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  1. #41
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Your argument of pushing things underground may hold some truth, but at the same time it would suggest all laws are meaningless because they just push the criminals in to hiding – it doesn’t stop them, so why bother trying?
    This is an awesome question, which I will try my best to answer.

    They key is, "harm", which results eventually into some tangible economic and/or physical damage.

    If there is no harm, then you treating a bunch of people as criminals is costlier than not doing anything about it. And you are paying that cost (of catching those criminals). A cost for no harm done, essentially you are harming yourself. And those "criminals" will see you as a tyrant, and will also retaliate. In the end, it will be destructive for you.

    If there IS an actual harm, then NOT doing anything about it is more costly. And those criminals will get emboldened and will keep increasing the burden on you. If you keep staying silent and passive, THAT will be destructive for you.

    This is what I meant by "forced to retaliate" vs being "unreasonably hostile". There is also a saying "Dont fix when it aint broke". Which says the thing I just said in a more terse style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    If we ask these questions, and insist they be answered at least to some degree we may be able to stymie the flow until we understand it better.

    Science does not care about morality, but morality needs to be applied to science otherwise we are all just cogs in a machine, a machine bent on destroying us all.
    You will only slow down the research, but not stop it completely, and like I explained above, at a high cost to yourself for nothing.

    Science CANNOT care about morality. The theories of science are needed by engineering to build things, machines. Machines dont work with morality, and certainly not any random individual's morality. The user of that machine however, is the person on which your question is valid.

    Again, you are asking the right question at wrong time and to the wrong person (people).
    Unless stated otherwise, I am NOT presenting my preferences.

    Preferences can be views, thoughts, opinions, philosophies, morals, values, ideology, imaginations, fantasies, fictions, god, soul, spirit...

    I am using scientific method, its an algorithmic computation, designed to give highest efficiency and chance to win in a conflict, at a very high cost of mental discomfort of not adhering to preferences and spending time and energy on the computation.

  2. #42
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    Science CANNOT care about morality. The theories of science are needed by engineering to build things, machines. Machines dont work with morality, and certainly not any random individual's morality. The user of that machine however, is the person on which your question is valid.

    Again, you are asking the right question at wrong time and to the wrong person (people).
    So, you are saying these new human or human-like beings should be treated as mere machines to be used and disposed of as we see fit?

    This scares me even more than genetic manipulation.

    Remember the original thread – about artificial wombs.

  3. #43
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    So, you are saying these new human or human-like beings should be treated as mere machines to be used and disposed of as we see fit?

    This scares me even more than genetic manipulation.

    Remember the original thread – about artificial wombs.
    The answer is... yes, in a way. In more precise terms, its not your concern. You being any individual who is not involved in research. Of course, as long as they dont start picking up actual people from the streets, especially the streets of your group/people/society.

    And on you being scared, exactly the reason why a feeling (being scared) should not be used as an entry in a ledger of costs and transactions. Because when we do that, we start harming ourselves unknowingly.
    Unless stated otherwise, I am NOT presenting my preferences.

    Preferences can be views, thoughts, opinions, philosophies, morals, values, ideology, imaginations, fantasies, fictions, god, soul, spirit...

    I am using scientific method, its an algorithmic computation, designed to give highest efficiency and chance to win in a conflict, at a very high cost of mental discomfort of not adhering to preferences and spending time and energy on the computation.

  4. #44
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    The answer is... yes, in a way. In more precise terms, its not your concern. You being any individual who is not involved in research. Of course, as long as they dont start picking up actual people from the streets, especially the streets of your group/people/society.

    And on you being scared, exactly the reason why a feeling (being scared) should not be used as an entry in a ledger of costs and transactions. Because when we do that, we start harming ourselves unknowingly.
    Sometimes you scare me rkspsm.

  5. #45
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Sometimes you scare me rkspsm.
    LOL !! Trust me, I have to go through what I am writing several times to avoid my name appearing in banned members section, without any warning whatsoever ...

