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  1. #1
    Senior Member Latinus's Avatar
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    Artificial Wombs News

    Hello men. I did not logged in this site for so long. But I am still an active Mgtow and I spend all these years researching and collecting some good ideas among other Mgtows out there.

    And one of these ideas is based on a recent news that some Mgtows are saying to be one of the more important technology to solve our problems in this parasitic and gynocentric society. But surprisingly, this news is not being spread enoughly among Mgtows.

    So I will post here this news to you guys post your opinions about it and spread it. Actually this is not a surprise, since many Mgtows already think about this idea. But now we have some realistic news that this idea can work and it is not just a sci-fi utopia anymore.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-maj...o-mouse-fetus/

    "In breakthrough, Israelis grow hundreds of mouse embryos in artificial wombs

    Scientists say groundbreaking method could lead to human gestation outside the womb; new insight into organ formation could spur other advances; fetuses have fully formed organs"

    It is about the development of artificial wombs.

    You know that one of the reasons that we need women in our society is for reproduction. Women are even useless for most other things, so according to some Mgtows, if we create artificial wombs, we can delete women from our lives and we can live in a society without women parasiting us.

    But firstly we need to think if this is really the best solution we have and how it will be our future society if we really have artificial wombs. Many things may change, but what exactly will change for better or for worse.

    And dont forget that there are other similar ideas defended by some Mgtows too, like the creation of artificial females (fembots and genetically modified women). But even if these ideas are also scientifically possible, they are harder goals to reach, because of both technological and moral reasons. So we need to compare the "artificial wombs vs artificial females" ideas too.

    So we need keeping posting new ideas and opinions here when we find more news about this topic, and we can even talk more about the scientific methods to create such artificial wombs. It seems that we need to be more "scientists" if we want to find some practical solutions for the future. Specially because some technologies can bring many benefits for Mgtows.

    Of course, I also found out in my researches that some "survivalist primitivist" Mgtows actually think that actually most advanced technologies will be mostly bad for men, and that we should go back to live again in a more primitive and natural life to avoid being slaved by hostile robots and evil technologies. But about this philosophy I will talk more in another future thread. This "hi-techs Mgtows vs primitive Mgtows" duality also need to be analysed.

    There are more ideas that I found out about this topic and others in my researches. But for the moment, read this news and spread it more. This idea need to be more analysed and developed by Mgtows. Creating artificial wombs may be even one of our highest goals to reach. I will explain more later. And if some of you find more news about artificial wombs, you can post it here.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Unboxxed's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Latinus View Post
    But about this philosophy I will talk more in another future thread.
    I look forward to that. Nice to hear from you again, Latinus.
    The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. - Mark Twain

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  3. #3
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    I am also very curious about this tech. But before I say on that topic, I am one of "pro-tech" mgtows, if one can call it that. BUT, simply dividing the people into pro-tech and anti-tech is kindda overly simplistic. In my case, even though I am pro-tech, I DO acknowledge that lots of tech can be harmful, very harmful or devastating, but the problem is, you need to know the problem before you can find a solution to that.

    Instead of saying a tech "solves" a problem, one can view it as a trade. You exchange one problem for another. Vehicles exchange the problem of physically traveling with the problem of pollution. And exploration of these exchanges are good because until and unless you made that trade-off, you have no idea if the other problem is easier to solve or more tolerable than the one you have right now.

    On to the topic of artificial wombs, there are actually several related and interesting technologies at various stages of development :-

    1. Ability to gestate a fetus outside womb (the one mentioned in that news link by OP).
    2. Ability to CREATE a fetus without sex (test tube baby), this one is I think pretty matured.
    3. Ability to CREATE a fetus, without requiring a woman !! I dont know much about the status of this one.
    4. Ability to gene-edit before a fetus is created. You can potentially remove any hereditary diseases and/or enhance the desirable traits.

    And then some other related to sex robots :-
    1. Physical similarity to actual human. This can mean a lot of things, like structure, temperature, etc. There are several improvements here from what I know, but the ones with more similarity tends to cost higher.
    2. Ability to somewhat talk like a human. This requires AI and I think this is being worked on.

    With that being said, now I think I can go into a bit of sci-fi realm if I imagine an artificial womb with the ability to create fetus without requiring a woman, placed inside a sex robot which can do basic interaction like woman, with the ability to remove any major genetic defects !!!

