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  1. #1
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    This guy, Blue Collar Logic, makes some quality youtube content. And now he decided to take on the boss fight: The topic of MGTOW. I call it a boss fight because its so easy to not understand or misunderstand MGTOW. He challenged lots of key points and provided counter arguments. The only problem is, they are not they key points of MGTOW. They might be of incels or general red-pilled dudes, but not of MGTOW afaik. I provide a gist, so you can skip watching the video if you want.

    I present some of his points, as a short summary, and then I state my main point of this post, that spreading MGTOW directly has some problems. This might be relevant to someone who participates in "Action" part of MGTOW, but decided to make this post in Lounge because it does concern some broader concept of MGTOW.

    He talks about how his wife got fat and was unwilling to workout for his sexual pleasure, and then he says he himself was unwilling to find better work or earn more, to entice her. Okay, fine... moving on..

    Then he mentions how dudes watching porn have huge expectations from women. He asks to date a 6 or 7 instead of a 9 or 10 (SMV). He says that a 6 or 7 understands rejection and stuff, just like us men. Wow... at this point I was a bit annoyed and went into "WTF you talkin about dude ?!" mode.

    Then in the end he says that MGTOWs tend to focus on themselves. Building their life, body, career etc. All that makes them more desirable to women in the end. So he says that even if we went our own way, we are working to make ourselves more desirable to women, instinctively if not consciously. Now I literally wanted to throw up.

    That was the TLDR of what he said. He said some other things too, you can watch the video if you feel like. You might get irritated, bewarned !

    Now, based on his other videos I have seen, he seems like a pretty smart guy. So how come even he gets everything about MGTOW upside down. We all know the usual counter arguments to his points, so I am not going into that. I want to focus on why people get MGTOW wrong. There can be many reasons, but I can think of two main reasons :

    1. People tend to conflict "trigger event" with "final state". Sure, divorce rape, false allegation, and other bad things happen to men and that often acts as the last straw to pushing the guy into red-pill and sometimes eventually to MGTOW. This transition, from red pill rage to zen of MGTOW, can NOT be understood by a blue pilled or purple pilled. All they can understand are triggers, and then they base their understanding of MGTOW as a bunch of dudes pissed at women and/or system and very little else.

    2. There is no precise definition of MGTOW, no "bible" or "constitution" or anything of that sort. That means pretty much everyone is free to define their own version of MGTOW. This leads to people having weirdly (and hugely) diluted definitions of MGTOW which are nothing but a very weak purple pilled stuff (eg: combine married + nawalt + simping + still-looking-for-relationships + many other things all at the same time and then they call it their version of MGTOW...).

    Also, as a consequence of #1 above, when someone makes an incorrect content/video about MGTOW, like this guy, he gets piled on by people reciting bad things that happened to them. That actually ENFORCES the #1 above. Sure, sometimes the content creator is deliberately trying to sabotage/infiltrate, but I dont think thats the case everytime. And this is what I think is the case with this dude. I dont think he has wrong intentions, and I definitely dont think he is a stupid sheeple.

    This is why, when I talk red pills to someone, I dont focus on MGTOW. Because then they will google it and then will see gazillions of posts with bad things happening to men and will TOTALLY miss the point. If the person is on the smarter side of things, I will mention Propertarianism, and tell them to lookup on it (or ask me about it). Though propertarianism is HUUGE, and seemingly quite controversial, until and unless you process a LOT OF INFORMATION and put them all together. If the person is unlikely to do that, I refer them to things like Stoicism and general monkhood. All of those paths (propertarianism or stoicism etc) will lead to understanding of MGTOW as a very logical and rational reaction, not just to present mess of feminism and radical leftism, but also a reaction to traditionalism and sometimes even to how nature works. That is my solution, a very clumsy one, but still, I have found it to lessen the impact of random googling about MGTOW and getting mis-informed.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  2. #2
    Senior Member Knarley Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    The thing is, it doesn't matter if all sorts of people have a goofy idea of what MGTOW is. One can't explain being in a certain frame of mind. Being MGTOW, is a state of mind, a feeling, a life style.
    People don't understand martial arts, hunting, or being a mountain climber either. And that's OK. If you have to explain it, they won't get it any way.
    Improving one's self, physically or mentally is a choice for a better life, as long as you do it for yourself. One has to love themselves first, for if you don't, how can you truly love some one else? And if you don't love yourself, no one else will do it for you. For to be truly happy, one must be at peace with them selves. Try to explain that to someone who hasn't a clue.....
    As soon as she says "I do", she don't
    MOLON LABE......."Come take them"