    Though rest assured I am not the enemy you are seeking, should you decide that those researchers are your enemy, and you decide to do something about them !! I am simply a computer guy !
    Unless stated otherwise, I am NOT presenting my preferences.

    Preferences can be views, thoughts, opinions, philosophies, morals, values, ideology, imaginations, fantasies, fictions, god, soul, spirit...

    I am using scientific method, its an algorithmic computation, designed to give highest efficiency and chance to win in a conflict, at a very high cost of mental discomfort of not adhering to preferences and spending time and energy on the computation.

  6. #46
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    LOL !! Trust me, I have to go through what I am writing several times to avoid my name appearing in banned members section, without any warning whatsoever ...

    Though rest assured I am not the enemy you are seeking, should you decide that those researchers are your enemy, and you decide to do something about them !! I am simply a computer guy !
    I'm not seeking any enemies, not even the researchers, and I won't be doing anything whatever way it turns out.

    I'm just exploring different viewpoints, and wow do you have some different viewpoints!!!

    It's been I while since you and I got into a debate. I have to say I enjoyed it.

  7. #47
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Feelings get a bad rep in the manosphere, because wimmin so often cite their feelings as the basis for their choices. But a terrible mistake, I believe, is to shut the door to all feeling because of that.

    I believe Stardusk did / does that. In his quest to reject wimmin out of his own hurt and disappointment, and be uber rational, he ignores his feelings. He said it himself, he is a withered husk. But the point is he made that choice, he wasn't always like that. It was to protect his own ego.

    I think this is a grave mistake. Feelings can encompass a lot of different but intertwined things: emotion, thought, intuition, to name a few. These can be very important things in being human.

    For a start your feelings are often nearer the end point in a chain of events starting with thought. For example, I intuit and think that artificially creating humans is a bad idea - an opinion which rests on a number of arguments. The result is I *feel* uncomfortable and a bit sickened when I see people getting excited about it.

    But my feeling isn't the argument itself. If proper argument and a resulting agreement is possible, we would have to exchange pros and cons and agree one side is better overall.

    My major argument is we shouldn't play God, or nature, because we are messing with things that are sacred and for which God, or nature will punish us severely.

    This also comes from the there are no solutions, only trade-offs idea.

    Sacred could well be a meaningless word to a self-professed scientist. He just sees everything as fair game, whereas I make a distinction between manipulating the environment (let's say mining for metal) and manipulating live beings at a cellular level.

    I would say my secondary argument is that progress without limitations is fairly destined to end in horror.

    One could even look around and say that is what has kind of already happened. This is because there were not enough people like me putting their hand up saying "hang on, I'm not sure this is a good idea..."

    Ultimately language is limited and two highly intelligent people can remain completely opposed forever. Due to differing basic standpoints and the inability to make the other see what they see.

    We can fool ourselves that the best idea will win, but I think this is a flawed argument. The more powerful side will win. So yes we will probably continue our descent into hell because of who is running the show.

    As an anecdote and analogy to my final point.. I once mentioned who I think is responsible for most of the world's ills to a former girlfriend. Her reply was "well okay but even if you're right, isn't it their right as the strongest, which is to say the best group? Isn't that survival of the fittest?"

    My response was "So do you equally respect the playground bully because he is the strongest? No you do not, or should not. We know him ruling others by fear and terrorising them is not right, we know it would not be right to let him prosper. We do not take a purely utilitarian approach to things (perceived strength vs weakness), we also rely on our humanity to do what is what is right".

    My personal opinion is that because things like humanity, feeling, consciousness and intuition is not properly understood by the 'scientific community' (or at least they don't let on they do understand it), they file it under subjective feelz and stick to their 'objective rational science'. And of course then the inhuman approach will win.
    Last edited by happybachelor; May 4, 2021 at 3:35 PM.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    Feelings get a bad rep in the manosphere, because wimmin so often cite their feelings as the basis for their choices. But a terrible mistake, I believe, is to shut the door to all feeling because of that.
    I wholeheartedly agree with this.

