Thread: Financial Independence & The Carrot on The Stick.

Hello gentlemen,

Today, I want to write about “financial independence”(FI) and “retire early”(RE), the popular “FIRE” acronym. This is a topic that has my mind divided in two, specially after ingesting the Red Pill.

After all, is FI even achievable? Or is it just another brainwashing method from "Elites" to keep us “sheep” working and working and working, thinking that, someday, we will finally dip our toes in some crystal blue ocean on a paradise like beach before we croak? In other words, is FI just a carrot on a stick to keep us moving forward, working more hours, paying more taxes, without any proper finish line?

I know some men here have gone through divorce and had their income reduced and assets taken from them, just as I did. And I’m not writing this topic to brag or shame anyone here, if their financial situation is subpar. Far from this, I’d really like to know your opinion on this subject, and how does a Red Pilled man save or spend his money on himself!

After reading a lot of Red Pill content online, and also studying how to make money and, more importantly, how not to waste it and actually invest it and make it grow, it’s easy to see a broad behaviour difference between the Red Pilled Man and Blue Pilled Man:

Blue Pill: works his ass off for many decades of his life; makes a lot of money, but rarely spends it on himself; wife/girlfriend/sugar babies and his offspring take up most of his cash; intends to leave most of HIS own money for the aforementioned people, because that’s what a "REAL man" does for his family! Dies with regrets and without ever using his money for HIS own pleasure.

Red Pill: works his ass off; accumulates wealth, but knows when enough is enough! Uses money not to buy material assets, but to buy FREEDOM from the work treadmill (or “rat race” if you will); uses his money for himself and leaves little or nothing behind for his wife or offspring (if he has them), since he believes that they must EARN their own money. Dies without regrets and actually content that he lived his life to the fullest, within his own possibilities and limitations.

Now, here’s the thing: particularly in my case, I have a struggle between Hedonism and Stoicism, as a guide to live my life. I’ve had this even before the Red Pill. And these two “schools of thought”, if you will, have what I picture as different approaches to money/consumerism: Stoicism preaches gratitude in having little and enjoying what you already have; Hedonism seems to stimulate pleasure above all things, satisfaction of ones desires constantly. I believe I can trace a parallel between Saving vs. Spending money, right?

So how does one balance between the immediate satiation of ones desires and the prudence of saving ones money? Because, we all know we’ll get old someday, and I mean old as in unable to work or, due to physical limitations of our bodies, even enjoy life’s pleasures.

On the other hand, do we REALLY know if we’ll ever get old? Nobody knows when we are going to die or how much time we’ve got left on this planet. So, to embrace the idiotic “You Only Live Once - YOLO” mentality would be the answer? The old “Carpe Diem”, “live like there’s no tomorrow” attitude? How to abolish the constant fear that one might be “missing out” on life’s pleasures by being too conservative with their income?

At last, how do you guys manage your money? What’s your thoughts on this FI deal? When is “enough money” enough?

I’m close to achieving this so called FI, mostly due to my strong restrictions on my consumerism desires (from sport cars to fancy vacation destinations), but when I look around me, sometimes, I get the feeling that I could be enjoying more of life’s so called material pleasures more often (cars, bikes, nice steaks, craft beers, etc.), like I see so many people doing.

Hope to hear some insight from you guys, regardless of where you’re at financially speaking.

Cheers,
GJ

Owning your own house, living debt free. Not spending money on stupid things. You don't have to earn a lot of money to achieve FI. You just have to be conservative in your spending. I don't mean having a joyless life either. I look at people I work with, $5 coffees, $20 lunches, driving in to work, paying for parking instead of getting the train. On top of that maybe they smoke as well.

How much do they spend each day just getting to work?

Throw in their mortgages, wives, kids, expensive cars, going overseas for holidays or to see their families.

They would have to feel like they are drowning.

$10.00 a gallon gas= Honda 110

$10.00 a gallon heating oil= outdoor wood furnace

$10.00 a pound groceries= Chickens, big garden, fruit trees

Any more than $10.00= Civil War.

OP- RE: Your questions on when to save and when to splurge. I separate my money in my mind. Money for my needs. Money for my wants.

The needs fund is as you might guess. Shelter, food, clothes and all the things you need to live.

My things I want money I make from gifts, side hustles, profit from hobbies etc. I've fixed and sold things. Flipped things and so on. That's the money I spend on spoiling myself. Over the years I have a good size fund. I never rob from the essential fund for something I want. If I don't have the cash in the play fund. I just don't get the item.

Thinking that way has kept the bills paid. Set aside an emergency fund. Plus money to save.

