Thread: After almost 10 years, GYOW is winding down (we will end the forums on May 10)

After a long period of soul-searching and examination, we will be winding down GYOW.

It has been a good ~10 years. I've enjoyed the camraderie of this community and made a bunch of friends like many of you have.

Thank you all for your company over the years; and for the laughs we've had together.

Maintaining this site over the years, the server costs, the cost for consultations to fix VBulletin, the design etc. has cost me mid 5-digits and considerable time for moderation, overall site management etc. (credit to the other Mods as well for putting in so much time).

It was all worth it for the 10 years we had together - I think we've all learned so much and benefitted from having a community of men where could share & relate to one another.

The bottom line...... is I've come to see MGTOW as doing more harm than good. The original spirit of MGTOW for men to do their own thing, without being overly influenced by women, was good. But it has influenced far too greatly by incel ideology, which was never the purpose of MGTOW. It's increasingly become a refuge for those who don't see eye to eye with anyone, those retaining overly paranoid conceptions of the opposite sex (versus nuanced caution), and those who've, unfortunately, largely just given up on the world and life.

If you read our Principles, we intended to be the exact opposite.

301 Moved Permanently

I don't want to contribute any further to an ideology that's leading people astray.

There are many people here who understood what we're really about. And I'm sure you'll find a good community somewhere else to continue discussions among men that are productive, constructive, and positive.

So here's the plan.

In 3 months time - on May 10th - GYOW will be shut down for good. I am giving ample notice so people can find another community that is a fit for them.

Here is one option:

* https://communities.win/c/MGTOW - MGTOW community - has some similarities to MGTOW SubReddit

Over the next 3 months, we will likely disable parts of the forum and features incrementally, just like a bar that's gradually turning out the lights. I encourage you to find another place sooner, not later. Feel free to share recommendations for other communities here on the forum.

That's all folks.

Thank you Jargmeister for running the site for so long. All good things must come to an end.

To everyone, its been fantastic having a place to speak to like minded men. I was in a dark place when I first came here. The rationality, patience and empathy of this site and those who run and moderate it helped me get to a better state of mind.

Thank you to all of you, for putting time, effort and consideration into your posts and responses. Thank you for the advice. Thank you for the knowledge shared.

I wish you all the very best.

Sorry you feel that way, Jag, thanks for all you've done, but crashing the site instead of selling it is your choice and I for can respect that, I've been in your shoes so I know what I'm talking about, enjoy your new pet project and god bless.

Here's another MGTOW forum for anyone that's interested

https://mengtow.freeforums.net/board...ral-discussion

WanderLuster bids adieu!

So long chaps!

Good to have known you all but nothing ever stays the same. Life is constant change and the sooner we figure that out and accept it, the better we can handle it.
Thank you for everything Jagrmeister, this forum has given me much enjoyment and an opportunity to give insight and life advice to other members, and also receive the same in return.

Most forums, and this one is no exception, has a familiar life cycle. The creator is heralded as a savior in the beginning and enjoys an elevated status among it's members. Over time, the moderators begin to shape the mood and overall atmosphere of the site and the creator feels that his influence is slowly waning, together with his initial rate of influence among the members. For a while, that scoots along but at some point the creator puts his foot down to assert his control.
What usually happens next is determined by the size of the egos of the people involved. At this point there might be push back from the members and even the moderators themselves. In most cases the creator starts banning members left and right before grabbing his ball and going home.
I've seen this scenario play out over and over again on different forums and I determined that this is simply a human and societal behavior pattern.

Good luck to everyone and see you on the next forum before that one flames out. And then the forum after that

Originally Posted by Chris007

Most forums, and this one is no exception, has a familiar life cycle. The creator is heralded as a savior...... Over time, the moderators begin to shape the mood and overall atmosphere of the site and the creator feels that his influence is slowly waning, together with his initial rate of influence among the members. ....the creator feels that his influence is slowly waning, together with his initial rate of influence among the members.

Just to be clear that's not what's happening here. I have no dispute with the mods whatsoever. Nor do I feel we at gyow have more misguided posters than any other mgtow community. What's happening to MGTOW is "global" in the sense you see it everywhere. The problems we have are the problems other communities have. I know there's a better answer for men out there somewhere.

Originally Posted by jagrmeister

Just to be clear that's not what's happening here. I have no dispute with the mods whatsoever. Nor do I feel we at gyow have more misguided posters than any other mgtow community. What's happening to MGTOW is "global" in the sense you see it everywhere. The problems we have are the problems other communities have. I know there's a better answer for men out there somewhere.

It was not meant as disrespect to you personally Jagr, just my overall observations.

In fact, you have contributed a tremendous amount of great content, and an invaluable forum for a lot of men. It should be recognized and applauded Sir.

Jag, have you considered a redirect for gyow.com, where anyone that attempts to log in is redirected to a chosen page on your new site, I'm sure there's some long standing members you'd like to maintain contact with, you know, "friends".

The URL : goingyourownway.com link is simply redirected, your new site's admin page may even have an allowance for this option, mine had 3 free redirects that came with the package.

Hate to see you cut off the whole arm when only the hand has cancer.

Just like to see you come out the other side without any regrets, we all deserve to treat ourselves better than that.

Originally Posted by mgtower

Here's another MGTOW forum for anyone that's interested

https://mengtow.freeforums.net/board...ral-discussion

Thanks Mate, it looks like a few of are migrating that way...

Thank you all for the enlightenment!

