putin got refused entry past immigration on a foreign trip by a 'dumb algorithm'.

We may all feel powerless as individuals, but like raindrops, get enough of us together and the forces become quite something (enough to give dam engineers fear for their own lives). Look at Hong Kong.