It has removed 99% of the guilt from enjoying some toys now and then. As that fund will allow.

Being a serious biker, I was never sure I'd live to grow old. But I did. My fiscal planning could have been better too, but it worked out in the end. I only left one year early, but if you're going to get social security leaving too early will hurt you. I'm not rich but am taking home more than I did working.

My body took a beating though, my legs don't work so good anymore. Some was my fault, as I was once a big skier. But a lot of it came with the territory of being a forestry technician. These guys doing Jackass videos and jumping off shit are idiots. They ever get old, half of them won't be able to walk.

I live well within my means, and have some savings, but am no financial expert. There's too many cars and bikes that turned into underachieving money holes in my past. Oh well, it's easy to look back and see what you should have done.

Originally Posted by frog

Being a serious biker, I was never sure I'd live to grow old. But I did. My fiscal planning could have been better too, but it worked out in the end. I only left one year early, but if you're going to get social security leaving too early will hurt you. I'm not rich but am taking home more than I did working.

My body took a beating though, my legs don't work so good anymore. Some was my fault, as I was once a big skier. But a lot of it came with the territory of being a forestry technician. These guys doing Jackass videos and jumping off shit are idiots. They ever get old, half of them won't be able to walk.

I live well within my means, and have some savings, but am no financial expert. There's too many cars and bikes that turned into underachieving money holes in my past. Oh well, it's easy to look back and see what you should have done.

When I was a kid we played on monkey bars, now they ski on monkey bars!

I always liked wooden terrain park features and for the most part avoided the steel features (monkey bars) for my own safety!

Originally Posted by Kryptic

Owning your own house, living debt free. Not spending money on stupid things. You don't have to earn a lot of money to achieve FI. You just have to be conservative in your spending. I don't mean having a joyless life either. I look at people I work with, $5 coffees, $20 lunches, driving in to work, paying for parking instead of getting the train. On top of that maybe they smoke as well.

How much do they spend each day just getting to work?

Throw in their mortgages, wives, kids, expensive cars, going overseas for holidays or to see their families.

They would have to feel like they are drowning.

I didn't elaborate on not having to live a Joyless Life. At the moment I would love to buy a new guitar. No reason for it, I have a few already. It's purely for fun. There was a sale at one place, 15% off. I figure though that with the cost of living going up as well as the recent rise to mortgage interest rates that shops that sell discretionary (ie non essential) items are going to have more sales to make up for the drop in business.

It sometimes just pays to wait. I also drive a 20 year old car which costs little to insure. It still runs just fine. I only upgraded from my Apple I4S phone last year!

Don't fall into a trap of feeling like you have to keep up with the Jones' as you don't know how much debt the Jones' are in to keep up appearences!

I had nothing of value from age 0-32. When I started making good money, I started to try to live 'the life'. Then, I rapidly learned the hard way that booze, women, food, cars, boats, homes and any other 'possessions' wouldn't make me happy. In fact, all I learned is that they'd make me, at best, empty, disappointed and miserable. I learned that you don't own possessions. Rather, they own you.

At first, this epiphany was stunted, barely recognizable and mostly subconscious, but following my divorce and my subsequent intro to MGTOW, said epiphany rapidly came to a very ferocious and conscious fore. Thanks to well calculated risk, my divorce, rather than depleting me, enriched me. I'm very fortunate, as it has so many countless millions of less fortunate men, that divorce didn't ruin my future. MGTOW truly saved my life.

So to sum up, after getting the right education, then working hard/smart in my career, then surviving divorce, in large part thanks to MGTOW, I realized that I could easily make my life highly fulfilling without any further paid work and without much money, simply through pursuing the hobby I'd already pursued ever since the first computer was released to the GenPop. Now, thanks to modern technology, until I can no longer, I'll spend the rest of my life living my one and only dream.

In the end, I learned that the one thing I had at the beginning, which was paid for by the blood, sacrifice, sweat, tears and tragedy of young men I'd never met, that my freedom was by far the most valuable asset I could have ever possibly possessed. I think about those dead boys every day and, from time to time, their deaths brings me to tears.

Every few years, I only need to spend $2K to $3k on a tech refresh to keep the dream alive. Beyond that, I only need simple foods, minimal transportation and adequate shelter. With the aid of my ever inquisitive brain, YT 4K Drone Cinematic videos and powerful computer hardware for simulation, I can travel the world in ways millionaires of the past couldn't have possibly dreamed - from a bird's eye view, in the cockpit of several multi million dollar combat aircraft. My total monthly expenditures now run around 2.5K per month - and yet I posses everything I could possibly desire.