  3. #3
    Senior Member Azure Nomad's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    PUA and a lot of red pillers put an emphasis on self improvement to attract women. So I think the assumption is that because mgtow are focusing on improving themselves that they are going a similar direction of PUA and red pillers.

    But yeah he is wrong in that MGTOW isn't about seeking approval with self improvement. And also a lot of MGTOW don't care or have moved on from self improvement and just want to relax and enjoy life.

    For me I never had a singular major trigger event that pushed me toward mgtow. I had a series of events that helped me lean that way but I never had a divorce (never married), worry about child support or run in with the law because of the gynocracy. I didn't have a red pill rage event as over time it just made more and more sense.

    It is like going to the park in your 20's and you only see the bench and the lake. But when you reach the 30s you see how the wind is directing the trees, how everything working in nature is working in harmony and how life goes on despite all that is wrong with the world.

    Increased understanding, heightened sense, and being able to read people is something that comes naturally when you accept going your own way as a man in my opinion.

  4. #4
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    Quote Originally Posted by Knarley Bob View Post
    One has to love themselves first, for if you don't, how can you truly love some one else? And if you don't love yourself, no one else will do it for you. For to be truly happy, one must be at peace with them selves. Try to explain that to someone who hasn't a clue.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Nomad View Post
    It is like going to the park in your 20's and you only see the bench and the lake. But when you reach the 30s you see how the wind is directing the trees, how everything working in nature is working in harmony and how life goes on despite all that is wrong with the world.

    Increased understanding, heightened sense, and being able to read people is something that comes naturally when you accept going your own way as a man in my opinion.
    Exactly ! This is exactly the part which is very difficult to convey. Its like telling them to cross a magical bridge which they cannot see !

    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Nomad View Post
    PUA and a lot of red pillers put an emphasis on self improvement to attract women. So I think the assumption is that because mgtow are focusing on improving themselves that they are going a similar direction of PUA and red pillers.

    But yeah he is wrong in that MGTOW isn't about seeking approval with self improvement. And also a lot of MGTOW don't care or have moved on from self improvement and just want to relax and enjoy life.
    Yeah, I have seen lots of people doing that, who are otherwise smart and have no evil intent. In their desperate attempt to understand us, they try to map their observations to their own experience, which is what everybody does when learning a new thing. But in this case, it seriously misleads them.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  5. #5
    Senior Member Opaque's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    Then he mentions how dudes watching porn have huge expectations from women. He asks to date a 6 or 7 instead of a 9 or 10 (SMV). He says that a 6 or 7 understands rejection and stuff, just like us men. Wow... at this point I was a bit annoyed and went into "WTF you talkin about dude ?!" mode.
    Most of the men I know in my vicinity don't have huge expectations. They actually lower their expectations overtime as they get older, and yet, they still don't get any pussy. The reason is simple: globalised world of tinder means even 2/3 hotness chicks go for 9/10 hotness guys. And they usually get sex from them. They will not get committed relationships. But having the sex in itself is enough for them to trick their primitive primate brains into thinking they have 'genetic legacy'.

    Women, at any scale above 4 or 5 will NOT understand rejection. The ones below 4, may understand rejection, but have only experienced it very sparsely in their lives. The reason is simple: women, on any level of the hotness scale are cowards. They will not approach a man, they will not initiate and they will not outwardly speak about their sexual desires.

    All that makes them more desirable to women in the end. So he says that even if we went our own way, we are working to make ourselves more desirable to women, instinctively if not consciously.
    There is a lot to be said about the 'unconscious'. He is right in one way. Many so called MGTOW work so hard on improving themselves, and yet they never actually ask themselves, why am I working so hard? Why am I struggling so much to achieve this or that? And is it worth it? Is it what I really want?