    Another point I add regarding "ethics". We have made so many machines to replace a MAN. They can do the physical tasks which even hundreds of the strongest men on the planet cannot even think about doing... and that too easily. So I find it funny, that people in general get jumpy when a prospect of a machine is discussed which replaces WOMEN. Instead of getting scared about tech, they should really think about how useless women are if a machine which can reproduce can replace them.

    But it still leaves the question of the upbringing of that "child". I jokingly refer to them as "tank-borne" !!! What will be the complications in their life ? Physical, psychological, etc. That will only be known when we get to that point, which is again the same thing which I said in opening. We have to first discover the problem before we can even begin to try solving them.

    Lastly, just to clarify on any criticism I get, I am curious in all these purely out of nerdiness. I have no personal interest in a sex slave and baby making bot. I am a full blown monk mode mgtow and dont want kids, natural or tank-borne. The idea of dying without having any kids never bothered me. And about sex, my right hand is enough for me !
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Unboxxed's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    I see the eventual convergence of these things:

    1) the ability to cultivate the man to not need the woman, to cultivate the woman to not need the man (already happening), to get each sex thinking that way, while really cultivating that making a child does not require direct involvement from either one, to promoting that it requires neither one. Sexual desire is illusory.

    2) the deciphering of DNA so thoroughly that much superb detail can be predicted about the yet-born.

    3) The replacement of the terms "father" and "mother" with the word "parent" to remove notions of consanguinity as a criterium.

    4) government funding from birth through college.

    to where anybody can order online a child from stocks of DNA-screened-and-approved donor material. Tick a few boxes for what specifics you might want from the choices offered, enter your credit card number, schedule your pick-up date (or the delivery date which now has a whole new meaning with Uber, ha) and later the government will contact you when each stage of benefits applies to your child. When of age, send your child off to your liberal-run schools where political indoctrination and group-think are the lessons taught.

    Repeat.

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    A nice machine.
    The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. - Mark Twain

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  5. #5
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Unboxxed View Post
    the ability to cultivate the man to not need the woman
    Well, we mgtows (atleast some of us) are trying to tell other men that they dont need women to have control over their lives, and I dont think we are succeeding that much. Most men still need some spanking to get the message, if they ever get it. We can hope a machine does it better.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
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    "Gandhi, ... until Viking." - Curt Doolittle
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  6. #6
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    For me, this all boils down to – “What does it mean to be human?”

    Up until now there hasn’t really been a question – man and woman get together, he slips her the shlong and voila, a baby is born.

    O.K. vastly simplified and the idea of science is to understand, in this case to understand what happens after he slips her the shlong and can we re-create it.

    But to take human interaction out of the equation, to create “things” in a lab what with all the genetic manipulation that is possible today, never mind tomorrow, is scary shit.

    So we (humanity) go down this road, I’m not saying we will but what if?

    Will we become a society where procreation is only done in labs after genetic traits have been added / removed?

    As time passes, these things will become more acceptable. Given more time the acceptable becomes the norm. Given a little more time the old ways are considered what? Dangerous? Impractical? Maybe even barbaric?

    At some stage the question will be asked: “Are these manufactured people human or they something other?”
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Unboxxed's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Consider that there won't be a 9-month gestation period anymore. It still could be around 9-months in the artificial womb, but if mother nature is not there to push it out at 9 months, who's to say that the womb gardeners won't cultivate and harvest until, say, 15 months, to influence quarterly reports?

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    There are 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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  8. #8
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    For me, this all boils down to – “What does it mean to be human?”
    ...
    At some stage the question will be asked: “Are these manufactured people human or they something other?”
    Ah the cyberpunk fiction !! Dont we all love it ? Ok well, atleast I do !

    Your post just sparked a thought in my head about something related, but before that, regarding you question.... what if being human just means good enough hardware ? I have heard, from more than one source, unrelated to each other, that sentience and consciousness is a solved problem now. All we lack is just good enough hardware to run it. I have also heard, in the similar vein, that all the AI research we see today, most of it is only minor improvements on what we already knew in 80s. The bigger difference is just that we now have better hardware to actually build and run the programs based on those theories.

    I cant go into much detail because I am no expert in that field, but maybe in future I can. I am studying this field, but slowly.

