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  1. #21
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    While I agree Murphy's Law may not be exact, but its not as far as it may appear at first glance.

    Think of it this way, humanity will undergo several events that has the potential to wipe it out. Which means some non-zero probability. The "inevitability" comes from the fact that as long as humanity survives, the events will keep happening. But whenever one such event succeeds, its over.

    In other words, regardless of how small number you pick, add it several times and it becomes as large as you want it to be. In probability terms, it needs to reach the value of 1 (certainty).

    Its not really "addition" in terms of probability math but you get the idea.
    I hate probability maths.

    Yeah I understand it, at least to some degree, it's useful for predicting long term events, but many don't get the basics.

    Take the most basic example - the tossing of a coin.

    Probability states that, over time, there will be an equal outcome - 50% heads and 50% tails, so long as you give enough scope for these probabilities to manifest, e.g. 100,000 flips of the coin.

    Where most people fall down is that on any given flip, no matter how many previous flips came up heads, the odds are still exactly 50/50 that the next toss will come up heads again.
    Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. - Mark Twain.

  2. #22
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Resdayn View Post
    Source website is "Times of Israel", I will not read any Jew propaganda.
    What are you talking about? I may delete this comment.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Resdayn View Post
    Source website is "Times of Israel", I will not read any Jew propaganda.
    So what propaganda will you read?

    @Unboxxed -

    Sorry if I've elevated this, but this annoys me.
    Last edited by Jackoff; May 1, 2021 at 4:01 AM.
    Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. - Mark Twain.

  4. #24
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    I hate probability maths.

    Yeah I understand it, at least to some degree, it's useful for predicting long term events, but many don't get the basics.

    Take the most basic example - the tossing of a coin.

    Probability states that, over time, there will be an equal outcome - 50% heads and 50% tails, so long as you give enough scope for these probabilities to manifest, e.g. 100,000 flips of the coin.

    Where most people fall down is that on any given flip, no matter how many previous flips came up heads, the odds are still exactly 50/50 that the next toss will come up heads again.
    Yeah ! You gonna love this :

    If you dont understand recursion yet, read this sentence again.

  5. #25
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    Yeah ! You gonna love this :
    Ow! My head hurts!
    Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. - Mark Twain.

  6. #26
    Senior Member stanmsl's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    This has the potential to be an ethical minefield (to put it mildly).

    My prediction is the first country to go ahead with this will be China, they probably have gone ahead with other types of experimentation that's banned in the likes of Europe.
    Men are becoming MGTOW by the millions, most without ever having heard the term. They are simply doing what all living organisms finding themselves in a toxic environment do. They adapt to it or remove themselves from it. Females are not liking either the adaptations or the removal.

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  7. #27
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by stanmsl View Post
    This has the potential to be an ethical minefield (to put it mildly).

    My prediction is the first country to go ahead with this will be China, they probably have gone ahead with other types of experimentation that's banned in the likes of Europe.
    Yeah. China doesnt really care much about usual human ethics when it comes to experimentation. In fact I have read from someone writing about history of chinese people (and I havent confirmed it, so take it for what it is), and what he wrote was that chinese had very little concern of human life compared to others even in past.
    If you dont understand recursion yet, read this sentence again.

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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Here’s my two cents worth with regards the Chinese and ethics:

    China is communist;
    Communism doesn’t like religion because it is seen as a competitor for power;
    Without religion, and an afterlife, life can seem pointless. Not my view, but I appreciate others may hold this view.
    If life is meaningless, then what does it matter what we do?

    I may be atheist, but that doesn’t make me blind to the benefits of having a faith.
    Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. - Mark Twain.

  9. #29
    Senior Member WheelBarrow's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    There have been a few mentions of faith in this thread. To not belabor the point, I am a Christian with all of the moral instruction that entails to give a background of my thoughts.

    Also mentioned are the stages of technological development and acceptance. I've been a techie all my life and yet my thought is that technical progress could stop right now and we'd all be fine. In fact we might all be better for it to give humanity a few generations to adjust.

    I've been around artificial insemination all of my life as it was, and probably still is, a very common practice with dairy cattle herds. We still use it to some extent with our beef herd to obtain genetics otherwise not available. Other than the delivery method, it's all completely natural once sperm meets egg.

    I recall in the '80s the pronouncements of test tube babies and of cloning and regarded each as somewhat interesting scientific/technological developments, but certainly not anything I wished to involve myself in. I could be more accepting of a test tube baby in the case of a mother having physical issues with post conception gestation but then there are a great many children in this world available for adoption and in need of love so at what point do things like test tube babies become more DNA egotism than a helpful technology?