Given all the above, I consider myself the most fortunate man to have ever lived. I acquired enough wealth to live my dream and, thanks to MGTOW, enough wisdom and knowledge to hopefully keep from losing it all.

No woman is more beautiful than your freedom.

The Hedonic Treadmill is real. Learn how to manage it.

Until it completely destroys your life, ignorance is sheer bliss.

Go MGTOW. Live the life of a free man.

If you let it, the world will take you for everything you have. Don't let it.

Originally Posted by Granola Junkie

Today, I want to write about “financial independence”(FI) and “retire early”(RE), the popular “FIRE” acronym. This is a topic that has my mind divided in two, specially after ingesting the Red Pill.

FI = Depends on your standard of living. Living on a small homestead growing your own food and meats in a rural part of the country paying next to no land rates (taxes) will require less than renting in the city that you can not afford to buy in. Living off the land is not everyone's dream life. Maybe it's living on a boat near the tropics eating sea food and making YT videos to pay insurance and license fees. I believe more you set yourself up for retirement the better off you will be.

RE = Retire, the trick is not to retire. Maybe not work for someone else. If you stop you will no longer have what you need. How many men have you known or heard of that have retired then died within a few years? I know of a few and I wonder how long they would have lived if they kept working. The male body is designed by evolution to work, both mentally and physically. Health depends on staying active mentally and physically. Women don't have the same need, they can stop both and still live for years... Lucky them, but don't you try it.

For me, I am way behind where I should be for retiring. I'm trying to set myself up for a more relaxed lifestyle, but I will always need to "work" for some sort of a income.

In recent years, those that have retired or those that are no longer productive have a target on their back. Some class them as "Useless Eaters" others look at the money that is tied up waiting for the person to die before taxes can be collected and money be spent or the cost of old age full time care. I expect there will be a strong focus on "these problems" in the near future. WEF population reduction 8 billion to 800 million will include retirees. You can do your part to help them... Don't forget to get your flu shot!!!

On the eve of Independence Day in America, I content myself with the knowledge that one of my forefathers probably shot one of Spooky's forefathers.

I'm out. Peace.
- Owen, 07.03.2022

When you talk about "FIRE" you talk about the American dream. You get a lot of money and you live like a king. That is a dream for a reason. If you want some real life examples look at the lottery winners. Most of them end up broke just 5 years after winning millions at the lottery. Most of them say that winning the lottery brought a lot of problems in ther life because everyone wanted to get a handout. Some even say that winning the lottery was the worst thing that happened in their life because they spent the money and their friends and familly stopped talking to them because they didn't share it. So you be the judge if this is something you really want or if it's maybe that you believed in a dream sold to you.

Hedonism is fun for a while but your dopamine system will get overloaded and you will suffer from depression because of it. Stoicism is a much better philosophy if you want to get results. This doesn't mean you can't do anything fun but you must exercise restraint and focus on what's important.

Much has already been said. My 2 cents: I regard money as a form of energy. I see it as the universal barter currency and more or less as a game. Money awareness has been drilled into my skull from a very young age by my old man. I was born with a silver spoon. As a child I never had anything lacking and got the best stuff I needed. And the emphasis must be strongly put on "needed." I didn't get 1 cent worth more than what was necessary. Got spoiled twice a year: with my birthday and christmas. If I wanted something and neither of said dates was near, my dad told me: "fine, go buy it from your own savings." In 99,99% of the cases I decided I didn't need that thing that bad anyway.
Regarding FI. As I see it much people think that means being totally loaded, with a huge mansion, 5 sportcars and a big boat filled with naked women, sunbathing. Yes, that's FI of course. Only I see it as being wealthy enough that working isn't "mandatory" anymore. I have reached that point 2-ish years ago. If I'd want I could stop working now and live quite decently. Only not with said boats/ women/ house/ cars. I still like my work so I don't have any intention of quitting any time soon. And financially I'm a 67-er. I only don't show it at all. Because I don't want that attention. I like it when people vastly underestimate me.

As of stoic vs hedonic. At one point I found myself to be too stoic and wouldn't part of any cent I saved. I.o.w. I got poor in my own wealth. I asked a good friend, really good friend, for advice. And he brought up a very old, yet very true, cliche: "Simp, you can't take your money with you to heaven." So I "introduced" a dosed part hedonism in my life. If I want to have something, I want it now and I want the best possible. IDGAF about the costs (within some reason).

There's an old saying in financial circles that it's not your income that decides your wealth but your outcome. Living within your means is paramount to achieving FI.
Another extremely important part of achieving FI is to develop a well thought through budget and then sticking to it religiously. I can't stress this enough, without a sensible budget you'll fail, regardless of income levels or assets. The reason most lottery winners lose their wealth is because they fail to create a budget for themselves. Even Elon Musk has to have a budget. His monthly allowance might be more than we make in a decade, but it's still a budget that he must stick to.