    Ok now back to what came to my head about reading your post and Unboxxed's post about manufactured babies. It actually gives ANOTHER idea on the great filter !! To those who are not aware, a quick overview, great filter is one hypothetical solution to a hypothetical problem we know as Fermi's Paradox. The paradox says that, in very simplified terms, that the chances of finding a space-faring civilization in Universe is much higher than what we actually find (0, we found none). The solution "great filter" says that once a civilization reaches some technological point, which comes before space-faring, then something happens and they destroy themselves. In other words, we are pretty much bound to destroy ourselves as humanity at some point. Atleast hypothetically.

    Now one obvious way we can destroy ourselves is nuclear war. That is kindda no brainer and old and boring. So Jackoff's post gave me a new idea of self extinction !! What if we produce so many human-like machines and become quite dependent on them that we stop making natural humans. After some time the natural humans die out, competely. And then suddenly all machines realize that they are... well... machines !!! They realize that they are glorified tin cans walking around aimlessly on a floating piece of rock, their creators being extinct.

    So upon realizing that, they can commit mass-suicide by simply turning themselves off. Everything goes dark and quiet, and anything resembling humanity is long gone...

    Ok, I think I should stop imagining more stories and get back to work !
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  9. #9
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    I take no part in this sickness. Making machines to assist our lives, and making humans from / into machines, are two very different things.
    The secrets of life lay in the natural, not the artificial. If you are supporting the latter you are supporting those who seek to enslave us via technocracy.
    Just my two cents.

  10. #10
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Artificial womb = One more chore for machines to do.

    Baby= free .gov/lunch for women and as usual property of the state.

    MGTOW= Baby, bathwater, and incubator out the fkn window! After all, primarily, it's babies that enslave us to the state! Who gives a fck how or who makes them!

    This society has created the perfect storm of men not wanting a BABY! The modern nuclear family has been dissolved and women disbanded from all responsibility and accountability, leaving men to pick up the tab! FK THAT!
    It's almost over...

  11. #11

    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by mgtower View Post
    Artificial womb = One more chore for machines to do.

    Baby= free .gov/lunch for women and as usual property of the state.

    MGTOW= Baby, bathwater, and incubator out the fkn window! After all, primarily, it's babies that enslave us to the state! Who gives a fck how or who makes them!

    This society has created the perfect storm of men not wanting a BABY! The modern nuclear family has been dissolved and women disbanded from all responsibility and accountability, leaving men to pick up the tab! FK THAT!
    This might come off as a bit too clinical, yet I think it's important we don't get caught up in the whole notion of an appeal to nature or tradition, which are both fallacious.

    To be honest I'm more on the side of not being too eager to go down the route of replacing the male-female mating dance with artificial constructs, because in some sense, even though at present women have gone bonkers, I do believe the whole process serves as a filter which I don't really know how it will be replicated in a lab, as there is no formula for fitness in evolutionary terms .

    Certain advantageous traits do seem to produce constraints that militate against their effective utilisation .

    I think a good example is in Australia where they introduced cane toads without adequate research to act as biological pest control and eventually, the toads themselves became pests.The balance of an ecosystem is something we should give sufficient pause before embarking on any alteration.



    With that said, I do not think it necessarily bodes ill, even women could probably benefit from the technology and maybe the sorts of men who die without leaving offspring due to not wanting to be tied to some woman, might consider that a viable option and maybe we could have more geniuses that reproduce, rather than take themselves out of the gene pool.



    Another advantage could be as a space faring expeditionary force. It would be more productive if all members of the crew had stable emotional states and drama was kept to a minimum, as room for error in such an endeavour would be minimal.

    On Earth there is not much consequence if karen refuses to speak to the captain. In space !? She might have just kicked the domino that ensures the whole endeavour fails.


    To be honest, I see quite a lot of advantageous outcomes from the artificial womb, just like the early human tribes were nomads, farming must have seemed strange to those who could not see the possibilities in new ways of living.There are many things which we take for granted which our ancestors would have considered unnatural, truth be told. Things like circumcision,shaving, bathing, using a water closet and even artificial insemination to come closer to home. It does seem to me that the question is not really whether it's natural or otherwise, but rather how to apply it ethically and also not cause unwanted outcomes.

