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  1. #61
    Senior Member Latinus's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Keep calm, guys. Transhumanism is still just the first of the weird mundane philosophies of my reasearch among Mgtows. Then come the "primitivists", then the "extinctionists", then the "hedonists"...

    And then you can go mad when I really start to talk about the new religious theories that I found out there. :^D

  2. #62
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Latinus View Post
    Keep calm, guys. Transhumanism is still just the first of the weird mundane philosophies of my reasearch among Mgtows. Then come the "primitivists", then the "extinctionists", then the "hedonists"...

    And then you can go mad when I really start to talk about the new religious theories that I found out there. :^D
    Oh we are very calm, trust me. Its our usual banter !

    On serious note though, based on my experience of reading things in mgtow ecosystem, the sad thing (from my pov) is that the "pro-tech" arguments are usually very weak. They are often made from the feeling viewpoint as opposed to utility/efficiency viewpoint, and then get subsequently slaughtered by a hailstorm of feelings and emotions.

    I am trying my best, to stay away from bringing feelings, in any of my arguments. And this requires some training and some practice, which ironically I learnt from a different (more red pilled !!) ecosystem than mgtow.
    Greedy algorithms always get stuck in a local extrema...

    If you cannot determine global extrema... or if the graph (or space) is infinite, genetic algorithms give better results.

    The function space or hypothesis space is not only infinite, but in most cases, have infinite dimensions.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Latinus's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    Oh we are very calm, trust me. Its our usual banter !

    On serious note though, based on my experience of reading things in mgtow ecosystem, the sad thing (from my pov) is that the "pro-tech" arguments are usually very weak. They are often made from the feeling viewpoint as opposed to utility/efficiency viewpoint, and then get subsequently slaughtered by a hailstorm of feelings and emotions.

    I am trying my best, to stay away from bringing feelings, in any of my arguments. And this requires some training and some practice, which ironically I learnt from a different (more red pilled !!) ecosystem than mgtow.
    Really I think that even the transhumanist arguments are weak in some points. You can find more informations in this wikipedia link:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism

    Because it seems that create technological humans is not exactly a final goal. That is just a way (a tool to reach a goal). And an artificial "superhuman" could reach such goal easily since they would be designed to do it.

    So, looks like the point is that firstly humans should define the goals to be reached, and then create artificial humans to do the job. Dont talking about the ethics here, but at least makes more sense.

    But I think that my mistake here maybe was starting to post about the mundane ideas. It will really turning into religious discussions, since the spiritual, moral and final goals are more basic topics related to religions.

    So I think that my next thread will be about the religious ideas that I found among Mgtows. At least about the most common ideas I found and that makes more sense. Then, I can post more about transhumanism and other mundane philosophies and we can analyse them according to the different "religious views".

  4. #64
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Latinus View Post
    So, looks like the point is that firstly humans should define the goals to be reached, and then create artificial humans to do the job. Dont talking about the ethics here, but at least makes more sense.
    Well this sounds more reasonable but this just doesnt work. First the man learns to build something and only then they are utilized towards some goals. I have mentioned the process in my posts in this very thread :

    - The scientists first discover theories, they may have very vague ideas about goals or none at all, and may not even care.
    - The engineers then build something with those theories, with more realistic ideas of goals
    - The USER is the one who is the final entity which decides the goal.

    Of course, in very early days of any technologies, all three can be same group, in which case they may have SOME goals in their mind, but that doesnt mean that once they develop the machines, other groups wont adopt and find some other uses for them, not foreseen by original inventors.

    And in some rare cases, it is found that some goals cannot be reached. Eg: Halting Problem.

    My main argument in favor of pro-tech is... dont bog down a knowledge-seeker (scientist) with relentless questions of goals, let him do his thing. Then let the engineers figure out what they can build with it. And THEN ask the USERS about the goal.
    Greedy algorithms always get stuck in a local extrema...

    If you cannot determine global extrema... or if the graph (or space) is infinite, genetic algorithms give better results.

    The function space or hypothesis space is not only infinite, but in most cases, have infinite dimensions.

  5. #65
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    The god of my "religion" demands sacrifices as the cost of wisdom and knowledge. When people tried to do surgery without proper hygiene, the patients got infected and died, when they tried to transfuse blood from one person to another without knowing about blood groups, people died. When they tried to build bigger and stronger cannons, they exploded at the experimentation sites, fragging anyone nearby and severely wounding even those who were farther away. When they tried playing around with radioactive elements, they started dying of cancer..... and so on and so forth...