    Cloning really seems to fall into the realm of DNA egotism and really outside the bounds of creation's natural laws. Conception in a test tube stretches this boundary of creation's natural laws to the limit, IMO. Cloning jumps the fence into "playing God", IMO.

    The first I recall reading about artificial womb tech may have been on Nacho's forum eight years ago. That was certainly more unsettling to me. There are so many things that the developing baby experiences in the womb, not the least is its mother's voice, her movement, and probably even her emotions that are imprinted into the developing mind. An artificial womb may very antiseptically mimic some of these things but I'll posit that there are things that happen between the mother and the baby in the womb that neither, and certainly not science, are conscious of nor could mimic with any sort of success.

    I also believe that at conception the soul is intrinsically placed into the developing human being. I wonder if this could be possible with an artificial womb? Reason being that in Genesis we read that God breathed the breath of life into Adam. After the creation of Eve from Adam this breath of life, i.e. the soul, is passed on to each generation at conception. Many will probably disagree but this is why I find the concept of an artificial womb abhorrent.

    Finally, I am not a MGHOW because I want the earth devoid of women. I love their beauty and charm and though I have many men as friends and acquaintances women, though we understand their nature, are the spice of life. Like many men I'd have devoted my life to my own unicorn if she existed and had come into my life but since neither is true, I will not legally bind myself to a modern feminist. Make no mistake, all women in the west are modern feminists. It's simply a matter of degree. Still, even with the present day circumstances that make marriage a fool's errand, I cannot accept that humanity exists beyond the bounds of creation's natural law that has existed since Adam and Eve.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by WheelBarrow View Post
    Also mentioned are the stages of technological development and acceptance. I've been a techie all my life and yet my thought is that technical progress could stop right now and we'd all be fine. In fact we might all be better for it to give humanity a few generations to adjust.
    To this, even I agree that we can do a lot better with a bit slower tech advancement. What currently humanity is doing is like running mindlessly on a minefield, triggering many of them too fast.

    BUT, as I have said before, there are certain realities, which can force a group to either choose tech vs choose defeat from a high tech enemy.

    I always like to distinguish, very clearly, what can be the best choice in an ideal reality vs the best choice in "real reality". The difference is often significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by WheelBarrow View Post
    DNA egotism
    Based on observed human behavior, DNA egotism is as much, if not more, a "spice of life" as women. The people will even accept this, though with indirect terminology. One common way I have seen is that they tend to see their children who look like them as the extension of their life.

    So just like one is free to choose to have or not have women in their life, they are similarly free to choose whether to have their own children (by any means/tech necessary) or to adopt them. And just like a large portion of men would rather have women than not (including mgtows), a large number of people, both men and women, would rather raise their own kids if they can. Trying to influence their decision by an arbitrary moral standard will start moving into the realm of religious indoctrination, pretty similar to what is done to men, by the lunatic and extremely intolerant left/feminism, in cases of paternity fraud.
    If you dont understand recursion yet, read this sentence again.

  11. #31
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Good to see the replies. But I have to add another news that I should have posted before.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...china.amp.html

    "Chinese Scientist Claims to Use Crispr to Make First Genetically Edited Babies"

    I dont know if most of you are aware about this another news. A chinese scientist just created the two first genetically modified babies. Two girls. This happened at 2018 november, using Crispr, a biotechnology that can edit genetical code and can really create real life mutants.

    According to the chinese scientist who created these girls, their "superpower" is being immune to HIV virus.

    And mind you that another gene editing biotechnology, even more efficient, was already created last year, it's called Prime Editing.

    https://www.news-medical.net/amp/new...al-CRISPR.aspx

    "Prime editing enables more precise correction of genetic problems than traditional CRISPR"

    As you can see, according to some Mgtows, as I said before, creating artificial wombs may be not enough. Maybe we should create completely artificial girls, including genetically designed if possible. And as we can see in that news, in a near future it may be possible.

    Of course, some say that we may apply this kind of technology not only to choose the better physical and mental qualities to create artificial girls, but to ourselves as well (after all, we are not perfect beings, lol).

    At least, I already have read some Incels defending this kind of idea: using biotechnologies to become more "strong", "beautiful", "smart" and "alpha males". But I wonder that many Mgtows could accept this idea too.