    2. There is no precise definition of MGTOW, no "bible" or "constitution" or anything of that sort. That means pretty much everyone is free to define their own version of MGTOW. This leads to people having weirdly (and hugely) diluted definitions of MGTOW which are nothing but a very weak purple pilled stuff (eg: combine married + nawalt + simping + still-looking-for-relationships + many other things all at the same time and then they call it their version of MGTOW...).
    This could be it. And it is our own fault I think for not clarifying the real meaning of MGTOW.
    Obviously there should be room for individual thought, interpretation and ultimately you want each MGTOW to live their own lives.

    However, MGTOW is still, as I see it, in the 'becoming' stage. It has not solidified, for good reason, because we are still exploring what it means to be a man in the modern world.

    This is why this forum is necessary, because we are here to listen to different viewpoints, and if they make sense, then we think about them and embrace them, if not then we reject them. And if some PUA or tradcon type tries to shove masculinity 2.0 down our throats, we tell him to go fuck themselves!

    Why? because ultimately, you have to have boundaries when you belong to any group. Otherwise, before long any Tom, Dick, and Harry will walk right in and dilute the who fucking community with blue pill, tradcon, and other viewpoints which are truly truly pernicious to the MGTOW way of thinking.
    A mother cannot raise a boy to be a man, not because he needs a father figure; but because she favours team vagina over her own son.

    Tradcon women are the most manipulative of all kinds of women, because they infect you with false hope.
    Radfems are your best friend, because they hate you and verbalise it - that's honesty!

    The red pill rage is a process which takes many many years - so be kind and patient with yourself.

  6. #6
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    Excellent Thread Gentleman, lots of nuggets of wisdom here that will help lurkers in the months and years to come. My philisophy is easy, just stay away from women. To me they are parasites, and more often than not ugly parasites.

  7. #7
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    Most of the men I know in my vicinity don't have huge expectations. They actually lower their expectations overtime as they get older, and yet, they still don't get any pussy. The reason is simple: globalised world of tinder means even 2/3 hotness chicks go for 9/10 hotness guys. And they usually get sex from them. They will not get committed relationships. But having the sex in itself is enough for them to trick their primitive primate brains into thinking they have 'genetic legacy'.

    Women, at any scale above 4 or 5 will NOT understand rejection. The ones below 4, may understand rejection, but have only experienced it very sparsely in their lives. The reason is simple: women, on any level of the hotness scale are cowards. They will not approach a man, they will not initiate and they will not outwardly speak about their sexual desires.
    I am imagining a normie going crazy with denial on hearing anything this blunt !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    There is a lot to be said about the 'unconscious'. He is right in one way. Many so called MGTOW work so hard on improving themselves, and yet they never actually ask themselves, why am I working so hard? Why am I struggling so much to achieve this or that? And is it worth it? Is it what I really want?
    Lets say all men (or most men), are doing everything so that they can have, what you are calling 'genetic legacy' above when talking about women. If this is true, then I think there are many men who are able to channel this instinct to their craft. I dont think Michelangelo was thinking about his children as legacy while painting the Sistine Chapel, I think his unconscious was okay with that painting being his legacy. Men who build, create or invent wonderful things, have their instinct putting a lot of weight on their creation as being their legacy, even at subconscious level. You cannot build great things without your subconscious mind playing along.

    But this guy is not talking about genetic legacy, he makes it about women. As if everything we are doing is to get more women, lol. This shallow statement cannot even explain many normal activities. One good example is video gaming. Women dont exist in high competitive gaming environments, say a fast paced shooter. And from my years of spending time in those environments, random dudes over internet put EXTREME effort in their game. Were they doing that for women ? I dont think so. Activities like these arent making you stronger, not making money, no woman is watching and getting amazed, no nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    This could be it. And it is our own fault I think for not clarifying the real meaning of MGTOW.
    Obviously there should be room for individual thought, interpretation and ultimately you want each MGTOW to live their own lives.

    However, MGTOW is still, as I see it, in the 'becoming' stage. It has not solidified, for good reason, because we are still exploring what it means to be a man in the modern world.