    When people react totally out of their feelings on a matter, seemingly more prevalent amongst wymminz, we describe them as irrational. I believe it to be just as irrational to depend on logic and ignore our feelings.

    Our feelings serve many purposes, not least of which they serve to warn of impending danger before our rational minds have a chance to reason things out.

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    My major argument is we shouldn't play God, or nature, because we are messing with things that are sacred and for which God, or nature will punish us severely.
    I also agree with this stance, but if I may play devil’s advocate for a moment purely as a mind exercise:

    If we are all part of God’s/nature's plan, does it not then follow that everything we do is also part of that plan?
    Last edited by Jackoff; May 4, 2021 at 6:34 PM.

  9. #49
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    I also agree with this stance, but if I may play devil’s advocate for a moment purely as a mind exercise:

    If we are all part of God’s/natures plan, does it not then follow that everything we do is also part of that plan?

    I disagree with people who say everything is the will of God. If a person believes that, they never have to take responsibility for anything.

    I believe God gave us free will so that we live or perish by our own (collective) sword.

    The story of Adam and Eve is relevant here. If God was great enough to create us, he would have known we could fall to temptation. My personal belief is that he wanted to see which way it went. Think about it, if you create something so amazing and vast as the Earth/universe, it would be completely dull for you to map everything out in advance. You would create it and be excited to see how things panned out. In this way I consider us a kind of project of God. The creator of the project has ultimate control of it, but enjoys seeing how things unfold without overly interfering.

    An interesting aside here is I believe fate, free will and karma are not contradictory. I believe our fate is the result of our choices (free will) and subsequent karma. Many people see fate as everything decided in advance, I do not.

    God could destroy the world at any time, but that time may not come, or if it does very unlikely in our lifetimes. I think this is partly why so many people reject God, they want answers and solutions in their own lifetime and if it's outside of that, they aren't interested. But a God so great to create the universe would have a timeless perspective, one we cannot comprehend.

    If one believes the God created us, then it is my opinion that logic dictates there must be some purpose in mind. Otherwise, why create it.

    The church of scientism wants us to believe we came from dust and everything is random with the most impossible coincidences happening. Of course, when one believes that, it's hard to find any meaning in life, or purpose. You're alive, then you're dead, that's it.

    My belief is that the ultimate goal is for each person to find his purpose in life. And in doing so would recognise the divine, and work to contribute good to the world in his own way whether big or small. I should point out here that by purpose I don't necessarily mean a 'job' or 'mission'. It can simply be connecting to the universal consciousness, enlightenment, things of that nature.

    People who believe everything is God's will are often hypocritical. If that were the case they should never worry about anything, yet they do. As mentioned above, they also fail to take responsibility where it is due - "I don't need to oppose evil because it's all God's plan, He will intervene".

    I believe God wants us to oppose evil, as Jesus did. In doing so we would continue to enjoy the fruits of His labour, if we let evil win, then we may all be destroyed.

    Jesus stood for love and truth and was crucified for it. This message holds true today.
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  10. #50
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post

    I disagree with people who say everything is the will of God. If a person believes that, they never have to take responsibility for anything.

    I believe God gave us free will so that we live or perish by our own (collective) sword.

    The story of Adam and Eve is relevant here. If God was great enough to create us, he would have known we could fall to temptation. My personal belief is that he wanted to see which way it went. Think about it, if you create something so amazing and vast as the Earth/universe, it would be completely dull for you to map everything out in advance. You would create it and be excited to see how things panned out. In this way I consider us a kind of project of God. The creator of the project has ultimate control of it, but enjoys seeing how things unfold without overly interfering.

    An interesting aside here is I believe fate, free will and karma are not contradictory. I believe our fate is the result of our choices (free will) and subsequent karma. Many people see fate as everything decided in advance, I do not.