    This actually is not a new idea, and did not come from Incels and Mgtows. There is even a philosophy called trans-humanism that defend this idea: using advanced technologies to transform humans into mutants or cyborgs.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism

    I already have read about some Mgtows supporting these kind of transhumanist ideologies, but I think that before this kind of weird idea become really applied, it must be better analyzed, as I said before. So I will let that another news here.

  12. #32
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Latinus View Post
    Maybe we should create completely artificial girls, including genetically designed if possible.
    Aaaaaah! Don’t you think there’re enough of them as is? (Joke)

    But seriously, if you genetically design human bodies and maybe even pre-dispose them to certain traits the question must be asked – are they still human or merely bots, pre-programmed to behave in a certain way?

    You may say this is true today; our long history has programmed us to behave in a certain way, but this feels different, and wrong, to me.
    Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. - Mark Twain.

  13. #33
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Aaaaaah! Don’t you think there’re enough of them as is? (Joke)
    Yeah !! We can do with a bit less of those, pls no more !

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    But seriously, if you genetically design human bodies and maybe even pre-dispose them to certain traits the question must be asked – are they still human or merely bots, pre-programmed to behave in a certain way?
    While I do think your question is very relevant, but when I think on it, it leads me to a different question, which can probably be used to answer your question.

    And that is, what is the purpose of humanity as a species on this planet ? Are we just supposed to live our day to day lives, following one urge after another ? Or should there be some long term goal ? Just a fair notice at start, what I am about to write are several "what-ifs". Things are very likely not to turn out the way I wrote, I obviously cant see future. But hopefully they still highlight the general issues that may await us in future.

    The answers to those will be different for different individuals, depending upon where they lie on short term vs long term satisfaction. There will be some who have very long term goals, inter-generational long term. Which means even if they are sure they will never attain those, they hope that their future generations will achieve them. One such goal can be becoming space faring and postponing the great filter by several centuries if not millenia.

    But those goals will require some very difficult decisions. And many of them will appear extremely bizzare to others. Genetic engineering can be one such example if you make space faring a goal. Space is no easy place. You have to be almost a perfect human being to have any hope in early stages of space travel, especially if the stay is going to be long. Genetic engineering has the potential to increase the availability and quality of such "perfect" humans, even if they might be imperfect for day to day lives on earth. Like everything, these are also tradeoffs.

    And that leads to the question, what if the "short-term-ers" feel threatened ? They will not like this and may only express their view with mere words at start. But this may change as things progress. Eventually the hostility may increase. What the "long-term-ers" are supposed to do then ? Just give up ? I dont think they will do that easily. What if they decide, that before they can have "perfect space civilian", they need "perfect war machine" ?

    The general point I want to make is, discussion of "ethics" can never settle down among humans. We all have very different view of what is ethical and what is not. And when disagreements cannot be removed by talking, the only options are to tolerate (agree to disagree), separate (go away) or war (eliminate others). So I think its important that whenever we raise an ethical question, regardless of which side of the fence we are, we should also discuss, in parallel, what to do if we disagree.
    If you dont understand recursion yet, read this sentence again.

  14. #34
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    It's difficult to weigh in on this without it becoming an "I believe in God and you don't" argument.

    I personally believe, and think the best way, is not to go there. Which is to say, just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should. There are often untold consequences to actions, and I believe part of what makes us ethical and moral humans is not going too far. In my book an example of going too far would be artificially producing a child to be 'perfect'; technologists may think this is a great idea but I wonder about the greater consequences of messing with nature/God.

    The general point I want to make is, discussion of "ethics" can never settle down among humans. We all have very different view of what is ethical and what is not. And when disagreements cannot be removed by talking, the only options are to tolerate (agree to disagree), separate (go away) or war (eliminate others). So I think its important that whenever we raise an ethical question, regardless of which side of the fence we are, we should also discuss, in parallel, what to do if we disagree.

    With this being the case then, we should discuss where the line is for you. I mean the line between acceptable/human vs unacceptable/inhuman.
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  15. #35
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    While I do think your question is very relevant, but when I think on it, it leads me to a different question, which can probably be used to answer your question.

    And that is, what is the purpose of humanity as a species on this planet ? Are we just supposed to live our day to day lives, following one urge after another ? Or should there be some long term goal ? Just a fair notice at start, what I am about to write are several "what-ifs". Things are very likely not to turn out the way I wrote, I obviously cant see future. But hopefully they still highlight the general issues that may await us in future.