    This is why this forum is necessary, because we are here to listen to different viewpoints, and if they make sense, then we think about them and embrace them, if not then we reject them. And if some PUA or tradcon type tries to shove masculinity 2.0 down our throats, we tell him to go fuck themselves!

    Why? because ultimately, you have to have boundaries when you belong to any group. Otherwise, before long any Tom, Dick, and Harry will walk right in and dilute the who fucking community with blue pill, tradcon, and other viewpoints which are truly truly pernicious to the MGTOW way of thinking.
    This problem is going to stay for a very long time. For an outsider, those boundaries are invisible. Even if some of us happens to go and tell them, how they will know whose opinion is more correct, few people on one side vs a horde of "Tom, Dick and Harry" on other. This guy made a video about MGTOW, based on his own misleading experience and understanding, plus a crap ton of bad info on internet. Bad info can mean incomplete at best, or outright misleading at worst.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  8. #8
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    "red pill rage to MGTOW zen"... that's precisely how I feel. Thanks for such an enlightened synopsis! There's plenty of red pill rage moments, but the final acceptance of the situation and accompanying peace with the validity of the MGTOW decision, is the only zen.

    I went through thousands (not hyperbole) of red pill rage moments before reaching the decision to seek out MGTOW. It's a destination not reached in rage.

  9. #9
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarj View Post
    "red pill rage to MGTOW zen"... that's precisely how I feel. Thanks for such an enlightened synopsis! There's plenty of red pill rage moments, but the final acceptance of the situation and accompanying peace with the validity of the MGTOW decision, is the only zen.

    I went through thousands (not hyperbole) of red pill rage moments before reaching the decision to seek out MGTOW. It's a destination not reached in rage.
    Far beyond the rage I found anticipation, like a fighter in a ring that learns his opponents tell-tale style, the opponent (in effect) looses all advantage of surprise they once had to keep you off balance and locked in a state of reaction instead of proactive tactical evasion and striking without warning, surprise surprise, MGTOW was born, gaining the upper hand over inferiority by rule, default, and proxy, win win.

    in other words, our triggers become UNTOUCHABLE! ALL MANIPULATION CEASES FOREVER. We become battle hardened heartless bastards. Which is FINE by ME!

  10. #10
    Senior Member Insidious_Sid's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    He's just not that bright.

    In first half of video "My marriage ended mostly because I refused to fuck a fat woman with short hair."
    Second half of video: "MGTOW are just babies who refuse to settle. You need to lower your standards and learn to find fat women with short hair attractive."

    What. A. Fucking. Moron.

    This guy is an idiot. A Trad Con "believer". And his wife left him living in a fucking trailer on rented land, and now he's going to attract a shiny new mate in the mating arena? WITH WHAT?

    Women say it's not about the resources, but when you lose your job and she has to have her fucking spending monitored, she's gone.

    IT'S ABOUT THE RESOURCES. And his fat ex wife knew that she could still get the resources after she got rid of him. He's supposed to love her "no matter what" right? That's what women think. That the man can just force himself to find her attractive no matter how disgusting she becomes. That's innate female narcissism and entitlement right there. She can lose attraction for you, but you can't lose attraction for her. It's because you want her innnie more than she wants your outie.

    This guy is asking MGTOW to do something he couldn't even do himself, not even realizing we don't WANT a woman in our lives.
    He doesn't realize that other men do not believe they need to have a woman in their lives for it to be fulfilling and satisfying.
    He's projecting his internal rage at being lowered to near zero in SMV onto MGTOW.

    If he wants to attract a mate, he'd better start amassing the kinds of material things that women like to see a man display.

    I'd suggest he gets a second job and a minimum 2000 square foot house. With 36" doors throughout, for the lower-SMV fat women he's going to train his dick to get hard for.

    What. An. Idiot.

    Trad Con ramblings of a total fool ignored.
    - Feminism is Cancer.
    - Where have all the good men gone? Away. Far far away... from you.
    - NAWALT? Maybe, but EWALT means Russian Roulette is a much safer bet...

  11. #11
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    Quote Originally Posted by Insidious_Sid View Post
    He's just not that bright.
    ...
    What. A. Fucking. Moron.