    God could destroy the world at any time, but that time may not come, or if it does very unlikely in our lifetimes. I think this is partly why so many people reject God, they want answers and solutions in their own lifetime and if it's outside of that, they aren't interested. But a God so great to create the universe would have a timeless perspective, one we cannot comprehend.

    If one believes the God created us, then it is my opinion that logic dictates there must be some purpose in mind. Otherwise, why create it.

    The church of scientism wants us to believe we came from dust and everything is random with the most impossible coincidences happening. Of course, when one believes that, it's hard to find any meaning in life, or purpose. You're alive, then you're dead, that's it.

    My belief is that the ultimate goal is for each person to find his purpose in life. And in doing so would recognise the divine, and work to contribute good to the world in his own way whether big or small. I should point out here that by purpose I don't necessarily mean a 'job' or 'mission'. It can simply be connecting to the universal consciousness, enlightenment, things of that nature.

    People who believe everything is God's will are often hypocritical. If that were the case they should never worry about anything, yet they do. As mentioned above, they also fail to take responsibility where it is due - "I don't need to oppose evil because it's all God's plan, He will intervene".

    I believe God wants us to oppose evil, as Jesus did. In doing so we would continue to enjoy the fruits of His labour, if we let evil win, then we may all be destroyed.

    Jesus stood for love and truth and was crucified for it. This message holds true today.
    And so we come back to religion.

    Would it surprise you to know that I, as an atheist, also consider myself Christian?

    Seems like a contradiction doesn’t it? But to me it makes perfect sense.

    I have tried to read the bible in different versions a number of times. Each time I get through the Old Testament without much problem. Then I get to the New Testament and I have little problem with the Gospels.

    It’s when I get beyond that, to the Letters of the Apostles and Disciples that I switch off. The sheer repetitiveness of the phrase “God is great” smacks of indoctrination to me – in the vein of the great lie repeated often enough becomes the truth. That’s not to say it is a lie; just that it feels like manipulation.

    Leaving aside the mystical side of things – the healings / the walking on water / the turning water in to wine etc, there are things about his story that I identify with completely.

    Christ wasn’t crucified for speaking truth nor for speaking love. He was crucified for publically speaking out against the current doctrine – he would go in to the temples and argue with the elders.

    To me, Jesus was one of the first documented red-pillers. This does not require me to believe in a deity.

  11. #51
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Christ wasn’t crucified for speaking truth nor for speaking love. He was crucified for publically speaking out against the current doctrine – he would go in to the temples and argue with the elders.

    Yes technically you are correct. But the two things aren't too dissimilar, he argued with them because they were going against the things he stood for, i.e. truth and love.

    That helped to make my point about Jesus not being some pacifist, as people tend to perceive him to be. He put himself in the line of fire. A lot of Christians today are completely false and recoil from any controversy or argument. They have taken meekness to mean never criticise, never oppose. They don't want to discuss anything. They aren't taking responsibility for doing good, for doing what Jesus would do.

    This is why a good person must necessarily be a thorn in the side of many people.

    An atheist and a Christian? That would surprise me, yes. I am not completely sure a person can be a Christian without believing in God.
    I would surmise that you don't believe in God, or are agnostic, but you align with Christianity because you recognise Jesus as the truth, and or that it's necessary to pick this side in our current spiritual war. Would this be correct?
    Last edited by happybachelor; May 4, 2021 at 8:16 PM.
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  12. #52
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    I would surmise that you don't believe in God, or are agnostic, but you align with Christianity because you recognise Jesus as the truth, and or that it's necessary to pick this side in our current spiritual war. Would this be correct?
    Agnostic / Atheist the line is blurred.

    I don't pick sides, I call it as I see it.

    Christian and Atheist? To me there is no problem, no need to choose.

    If you have read the bible, time and time again Christ repeats the phrase "I am the son of man".

    To some this means he is the son of mankind.

    To me this is him trying to educate his followers that he is merely a man, born of a normal man and woman relationship.

    People see what they want to see.

  13. #53
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    If you have read the bible, time and time again Christ repeats the phrase "I am the son of man".