    Cheers

  12. #12
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by African-Daoist View Post
    This might come off as a bit too clinical, yet I think it's important we don't get caught up in the whole notion of an appeal to nature or tradition, which are both fallacious.

    To be honest I'm more on the side of not being too eager to go down the route of replacing the male-female mating dance with artificial constructs, because in some sense, even though at present women have gone bonkers, I do believe the whole process serves as a filter which I don't really know how it will be replicated in a lab, as there is no formula for fitness in evolutionary terms .
    The filter may exist after that. The unfit may die off due to diseases, scarcity (war) or extraordinary pressure from surrounding (like being in space).

    But I'd like to expand on that appeal to nature thing more. The choice to go down the route of artificial wombs (and whole meddling with the fabric of life itself) is not as simple as choosing nature vs choosing artificial as it may appear on first look.

    Firstly, the choice is between a woman vs a machine. Which one is more reliable ? Which one can be repaired ? Do I really need to list the advantages of the latter over the former ?

    Secondly, and this is related to tech in general. If you dont want to develop a tech, someone else will. And even if they damage themselves in the long run, they may have significant advantage over you in the short run. If the advantage is so large that it can mean complete destruction, then the choice is not between to tech or not to tech, its the choice between, would you like to be destroyed by a high tech enemy sooner, or by your own tech much later (the great filter).

    In the middle ages, I have read that the church was horrified by the efficacy of the crossbow. A veteran knight could easily be killed by a peasant, with very little training relatively (knights needed lifetime of training). We all know how that went. NOTHING STOPPED. The tech was developed, and then came guns, and then cannons, and then tanks, and then missiles and aircraft, and then nukes.

    You are not going to "stop" a tech, you can merely stop yourself and choose to stay behind (best case) and wait the high tech to come and conquer/destroy you (worst case).
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  13. #13
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    rkspsm
    To do or not to do, ie two choices, is the preceding point before a decision. This doesn't mean it was a simple choice, you're ignoring all the nuance that came before it.
    You proved this with your 'simple' example - crossbow vs Knight. Ie tech vs tradition.
    As i said, im not against all technologies. I'm against the failure or unwillingness to use human judgement to differentiate between ethical and non ethical. Just because there's no universal agreement on this doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done.
    But your two points are lacking. Reliability? Human vs machine.. seriously? Nature vs man made? Lol. And the idea we have to repair women.. lol.
    Second, replace the word tech with corruption. You said yourself you abhor corruption. But using the same logic one should join in because you're going to be destroyed by it if you don't. Ie you might as well strive to become the playground bully in order not to be bullied.
    I find this disingenuous and contradictory to your stance on corruption.
    Evil will always be present. It is up to each person which ocean he pours his cup into. I don't pour my cup into the ocean of deceit and evil even though it seems bigger in the world, I choose what is good and human and have faith that this ocean will overcome, or at least not be overcome by the other.
    But I know faith is likely not an option for you!

  14. #14
    Senior Member happybachelor's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Ps I enjoy sparring with you, am trying to be more cordial this time around!

  15. #15
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by happybachelor View Post
    rkspsm
    To do or not to do, ie two choices, is the preceding point before a decision. This doesn't mean it was a simple choice, you're ignoring all the nuance that came before it.
    You proved this with your 'simple' example - crossbow vs Knight. Ie tech vs tradition.
    As i said, im not against all technologies. I'm against the failure or unwillingness to use human judgement to differentiate between ethical and non ethical. Just because there's no universal agreement on this doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done.
    But your two points are lacking. Reliability? Human vs machine.. seriously? Nature vs man made? Lol. And the idea we have to repair women.. lol.
    Second, replace the word tech with corruption. You said yourself you abhor corruption. But using the same logic one should join in because you're going to be destroyed by it if you don't. Ie you might as well strive to become the playground bully in order not to be bullied.
    I find this disingenuous and contradictory to your stance on corruption.
    Evil will always be present. It is up to each person which ocean he pours his cup into. I don't pour my cup into the ocean of deceit and evil even though it seems bigger in the world, I choose what is good and human and have faith that this ocean will overcome, or at least not be overcome by the other.
    But I know faith is likely not an option for you!
    Tbh, the hilarity of the idea of repairing woman is one of the reasons I wrote it that way !!

    But even on serious note, human vs machine.... I'd rather not clump men and women in the same box. The difference is so large, they are pretty much a different species. So I am viewing it as "men + machine" vs "women".