    This guy is an idiot.
    ...
    What. An. Idiot.

    Trad Con ramblings of a total fool ignored.
    I warned that the video gonna be irritating !

    On serious note, yeah I also realized the same, and unsubbed from his channel. I dont need to listen to a simp who cant understand simple logic.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  12. #12
    Senior Member Opaque's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    He's projecting his internal rage at being lowered to near zero in SMV onto MGTOW.
    This is common enough. I see many so called 'men' when they find out that I have no interest in dating or marriage, they immediately start spouting 'be alpha bro' and try to seduce me with a tradcon narrative.

    I think this guy in the video is not a heterosexual and actually hasn't had sex with a women or even lived with one. I think he might be a closet homosexual.

    I have said it before, but indeed, indeed and indeed it is worth repeating:

    When someone tries to explain why MGTOW are irrational, what they are really saying is 'I cannot bring myself to agree with you guys, even if you are telling the truth'.

    Why?
    Because the truth is too much. It is simply too much to ask a man to swallow the red pill, whole. Heck, even I have some serious lapses!! I bought an expensive cocktail for some cunt last week, don't know why, I just did it out of habit!

    This is why we need to be sensitive to the men on this forum who may lapse or still have some blue pill views. We should gently challenge and persuade them that we speak the truth.

    But if they insist or try to insult, then kick their fucking asses right our of the forum, that is what I think.
    A mother cannot raise a boy to be a man, not because he needs a father figure; but because she favours team vagina over her own son.

    Tradcon women are the most manipulative of all kinds of women, because they infect you with false hope.
    Radfems are your best friend, because they hate you and verbalise it - that's honesty!

    The red pill rage is a process which takes many many years - so be kind and patient with yourself.

  13. #13
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    Because the truth is too much. It is simply too much to ask a man to swallow the red pill, whole.
    But after a point, those pills become an addiction !!! People who blast your face with red pills first, and then explain later, are way more fun and exciting ! When someone does that, you know you are talking to a person who is blunt, dead honest and will hold nothing back, its comforting, and a refreshing change from the usual interaction with sheeple.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  14. #14

    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    Then in the end he says that MGTOWs tend to focus on themselves. Building their life, body, career etc. All that makes them more desirable to women in the end. So he says that even if we went our own way, we are working to make ourselves more desirable to women, instinctively if not consciously. Now I literally wanted to throw up.
    He's sort of half-right, at least in my case. You see, I want to be the best guy they never had.

    I dated and fucked a lot of women when I was in my 20's. But I was never a Chad...I was more like a place-holder for Chad. I was the kind of guy they'd sleep with because they were bored, and I was just entertaining enough to let me get in their pants. I wasn't the guy they really wanted, and I knew that. But I was just attractive, energetic, and seductive enough that if I put myself out there, I was able to get laid pretty consistently. The truth is, I wanted more than that...but that was all they were willing to give me.

    Those women never appreciated me. My real strengths which made me attractive and successful now, such as my intelligence, my hard work ethic, my planning abilities and foresight; they could not have cared less about these things. When I told them I was a pre-med or pre-pharmacy student or talked about my future plans, I could almost hear their pussy drying up faster than the Sahara Desert. But when I used my cheesy lines and moves, if they were bored and there wasn't a more attractive guy in the vicinity, that usually did the trick. They'd use me for cheap entertainment and amusement, knowing full well they'd drop me the second a better guy came along.

    Well, now I am very successful, and suddenly these women are a lot more attracted to me. And the women I was chasing then, they are in their 30's now. They're not looking so hot. Most of them are well past the wall, meanwhile I'm still in great shape...but they can't see that the difference in our SMV has done a complete 180. They now have bastard kids, and dead-end minimum wage jobs that they hate. They have lots of debt, and no real assets or savings. They see a guy like me, and they think..."yeah, I've had my fun. I had sex with lots of attractive guys when I was young, but those guys are gone, and this guy is about right for me now. Now I will give this guy the privilege of paying for my mistakes and financing my lifestyle for awhile."