    To some this means he is the son of mankind.

    To me this is him trying to educate his followers that he is merely a man, born of a normal man and woman relationship.

    People see what they want to see.


    Yes, but it's also clear in the Bible he's the son of God. Perhaps he was both. Perhaps he wanted us to see him as just a man too, that way it would be easier for us to be like Him. If everybody thought of him as God-like, there would immediately less affinity with Him.

    As I said, I'm not sure you can be a Christian but not believe in God. Atheism says there is no God. Christianity says you must believe in God. Hence my disbelief.
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    As I said, I'm not sure you can be a Christian but not believe in God. Atheism says there is no God. Christianity says you must believe in God. Hence my disbelief.
    I can be whatever I choose – this is the basic concept of MGTOW.

    Atheism says there is no God, true, but only up until the point they are convinced otherwise, most of us are open to persuasion but only of a factual nature.

    Christianity demanding belief in a deity (God) is only one interpretation. Can I not take the good from his story and decide he had good points without subservienting myself (I don’t think that’s a word, but hopefully you get my point).

    Why does it have to be a “take one, take all” view?

    Can I not take his basic teachings and consider him a leader of his time, something to be aspired to, without the mumbo-jumbo?

    The only time I’m aware of that he spoke to God directly was on the cross:

    “My God, my God why have you forsaken me?”

    Is this not something any man might say in times of despair? And indeed does it not imply that he himself was not God?

  15. #55
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    No, I think it's quite clear that God demands you believe in Him. If not, you can't call yourself a Christian.

    Well, you can do, in the same way I can call myself a monkey. But it might not mean much.

    It sounds to me like you are on the fence. You should really decide on what you believe.
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    No, I think it's quite clear that God demands you believe in Him. If not, you can't call yourself a Christian.

    Well, you can do, in the same way I can call myself a monkey. But it might not mean much.

    It sounds to me like you are on the fence. You should really decide on what you believe.
    I am very sure of what I believe.

    I can call myself whatever I like, just as others can call me whatever they like!!!

    God, if he exists, does not demand I believe in Him (free will), only people demand this.

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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    I am very sure of what I believe.

    I can call myself whatever I like, just as others can call me whatever they like!!!

    God, if he exists, does not demand I believe in Him, only people demand this.

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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    I live in that valley, far far away from the shinning city on the hill (where all our taxes go)...

  20. #60
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    And so we come back to religion.
    Haha ! We never deviated from religion. When we were debating, I was using many arguments which are taught to me by the "priests" of my "religion". Or rather, I began with quite a bit of compatibility with that kind of thinking, and rest I learnt by reading through their debates.

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    My major argument is we shouldn't play God, or nature, because we are messing with things that are sacred and for which God, or nature will punish us severely.
    Not arguing with you, we are at stalemate, but just some "revelations" about my "god"... if I can call these revelations :

    The god of my "religion" demands sacrifices as the cost of wisdom and knowledge. When people tried to do surgery without proper hygiene, the patients got infected and died, when they tried to transfuse blood from one person to another without knowing about blood groups, people died. When they tried to build bigger and stronger cannons, they exploded at the experimentation sites, fragging anyone nearby and severely wounding even those who were farther away. When they tried playing around with radioactive elements, they started dying of cancer..... and so on and so forth...

    We SEEK punishment from nature in order to understand it, its not a deterrent for us. Our god is not a "good guy".

    The only thing is, which is also learnt by similar punishments, that its a bad idea to transfer the cost to other people who are not participating in the "ritual". And transferring of the cost can also happen indirectly by polluting the environment.
    Unless stated otherwise, I am NOT presenting my preferences.

    Preferences can be views, thoughts, opinions, philosophies, morals, values, ideology, imaginations, fantasies, fictions, god, soul, spirit...

    I am using scientific method, its an algorithmic computation, designed to give highest efficiency and chance to win in a conflict, at a very high cost of mental discomfort of not adhering to preferences and spending time and energy on the computation.


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