    The answers to those will be different for different individuals, depending upon where they lie on short term vs long term satisfaction. There will be some who have very long term goals, inter-generational long term. Which means even if they are sure they will never attain those, they hope that their future generations will achieve them. One such goal can be becoming space faring and postponing the great filter by several centuries if not millenia.

    But those goals will require some very difficult decisions. And many of them will appear extremely bizzare to others. Genetic engineering can be one such example if you make space faring a goal. Space is no easy place. You have to be almost a perfect human being to have any hope in early stages of space travel, especially if the stay is going to be long. Genetic engineering has the potential to increase the availability and quality of such "perfect" humans, even if they might be imperfect for day to day lives on earth. Like everything, these are also tradeoffs.

    And that leads to the question, what if the "short-term-ers" feel threatened ? They will not like this and may only express their view with mere words at start. But this may change as things progress. Eventually the hostility may increase. What the "long-term-ers" are supposed to do then ? Just give up ? I dont think they will do that easily. What if they decide, that before they can have "perfect space civilian", they need "perfect war machine" ?

    The general point I want to make is, discussion of "ethics" can never settle down among humans. We all have very different view of what is ethical and what is not. And when disagreements cannot be removed by talking, the only options are to tolerate (agree to disagree), separate (go away) or war (eliminate others). So I think its important that whenever we raise an ethical question, regardless of which side of the fence we are, we should also discuss, in parallel, what to do if we disagree.
    Whilst I see your point of the need to survive as a race by venturing out into space, first the question must be asked: Is this the survival of the human race, or are we just sending out advanced descendants of our current probes and landers; ones that may be able to reproduce in some form O.K., but are they really human in terms you and I currently understand?

    Is this distinction real or imagined and is it important?

    For one I think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor
    In my book an example of going too far would be artificially producing a child to be 'perfect'; technologists may think this is a great idea but I wonder about the greater consequences of messing with nature/God.
    A great point, but this opens up another question of what it means to be “perfect”. Who gets to decide what “perfect” is and, as you say, what are the repercussions?
    Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. - Mark Twain.

  16. #36
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    With this being the case then, we should discuss where the line is for you. I mean the line between acceptable/human vs unacceptable/inhuman.
    Well, its great that you asked this !! That is exactly my purpose. You see, we both cannot really "talk" our differences, that much is long settled. While we may be two individuals, who may just go "meh whatever" and go the tolerance route, it may not work out with two communities. Tolerance doesnt always work out, in fact I'd say it rarely works out over long time. So then remains the question of separation and war. War is expensive, damages both sides, and we have enough tech to ensure that there is no winning it. Which is why I advocate for separation.

    The people doing the research into weird things, must make sure they DO NOT modify anything in the environment outside the area with whatever they make. Which means, assuming they are all based on an island for argument's sake, they cannot throw shit in ocean, cannot expose them to atmosphere, and cannot post the info on the common media. They just do their own thing, and if they feel like going out and dying in space, they do it on their own.

    In exchange, the other side looks the other way and control their population to NOT commit anything which forces either side to violate the agreement.

    If the researchers cannot assure that, then I am on the side of (normal ?) people. They are asking for it, and they should get it, period. I DO NOT condone releasing genetically modified biomass or radioctive stuff into air or water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Whilst I see your point of the need to survive as a race by venturing out into space, first the question must be asked: Is this the survival of the human race, or are we just sending out advanced descendants of our current probes and landers; ones that may be able to reproduce in some form O.K., but are they really human in terms you and I currently understand?

    Is this distinction real or imagined and is it important?

    For one I think it is.

    A great point, but this opens up another question of what it means to be “perfect”. Who gets to decide what “perfect” is and, as you say, what are the repercussions?
    Maybe I was unable to explain it. The answer to your questions are loaded with ethical choices. If you dont like my choice or my answer, how far will you tolerate the deviation and how far will you go to prevent me from doing it if that threshold is crossed ?

    And when I wrote "perfect" I meant perfect for the task. As a contrived example, a human "variant" may have an extra arm coming out of his chest and only one eye, but might be amazingly fit, immune to radiations and can hibernate for long periods without needing a cryo sleep. This "thing" is quite "perfect" for space exploration, even if grotesque for other humans.
    If you dont understand recursion yet, read this sentence again.