When you create that budget you take a few things into consideration, and you create categories where you allocate different amounts of money. You have your fixed expenses like rent/mortgage, utilities, insurance, car payments. Those are non-negotiable and money has to be there to satisfy those expenses. Then you have a food/alcohol category. Here you can be a bit creative and save money by cooking most of your meals at home and shop at discount grocery stores if necessary. You allocate a fixed amount of money to this category and if there are funds left over at the end of the month, you can splurge on a restaurant meal and a visit to the local bar. You can experiment with this category a bit to see where you find the golden medium.
An entertainment category is next. Here you allocate funds to cover movies/concerts/etc. Personally, this category requires minimum funds for me. I prefer to watch movies at home and rarely go to any concert that isn't free. The travel category is larger for me. I realized a long time ago that rich experiences always trump frivolous possessions. But that's just me, for others it might be different. You can still create a frivolous possession category and put a bit of money into that until you have enough to get that thing. But you might find that waiting for the funds to add up can give you much needed perspective and you realize that you don't need that thing after all.
All other left over money can be saved or be used in a hedonistic way. If you stick to this budget you will have all bases covered AND have money left over for hedonism if you so desire. Now, if you find a country with a lower cost of living, you can reach the RE portion of your life sooner if you so desire.

On the eve of Independence Day in America, I content myself with the knowledge that one of my forefathers probably shot one of Spooky's forefathers.

I'm out. Peace.
- Owen, 07.03.2022

Most of the points I wanted to make have already been made. All I'll add is: Find a good investment team to help you invest. The pro assigned to you will help you avoid common pitfalls and help you balance your risk tolerance, age, lifestyle, and long-term goals. Plenty of online reviews of FAs and investment firms, so read them before you commit to one.

I personally have three investment teams, all operating independently. Each one knows I have two other teams managing my money, so it gives each one an incentive to do well, even in bad times like now. I review their performance(s) every fiscal quarter and hold their feet to the fire if I think they've dropped the ball.

Another point: Get to know the financials, at least moderately. You must be an informed investor, not just an investor. Pay attention to the pros who have a proven track record. A few are Stephen Moore, Larry Kudlow, Art Laffer. Avoid like poison the ones who are frequently wrong and/or whose philosophies are just plain bunk, disproven for decades. Watch reputable financial shows such as the ones on foxbusiness.com.

Hey guys,

Great responses all around! Thank you!

The overall message that I got is: live below your means, save, invest, don't buy useless crap, but do indulge yourself once in a while!

I don't see FI as a means to acquire expensive things, such as houses, cars, etc. I see it as a pathway to FREEDOM! Something that allows me to work because I want to and not because I need to (or else I won't be able to pay for even the basics that Chris007 mentioned above!)! And thus, "working" in something that isn't a grind day after day!

FI is a way to say "fuck off" to anyone who tries to exploit or bully me into submission!

Or, as Mr. Goodman explains in the video below, FI puts me in a position of "Fuck You" for the rest of my life!

Originally Posted by OwenWentFullMGTOW

Before COVID, another friend would go on cruises by himself. He says NOTHING beats the tranquility of being out at sea. Not the mountains, not lakes, zero, nothing at all. Now, he's from a landlocked state, so it doesn't take a genius to see where he'd find a cruise appealing.

A different friend likes rugged adventure kinds of stuff. So, his vacations tended to be camping, hiking, rafting, skydiving, whatever tf, all solo. Because there's no way in hell I'm doing any of that stuff. Fuck that, a vacation where getting eaten by a bear is a legit recreational hazard isn't a vacation at all in my book. Anyway, next year, he says he wants to try hang-gliding. Yeah, have fun with that, bro.

I was taking vacations for one prior to COVID. I enjoyed the peace and freedom of being able to sleep late on my vacation if I wanted to. You know, rather than rushing around like an idiot to keep some retarded wife's retarded schedule. If I wanted to get room service and chill out in bed munching beignets in NOLA, then that's what I did. If I wanted to wander around the French Quarter for an afternoon, then that's what I did. If I wanted to have a relatively early dinner at a Cajun restaurant at 5:30, then that's what I did.

This is a bit OFF TOPIC on this thread, but something in Owen's post caught my eye to how Red Pilled guys tend to travel alone.

It's something that interests me, since I rarely do so, and haven't done so in quite some time due to work, marriage, parenthood, etc.

I think I'll start a new thread sometime to discuss this "solo travel" lifestyle and tips on how to do so!