    Exactly. Like doctors would drill holes in a person's head to cure their headache. To let the demons escape. I am the guy saying hang on... not sure about this. We are fucking with something that is going to bite us in the ass. This is wrong. I can't prove it, I don't why I know.. but it's wrong. There is a natural cure for this headache. I guess only time can tell who is right.

    I am not against all scientific discovery. Just my personal philosophy is recognise and do not tamper with the sacred. I believe the world would be better if more were like this, than if we supported 'science' in all its endeavours.

    As an aside it makes me laugh now when people say they believe in or follow the science. Who controls the science? The authorities. Everything you have been taught in controlled by THEM. So really when people say they believe in the science, they are saying the trust the authorities. No doubt people would baulk at this, but I would welcome them to demonstrate how what I have said is incorrect. If they believe in 'the science' then they are admitting they trust the authorities to A) be correct and B) not to be lying to them.

    Keep calm, guys. Transhumanism is still just the first of the weird mundane philosophies of my reasearch among Mgtows. Then come the "primitivists", then the "extinctionists", then the "hedonists"...

    And then you can go mad when I really start to talk about the new religious theories that I found out there. :^D
    Heated debate while maintaining respect. It's what the world needs.

    I'm definitely interested in your new religious theories.....
    Last edited by happybachelor; May 5, 2021 at 7:38 AM.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    As an aside it makes me laugh now when people say they believe in or follow the science. Who controls the science? The authorities. Everything you have been taught in controlled by THEM. So really when people say they believe in the science, they are saying the trust the authorities.
    Well, in case of large scale propaganda, its quite easy to catch, eg: covid. I will just apply the basic theory to all the facts I can get my hands on.

    But on small scale, say at interpersonal level, there is a small trick that can get around the need to believe anybody. And the trick can be highlighted by an example, lets say Joe says Jane is evil. Now if someone asks me about Jane, instead of saying :

    "Jane is evil."

    I'll say

    "If Joe is right, then Jane is evil."

    Thats it, I dont have to believe anyone.
    Greedy algorithms always get stuck in a local extrema...

    If you cannot determine global extrema... or if the graph (or space) is infinite, genetic algorithms give better results.

    The function space or hypothesis space is not only infinite, but in most cases, have infinite dimensions.

  7. #67
    Senior Member stanmsl's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    As an aside it makes me laugh now when people say they believe in or follow the science. Who controls the science? The authorities. Everything you have been taught in controlled by THEM. So really when people say they believe in the science, they are saying the trust the authorities. No doubt people would baulk at this, but I would welcome them to demonstrate how what I have said is incorrect. If they believe in 'the science' then they are admitting they trust the authorities to A) be correct and B) not to be lying to them.
    Science is a method that has massively improved our quality of life. Impact of science - RationalWiki. Most science that has been proven wrong has been done so by other scientists.

    Back to the original post, religion will always oppose any "life issues" like artificial wombs, messing around with genetics etc. While the church has little power in the UK today it still seems to sit in peoples sub-conscious.

    Obviously with a country like China, this is taken out of the equation and there's probably all sorts of experiments going on that we won't know about for a while. I believe we should go ahead with this research if other countries are going ahead anyway because we will fall technologically behind.

    On The Artificial Womb - YouTube
    Men are becoming MGTOW by the millions, most without ever having heard the term. They are simply doing what all living organisms finding themselves in a toxic environment do. They adapt to it or remove themselves from it. Females are not liking either the adaptations or the removal.

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  8. #68
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    Science is a method that has massively improved our quality of life. Impact of science - RationalWiki. Most science that has been proven wrong has been done so by other scientists.
    But there are still somethings that slip by. One good example is this theory that "there are no observable differences between brains of men and women", from which they derive that they are mentally equal. There are many debates on this in scientific circles, and there are scientists on both sides of the fence, so people just pick whichever side feels more comfortable to them.

    And in this scenario, it is required to do one more testing, the Occam's Razor, which also has a nice page on Rational Wiki.

    And even with that, the process is not immediate. Faults in theories, which could've been found relatively easily by application of occam's razor, or maybe simply some calculation error in case of algorithms, sometimes take some time to get corrected and re-published. There is a lot of red-tape involved in it. I have a friend who did research on algorithms and it was occasionally an issue.

    So if the "scientist" comes at me and asks me something ridiculous, I am not going to close my eyes and follow him. I will test what he is saying by the same methods of science. No exceptions.
    Greedy algorithms always get stuck in a local extrema...