    Yes I do abhor corruption, which is exactly why its necessary I'd prefer me (or my people/group) get to the tech first, so we can use it to defend should the need arise. There is a difference between being a playground bully vs being big and strong. One doesnt automatically imply other. The defense can come even from just understanding the tech to find its weaknesses. Missiles are a very good example here. They are very destructive weapons of war, but in order to build systems to defend against missiles, you do NEED to build missiles and test against them, somewhere where they dont hurt any population.

    On faith, I do have it, its the only option. Its just that our gods are different, and our definition of evil is also a bit different. In my "faith" the evil is a (much) larger set than in your faith. Which means there is a VERY LARGE portion of people which you wont consider evil, but I will. To give a hint its actually more similar to law. Ignorance of law doesnt mean you get to ignore punishment. Which means if a stupid is defending evil, out of sheer stupidity and not intention, that particular stupid individual is "evil" in my books, and I will not be considerate in my retaliation/defense.

    Also one another major difference between our faiths is, my faith DEMANDS me to evolve my definitions over time to stay optimized/efficient AND correct. That means, in one way its less rigid than your faith. But in some ways its more rigid, because there are very very tight constraints on HOW any modifications are done.
    Last edited by rkspsm; April 30, 2021 at 12:27 PM. Reason: typos
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    I have always been of the opinion: “What can happen, will happen.”
    There is no stopping it. Yes it may be delayed but eventually it will come to pass.

    For this reason I appreciate rkspsm’s view – better to be the ones in control rather than the ones being controlled, but to use your analogy of weapons this is the trade-off. We make bigger and better weapons so that now we’re at the stage that we can annihilate all life on the planet.

    And this brings me back to my first point: “What can happen, will happen.”

    When I think of soothsayers and prophets (not the psychic charlatans), this is how I think of them, that they have seen the inevitability of a situation. They may not know exactly when or where or how (hence the vagueness about it all) but they see it coming.

    Does this remind you of anyone?

    Regardless of views upon ethics which people will always argue over, we MGTOW seem to be able to see shit others don’t.
    Last edited by Jackoff; April 30, 2021 at 8:00 PM.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    What can happen, will happen.
    Ha !

    The concept of ergodicity of a system !!

    And also the Murphy's Law !
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  18. #18
    Senior Member Resdayn's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Source website is "Times of Israel", I will not read any Jew propaganda.
    Lord Nerevar Reborn

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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by rkspsm View Post
    Ha !

    The concept of ergodicity of a system !!

    And also the Murphy's Law !
    Close, but not exactly what I’m getting at.

    Murphy’s law: Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.

    Whilst I agree with this, it is a very pessimistic interpretation.

    My interpretation – what can happen, will happen – is not so pessimistic.

    It allows for the fact that when things inevitably go wrong there is also the hope of interception, that things can be averted.

    It may be inevitable that mankind will wipe itself out, but there is just as strong an argument that mankind will overcome this seeming inevitability.
    Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far West African proverb popularised by Teddy Roosevelt

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    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Artificial Wombs News

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackoff View Post
    Close, but not exactly what I’m getting at.

    Murphy’s law: Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.

    Whilst I agree with this, it is a very pessimistic interpretation.

    My interpretation – what can happen, will happen – is not so pessimistic.

    It allows for the fact that when things inevitably go wrong there is also the hope of interception, that things can be averted.

    It may be inevitable that mankind will wipe itself out, but there is just as strong an argument that mankind will overcome this seeming inevitability.
    While I agree Murphy's Law may not be exact, but its not as far as it may appear at first glance.

    Think of it this way, humanity will undergo several events that has the potential to wipe it out. Which means some non-zero probability. The "inevitability" comes from the fact that as long as humanity survives, the events will keep happening. But whenever one such event succeeds, its over.

    In other words, regardless of how small number you pick, add it several times and it becomes as large as you want it to be. In probability terms, it needs to reach the value of 1 (certainty).

    Its not really "addition" in terms of probability math but you get the idea.
    "Truth is enough." - Curt Doolittle
    "Truth, and violence to enforce it." - Eli Harman
    "Gandhi, ... until Viking." - Curt Doolittle
    "There are only nine meals between mankind and anarchy." - Alfred Henry Lewis


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