    I want to be the best guy they never had. And I want them to realize that I am firmly out of their reach. Because I'm exactly the type of guy they spent their entire privileged, easy lives taking for granted. I was just Billy Beta to them. I was the guy who would work hard in his 20's so he could afford to buy her a nice house in her 30's, take her on a few vacations, and send her a nice fat alimony and child support check every month when she finally got bored with me.

    But that will never happen, because I won't even look at those women. But every now and then, I see the way they look at me through my peripheral vision. I can hear it in the tone of their voice when they try to chat me up. I'm completely cold to them, and they can't figure out why. Something doesn't quite compute, because maybe she didn't know me in my 20's, but she probably knew some guy just like me in her 20's who worked very hard to gain her affection, and she rejected him.

    That guy is me...and that girl is every girl I ever dated. She just doesn't realize it, and she'll never figure it out. But that's who I am. I'm the best guy she will never have.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Azure Nomad's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    Exactly ! This is exactly the part which is very difficult to convey. Its like telling them to cross a magical bridge which they cannot see !



    Yeah, I have seen lots of people doing that, who are otherwise smart and have no evil intent. In their desperate attempt to understand us, they try to map their observations to their own experience, which is what everybody does when learning a new thing. But in this case, it seriously misleads them.
    Yes Jordan Peterson is a person that is used often as an example when it comes to high intellect but can't piece together what MGTOW really means for men going their own way.

    JP has been with his wife and remembers as a kid the traditional nuclear family model so it is a foreign concept for him where men reject this patriarchal "archtype" as he calls it. You see JP as a psychologist assumes that all human beings must follow archtypes as a guiding force throughout life. This is due to how humanity has passed down knowledge using archtypes for centuries through storytelling .

    But as we grow older we abandon such archtypes because what use do we have for such training wheels from our childhood? For me personally I do not follow any archtype or role model. I have slowly formed my own identity that is independent upon what is taught but rather dependent upon what wisdom I have cultivated.

    JP's advice is fundamental sound for young kids and young adults, but once you break free from rigid definitions and realize the world is more nuanced it is really an open ended sandbox world.

  16. #16
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthine View Post
    He's sort of half-right, at least in my case.
    ...
    Yes, but being half right can totally alter the meaning or intent of ideas like MGTOW. As far as I can see, after reading your post, and based on what I understood in his video, he got two things wrong (I may not be very accurate, this is a bit alien to me) :-

    1. He assumes that the biggest mistake of MGTOW people (like you), is to have too high expectations. He asks us to lower our expectations down from the blonde babe in porn to average real life jane. Your story doesnt suggest anything of this sort, it suggests that your mistake was you being blue pilled, believing in all the lies about women and their wants and needs. This deviation in understanding shifts the focus of MGTOW addressing a problem with how human society works, to how a male teen is being too horny and porn addicted.

    2. He then mistakes the current situation of MGTOW like you. He says you are still governed by your instincts to get the best woman and all that jazz. But in your case IMHO, you are very WELL AWARE of your instincts. You turned it into some kind of sport, and are entertained from this. You are no longer a passenger, but in driver's seat. That makes a world of difference.

    And one additional point, is that you are just one subtype of a larger MGTOW community. You cannot look at an apple and say all fruits are red. I find this the biggest mistake in his analysis, because the above two points, I can understand that you gotta be MGTOW to understand. But this thing, that you cannot pick a special case and generalize out of it, in anything, not just MGTOW, is supposed to be a common sense which I expected out of him.

    In other words, what I want to say is, him being partially (and only partially) right about a subtype of MGTOW, is merely a coincidence.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  17. #17
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Nomad View Post
    Yes Jordan Peterson is a person that is used often as an example when it comes to high intellect but can't piece together what MGTOW really means for men going their own way.

    JP has been with his wife and remembers as a kid the traditional nuclear family model so it is a foreign concept for him where men reject this patriarchal "archtype" as he calls it. You see JP as a psychologist assumes that all human beings must follow archtypes as a guiding force throughout life. This is due to how humanity has passed down knowledge using archtypes for centuries through storytelling .

    But as we grow older we abandon such archtypes because what use do we have for such training wheels from our childhood? For me personally I do not follow any archtype or role model. I have slowly formed my own identity that is independent upon what is taught but rather dependent upon what wisdom I have cultivated.