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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    As a contrived example, a human "variant" may have an extra arm coming out of his chest and only one eye, but might be amazingly fit, immune to radiations and can hibernate for long periods without needing a cryo sleep. This "thing" is quite "perfect" for space exploration, even if grotesque for other humans.
    On the contrary, I think you explained it quite well, but only from one perspective. I’m trying to throw in another perspective, and whilst myself and happybachelor may disagree on some of the reasoning behind it all, I think our conclusions are the same.

    A contrived example, I understand, but what’s the point if it isn’t human? Yes it may be able to survive, a technological and biological masterpiece, but why? Because we can? Fair enough, but if they aren’t human then what do we gain if the human race (as we know it) no longer exists because we could not follow their lead?

    What of “US” survives if physical and mental abilities are modified, whether well intentioned or not?

    Which, I think, brings us back to the original post.
    Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. - Mark Twain.

  18. #38
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    but only from one perspective.
    Exactly, the only perspective which you will get from a researcher. What it means to be human ? Which human, you talking about homo sapiens ? Or some other species. You have all the biology text available on internet to read about it. And thats the only definition we understand (or care about).

    But even with that definition available to you, you still persist in your question. And not only that, you add the word "but first" :

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    ... venturing out into space, first the question must be asked
    Which implies that it will determine whether you "approve" or not.

    But getting your approval is very time consuming and costly. Because you have your own arbitrary (and quite undefined, feeling based) sense of ethics. Its not possible for them to seek approval of every human on the planet.

    Like I have said before, I am not looking into every interpretation of everything. Biological definitions are demonstrated, and thats the one that matters when things work in a lab. Outside lab, the only thing that matters is whether other people, NOT involved with the research are harmed or not ? Because if they are harmed, they will be forced to retaliate.

    So assuming no harm is being done, which in simplified terms include direct physical, indirect physical (air, water), informational (not posting details of research on public media/internet). After that they dont need approval of anybody. If the other people STILL persist to annoy them or condemn them then only practical way for them is to go underground.

    And that is exactly what is happening. Read the articles, there are many universities involved, many outside China. So I suspect many countries, including but not limited to US are participating in research, its just that they are not doing them openly, and its possible that the most problematic researches they will conduct within China.

    I myself dont care about feelings, I care about actionable theories/plans, which can be executed. Seeking everyone's approval is not actionable. Trying to be unreasonably hostile will only make them go underground. By doing that, you essentially picked the strategically worst possible plan. No research will ever be stopped, as evidenced by history.
    If you dont understand recursion yet, read this sentence again.

  19. #39
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    but what’s the point if it isn’t human?
    This particular question is reasonable to an extent. I say to an extent because, while it makes sense to seek the answer, it is quite difficult, in fact often impossible.

    In simplified terms, the key is the difference between science and engineering, or theory and application. Theory has to come first, application comes later. The engineer's job is to take all the theories from science and then build something useful for "US". But if you go to scientists and ask "what use will this be for us ?". The answer you will get most often will be some variant of "we dont know", and if you persist, you will also get "we dont care".

    The scientists are seeking knowledge. That inhuman thing which I gave as an example, can go to space and let us study the space more, which will give us more theories for engineers to work on. Only then your question can be answered.

    Before that, it will be putting the cart in front of horse.
    If you dont understand recursion yet, read this sentence again.

  20. #40
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    As you say, there is all the information out there on the internet, but from my experience there is FAR more disinformation, or misinformation, whether well intentioned or not.

    I don’t know about you but I simply don’t have the time to try to decipher the whole of the world-wide-web, so I rely on my instinct.

    Call it feelz if you like, but it’s all I have to keep some sort of morality about myself.

    As for pushing scientific discovery underground, I agree with you in principle. As I have stated previously what can happen will happen, maybe the only thing that can be done is to postpone the inevitable.

    Then again, maybe not.

    People’s attitudes change both individually and societally.

    Your argument of pushing things underground may hold some truth, but at the same time it would suggest all laws are meaningless because they just push the criminals in to hiding – it doesn’t stop them, so why bother trying?

    Your question about what is human (homo-sapien) is much more interesting. This is what I was asking. If we (humans) genetically program the next generation (homo-superior) are they still us, albeit improved, or are they something other?

    If we ask these questions, and insist they be answered at least to some degree we may be able to stymie the flow until we understand it better.

    Science does not care about morality, but morality needs to be applied to science otherwise we are all just cogs in a machine, a machine bent on destroying us all.

    I am human. I have feelz. Sometimes these feelings lead me astray, but what would I be without them?
    Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. - Mark Twain.


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