    If you cannot determine global extrema... or if the graph (or space) is infinite, genetic algorithms give better results.

    The function space or hypothesis space is not only infinite, but in most cases, have infinite dimensions.

  9. #69
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Obviously with a country like China, this is taken out of the equation and there's probably all sorts of experiments going on that we won't know about for a while. I believe we should go ahead with this research if other countries are going ahead anyway because we will fall technologically behind.
    I do not expect you to comprehend this, but for the benefit of others too, 'falling technologically behind' is not always a bad thing.

    But there are still somethings that slip by. One good example is this theory that "there are no observable differences between brains of men and women", from which they derive that they are mentally equal. There are many debates on this in scientific circles, and there are scientists on both sides of the fence, so people just pick whichever side feels more comfortable to them.


    If science believes in evolution then there's no way they could claim men and women are mentally equal. That is just propaganda to further divide men and women.
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  10. #70
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    If science believes in evolution then there's no way they could claim men and women are mentally equal. That is just propaganda to further divide men and women.
    In simplified terms yeah, though if someone challenges me for a debate, then I will write it in more accurate terms, with application of occam's razor.

    Also one other major fault people do when interpreting anything, they consider whole scientific community as one institution. That is not the case, its a large number of people distributed across the planet. And because of that there are differences, and many of them are not settled. Of course, you are already very apprehensive of the whole institution so not much reason for me to expand on it in this post, so here we are in agreement. But I will do it, if opposed.
    Greedy algorithms always get stuck in a local extrema...

    If you cannot determine global extrema... or if the graph (or space) is infinite, genetic algorithms give better results.

    The function space or hypothesis space is not only infinite, but in most cases, have infinite dimensions.

  11. #71
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Yeah, don't get me wrong, I am all for real science. I would like to see real scientific exploration into the consciousness, ether, telepathy, etc. The unseen. I feel that is where the significant breakthroughs will be made, like my man Tesla said.
    I expect this has been going on for a while but kept under wraps. The last thing the PTB want is the average man realising there is more to life than the periodic table.

    May I recommend a book that may be of interest to you? It's called God's Secret Formula, Deciphering the Riddle of the Universe and the Prime Number Code by Peter Plichta.

    Hopefully the title doesn't put you off, I think its contents, especially the science and maths, will be of great interest to you.
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  12. #72
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    Yeah, don't get me wrong, I am all for real science. I would like to see real scientific exploration into the consciousness, ether, telepathy, etc. The unseen. I feel that is where the significant breakthroughs will be made, like my man Tesla said.
    I expect this has been going on for a while but kept under wraps. The last thing the PTB want is the average man realising there is more to life than the periodic table.

    May I recommend a book that may be of interest to you? It's called God's Secret Formula, Deciphering the Riddle of the Universe and the Prime Number Code by Peter Plichta.

    Hopefully the title doesn't put you off, I think its contents, especially the science and maths, will be of great interest to you.
    There has been a lot done in consciousness, based on what I have heard. The major problem is the same as we have with AI. We dont have good enough hardware to run all that. Its a very technical subject, and is not something I have studied extensively so I cannot say anything more on this.. yet, this may change in future.

    Regarding that book, I think I have read bits of this. I just read the description and it talks about probabilities related to basic laws of universe. I actually remember reading a VERY GOOD text on this. It was written, in quite detail, with lots of calculations, that the probability of getting the universe right by "chance" is billionth of a billionth of a billionth ... something like that lol.

    But I forgot where I read that and I was searching for this for years, so really appreciate that you found it for me, thanks !!!
    Greedy algorithms always get stuck in a local extrema...

    If you cannot determine global extrema... or if the graph (or space) is infinite, genetic algorithms give better results.

    The function space or hypothesis space is not only infinite, but in most cases, have infinite dimensions.

  13. #73
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    No probs. Yes it's very interesting. In very simple terms, nothing so complicated and perfect as the universe could happen by chance. Like DNA for our bodies, there is a code to the universe. A blueprint.

    It took us millions of years to learn how to fly. And the universe, something infinitely more advanced than an aeroplane, can just occur by accident? Lol.