    JP's advice is fundamental sound for young kids and young adults, but once you break free from rigid definitions and realize the world is more nuanced it is really an open ended sandbox world.
    I tend to find this archetype thing very similar to a phenomenon I have seen in the world of programming and art. Dunno if you heard about this meme on how to draw an owl :



    There are similar cases with programming languages. You will find tutorials to write small trivial things for everything, and then you can see all these big softwares, but there is no intermediate.

    I say this is similar to the situation we have in this world, because, I think those fairytale archetypes are a simplification, which are like you say, training wheels. Living actual life and taking smart decisions as an adult is an advanced stage. The intermediate stage is supposed to be hard truths and facts, which a growing person can then utilize to take smart decisions during adulthood. MGTOW fills that spot, it doesnt teach you HOW to live your life, it gives you a large number of facts. They cant be taught within few fairy tales, they are quite elaborate, but are absolutely needed BEFORE things go out of hand (marriage, divorce rape, etc).
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    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman

  18. #18

    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    Yes, but being half right can totally alter the meaning or intent of ideas like MGTOW. As far as I can see, after reading your post, and based on what I understood in his video, he got two things wrong (I may not be very accurate, this is a bit alien to me) :-

    1. He assumes that the biggest mistake of MGTOW people (like you), is to have too high expectations. He asks us to lower our expectations down from the blonde babe in porn to average real life jane. Your story doesnt suggest anything of this sort, it suggests that your mistake was you being blue pilled, believing in all the lies about women and their wants and needs. This deviation in understanding shifts the focus of MGTOW addressing a problem with how human society works, to how a male teen is being too horny and porn addicted.

    2. He then mistakes the current situation of MGTOW like you. He says you are still governed by your instincts to get the best woman and all that jazz. But in your case IMHO, you are very WELL AWARE of your instincts. You turned it into some kind of sport, and are entertained from this. You are no longer a passenger, but in driver's seat. That makes a world of difference.

    And one additional point, is that you are just one subtype of a larger MGTOW community. You cannot look at an apple and say all fruits are red. I find this the biggest mistake in his analysis, because the above two points, I can understand that you gotta be MGTOW to understand. But this thing, that you cannot pick a special case and generalize out of it, in anything, not just MGTOW, is supposed to be a common sense which I expected out of him.

    In other words, what I want to say is, him being partially (and only partially) right about a subtype of MGTOW, is merely a coincidence.
    Yep, you're exactly right, on all counts. I think I'm probably kind of a weird case, too. Most MGTOW don't really give a fuck about being attractive to women...I just happen to enjoy snubbing them and rejecting them from time to time.

    Guys who are in good shape, have lots of money, enjoy developing hobbies and skills at things, or whatever...these things might make them more attractive to women, but that isn't necessarily why they're doing it. If you're MGTOW, you do it because you want to have the best life possible, and having those things makes your life better. It really is that simple.

    But guys like him can't see that, because to him there is no point in doing anything unless it leads to sex or female validation. They are willing to take all the value they bring to the table, and give it all away for something I see as worthless. To me it's a bit like working hard for years and years, saving and investing money...then walking into a casino and gambling it all away. How many times do you have to do that before you learn it's a stupid game that's rigged against you, and there's much better games to play? This guy will probably never learn.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Insidious_Sid's Avatar
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    Re: Another one confused MGTOW with something else

    @Xanthine:

    I too had some pretty good Beta Game. I fed very well of the scraps that flew off Chad's table. Half the time I would bed women higher in SMV than myself - being fit and well dressed helped. Not "conventionally handsome", but enough facial symmetry to get by. But it was intelligence, the gift of the gab and some pretty basic seduction techniques - this certainly made the difference.

    If I didn't go the divorce -> MGTOW route, I'd probably have ended up a PUA. But, I stared female nature directly in the face.

    It was a venomous viper staring back at me. Forked tongue and all.

    Not a creature you want in your bed, for sure.
    - Feminism is Cancer.
    - Where have all the good men gone? Away. Far far away... from you.
    - NAWALT? Maybe, but EWALT means Russian Roulette is a much safer bet...


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