    Neil de GrASS Tyson is a liar. Brian COCKS is a liar. High Priests of the church of BBC sanctioned scientism, very on board with Convid!
    Alpha male with a warrior spirit.
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  14. #74
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    Neil de GrASS Tyson is a liar. Brian COCKS is a liar.
    Dont know who these guys are, I just remember hearing there names hazily. I am actually a very specialist oriented person. I rarely read anything outside the fields I chose as my profession(s). The reading I do, or I should call it studying, is to keep pace with latest development and also to improve my skill set.

    The ONLY thing I read, in detail, outside my profession is... that thing I pm'd you. Its a survival necessity for a person like me in this clown world. Faith is one excellent path to survive, but I am too curious about things and too inconsiderate about emotions to find any joy in there. I am pretty sure I have some kind of autism, but I cba researching on it, it is what it is and I have adapted for that. But then it leaves me vulnerable to "science guys" and the other bad people we talk about, so I need some other method.

    Other than that there is a whole lots of people at all points in spectrum from science to faith, writing about all the things, from spirituality to technology. I dont really find the idea of wading through all that very attractive, and thus very unwilling to spend any time on that.
    Greedy algorithms always get stuck in a local extrema...

    If you cannot determine global extrema... or if the graph (or space) is infinite, genetic algorithms give better results.

    The function space or hypothesis space is not only infinite, but in most cases, have infinite dimensions.

  15. #75
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    Dont know who these guys are, I just remember hearing there names hazily. I am actually a very specialist oriented person. I rarely read anything outside the fields I chose as my profession(s). The reading I do, or I should call it studying, is to keep pace with latest development and also to improve my skill set.

    The ONLY thing I read, in detail, outside my profession is... that thing I pm'd you. Its a survival necessity for a person like me in this clown world. Faith is one excellent path to survive, but I am too curious about things and too inconsiderate about emotions to find any joy in there. I am pretty sure I have some kind of autism, but I cba researching on it, it is what it is and I have adapted for that. But then it leaves me vulnerable to "science guys" and the other bad people we talk about, so I need some other method.

    Other than that there is a whole lots of people at all points in spectrum from science to faith, writing about all the things, from spirituality to technology. I dont really find the idea of wading through all that very attractive, and thus very unwilling to spend any time on that.
    Can you elaborate on the bit I highlighted? Do you mean in the way that knowledge is power?
    Alpha male with a warrior spirit.
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  16. #76
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    Can you elaborate on the bit I highlighted? Do you mean in the way that knowledge is power?
    I PM'd you the reply.
    Greedy algorithms always get stuck in a local extrema...

    If you cannot determine global extrema... or if the graph (or space) is infinite, genetic algorithms give better results.

    The function space or hypothesis space is not only infinite, but in most cases, have infinite dimensions.

  17. #77
    Senior Member stanmsl's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    But there are still somethings that slip by. One good example is this theory that "there are no observable differences between brains of men and women", from which they derive that they are mentally equal. There are many debates on this in scientific circles, and there are scientists on both sides of the fence, so people just pick whichever side feels more comfortable to them.
    Good point, the problem is that the human mind is hard wired to survive and reproduce not discover the cold hard facts about the real world. It doesn't matter if your tribe believes the moon is made of green cheese as long as they are reproductively successful. As a result people are generally terrible at assessing real world issues today as I have pointed out multiple times in the past.
    Burger King's "impossible" Burger (goingyourownway.com)

    Strictly following the scientific method is something you have to train your mind to do, not something you do by default. It's very easy to slip out of this mindset, a scientist could be 100% competent in the workplace then fall for an obvious internet scam while sitting at home.
    Men are becoming MGTOW by the millions, most without ever having heard the term. They are simply doing what all living organisms finding themselves in a toxic environment do. They adapt to it or remove themselves from it. Females are not liking either the adaptations or the removal.

    ,TWITTER FEED BLOG

  18. #78
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    Good point, the problem is that the human mind is hard wired to survive and reproduce not discover the cold hard facts about the real world. It doesn't matter if your tribe believes the moon is made of green cheese as long as they are reproductively successful. As a result people are generally terrible at assessing real world issues today as I have pointed out multiple times in the past.
    Burger King's "impossible" Burger (goingyourownway.com)

    Strictly following the scientific method is something you have to train your mind to do, not something you do by default. It's very easy to slip out of this mindset, a scientist could be 100% competent in the workplace then fall for an obvious internet scam while sitting at home.
    True. Though article linked in your post is a bit funny from my pov. I HATE driving, I'd rather walk. Its good exercise plus I work from home anyways. I dont take sugars and alcohol. I have like one friend who I meet face to face and two more on discord.. thats it. The short term vs long term I cannot decide because I have no short term problems.. at the time of writing this, so only worried about long term.

    On serious note, I have a personal strategy to somewhat mitigate that problem, kindda a rule of thumb. And that is, unless its an emergency, DONT react quickly, pause and think. If I see a nice item while browsing amazon and I want to buy, I'd give myself some time to think what bad things can happen. If someone from friends or family did something outrageous that should make me angry, I'll let them speak first when confronting. 99% of the time, I find that they did it for a genuine purpose and I have no reason to be angry. And same goes for everything.

    I am not saying I can do that 100% (I cannot really measure), but whenever I do that, it gives me some time to think and apply any rational logic.

    EDIT: Its also useful in my profession (programming). It is useful to write code slowly while thinking of the problem. The bugs avoided that way, save a lot of time later down the road.
    Greedy algorithms always get stuck in a local extrema...

    If you cannot determine global extrema... or if the graph (or space) is infinite, genetic algorithms give better results.

    The function space or hypothesis space is not only infinite, but in most cases, have infinite dimensions.

  19. #79
    Senior Member WheelBarrow's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    It’s when I get beyond that, to the Letters of the Apostles and Disciples that I switch off. The sheer repetitiveness of the phrase “God is great” smacks of indoctrination to me – in the vein of the great lie repeated often enough becomes the truth. That’s not to say it is a lie; just that it feels like manipulation.
    It appears repetitive to us as those letters were collected by the early church and assembled into the epistles we know today. When they were written, mostly by Paul but also Peter and John and others, each was written to a different congregation, some received a second letter, etc., because of the waning of their faith or the intrusion of false teaching instead of the gospel Paul, et. al., preached. Yes, it is repetitive because the original point/gospel is being reinforced.

    That is really no different than what we do in these forums where we keep redirecting each other toward truths.

    I hope you can put your judgment of the epistles aside and read through them again. Paul does a brilliant job of explaining the Christian faith throughout his letters. Remember, Paul was Saul, a devout jew who took great offense to the offshoot of Christianity and was present at the martyrdom of Stephen and who went on to persecute the fledgling church. He was on his way to Damascus to put down another fledgling church when Christ confronted him about his persecution of him (Christ), blinding Saul, and telling him that from henceforth he would now be known as Paul and would preach and suffer for Christ. Paul was taken into Damascus and knowing there were a couple of apostles nearby had them summoned to minister to him. Despite their hesitation they did so and Paul's blindness was removed and he continued to learn and grow in faith and became the great apostle we know today.

    Paul's perspective is unique. He was, as mentioned, a devout jew, steeped in the laws and traditions of Judaism. He was also a Roman citizen and so knew well the beliefs and customs of the empire. As he noted, he was one untimely born, the chief of sinners, the least of the apostles and not worthy to be counted an apostle because of his past, worked hard in his remaining years to establish and support congregations of the early church, and these letters are just a tiny glimpse into his work. They are a wonderful exposition of the Christian faith and I hope you'll take a fresh approach to reading them again.

    Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread!
    “Associate yourself with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company.” – George Washington

  20. #80
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by WheelBarrow View Post
    Yes, it is repetitive because the original point/gospel is being reinforced.

    That is really no different than what we do in these forums where we keep redirecting each other toward truths.
    I havent read any religious texts so I dont know how things are done there, but whatever vague idea I have from other people talking about it, I do get an impression that there is indeed one great difference between repetition of anything in a religious text vs repetition of things on this forum.

    In religious texts, there is one overall god (or gods in polytheistic religions), which have some teachings/messages for the followers of that religion. And repeating something again and again towards that goal, is one thing.

    Now on this forum, there is no overarching group who is by default considered holding the most power over truth. Here we often argue and debate, sometimes very radically opposing ideas, to find the truth. These debates can be very similar to trial-by-combat, where ideas themselves are analogous to combatants. Sometimes there is a clear winner, sometimes there are pyrrhic victories, sometimes its a draw.

    Of course not all members like to participate in such debates, and even those who do, dont do that all the time, but it does tend to happen in case of sensitive and nuanced topics. I dont know how often this happens in religious texts, but I personally find debates more informative than a long essay where there is no demonstration of survival against criticism.
    Greedy algorithms always get stuck in a local extrema...

    If you cannot determine global extrema... or if the graph (or space) is infinite, genetic algorithms give better results.

    The function space or hypothesis space is not only infinite, but in most cases, have infinite dimensions.


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