For a long time now I been telling myself that I was seeing our early years through rose colored glasses. Maybe I was, its what geezers do ya know. But I was wrong.

It's not a crusade anymore. While we still get a few quality rookies, what I've seen lately is a lot of people looking for somewhere they can be a dick, and it's getting worse. I don't have any stats, but the last six months I'm sure Unboxxed and I have broken all records for banning salesmen, trolls and nutcases. And that don't count the ones with lousy attitudes who probably should have got the chop. If Unboxxed has sometimes looked like a hard ass lately I'd lay a lot of it on the kind of members we don't want yet have been getting.

Part of me hates the idea. I may a broken down geezer, but am far happier than I've ever been in my life, and this place is the reason. I've also met many fine brothers who would shine in any crowd. For a guy who never thought he'd be a Senior member, let alone a mod I'm living the dream. But if our fearless leader doesn't like what his creation has become, well that's the way the cookie crumbles. Thanks Jag, you're a giant in my eyes.

Another thing he deserves credit for is not pulling the plug five years ago when the place was nearly a ghost town. It would be a weekday afternoon on the west coast, early evening in the east, and later at night in Europe. I'd check in before leaving work, and day after day there were maybe five members logged on. How many guys would continue to fund a site with so little action?

Sorry aboutthe site closing. Thi is going to take some time to process.

A fond farewell to everyone here, and a tip of my hat and thanks to Jagr. I appreciate the work you put in, and the truly class act by giving us all warning and a suggested new refuge. I was one of the refugees from the r/mgtow subreddit and I found myself more comfortable here. That said, let me state that on both this board and the old reddit boards, I sometimes found myself wondering about attitudes.

Feel free to hate on me for this; maybe life hasn't burned me as hard as it's burned some of you, but I don't hate women in general. Don't get me wrong, I very much hate any woman that makes use of our skewed legal system and societal beliefs to screw a man over, but my real hatred and disgust is for the system that allows...even encourages...this to happen. I am irritated by a society that rewards and lauds anyone for trivial actions, but I feel disgust and hatred for anyone who acts like I'm wrong for not joining in on the false praise.

To me, MGTOW was each man looking at what the societal norms for him are, and feeling free to conform to some or none of them. It's the freedom to decide what's right for him without worrying about what's the most beneficial to the society that surrounds him. As long as you're not harming anyone else, do what you will. Granted, since a man is expected to expend a great deal of time and money pursuing women...or one woman in particular...the greatest time and money savings is going to be foregoing romantic relationships. I believe that MGTOW is at its best when it warns younger men...through fact and example...how dangerous interactions, especially romantic interactions, with women can be. However, a MGTOW posting that all women are just manipulative bitches who want to bed Chad, drain a beta of his money, make false accusations towards her boss or neighbor and then be lauded as stunning and brave; rings just as hollow to me as a feminist spouting that all men are evil rapists who use the capitalistic patriarchy to oppress and degrade all women.

There's a fine line between a hate rant and a warning. That fine line isn't easily defined and it can be at a different place for different people. Let me leave by thanking all of the mods for trying to define that line on these forums. Farewell everyone, thank you for your input and opinions, even if I occasionally did not agree with them. Here's hoping to meet up with you on a new site in the future.

Everything has it's season.

I would like to say that I appreciate all the hard work Jägermeister, Unboxxed, and the other mods have done. JM built an excellent MGTOW site that stood above the rest. I've improved in many areas of my life, thanks in part to the support from this forum. Since becoming a member here, I've lost 20 pounds via dietary and exercise improvements, and I've overhauled my living space to be a super clean and organized one that I'm proud of. Yes, I did the work to make that happen, but this site is part of the reason I believed in myself, that I could do it. This site has had more positive impact on my life than any other.

Here on Goingyourownway.com we've absolutely obliterated the stereotype of a MGTOW just being some kind of loser who hates on women. We're not anything like incels here. Most men here were married or in a long-term relationship, and got sex. I must respectfully disagree with Jägermeister that MGTOW has become infused with incel ideology. While I agree that there are incels out there who become fake MGTOWs, I believe we've avoided that here. We've shut down and banned bozos who say crap like using violence is okay. We've been about building up lives here, and not complaining about not getting sex. Most of us here have ways of getting sex if we want it anyway. Again, the disagreement is 100 percent respectful. JM is the one who made this site possible. I believe the main difference is many MGTOW here do have bad memories of some crappy behavior by women. Maybe you got deployed as a soldier for 36 months and were excited to finally come home, but you learned your wife had been cheating the whole time. Most of us have had some kind of rotten experience like that, and it's perfectly acceptable to get it off your chest, and even do so using coarse language. The difference between us and incels is we get it off our chest, and then move on, accepting that women's nature sucks, and so we'll move on and build a great life. The incel gets stuck in complaining, "Women shouldn't be like this, and this is what they should do instead so that my life is better." We don't do that. We choose to focus on what we can make better. Women aren't going to get any better. They have no incentive to do so. That's just how it is.

I'll move on to one of the other MGTOW sites. It would be tough for any of them to be as good as this one has been. Again, many thanks to jägermeister. Please don't see my disagreement as anything other than respectful, because there's no one I respect more. We just see some things differently.

I've introduced myself on the other page. We'll work to support men there as well.

Originally Posted by jagrmeister

In 3 months time - on May 10th - GYOW will be shut down for good.

Well, that gives us three months to autopsy the dying message board and provide our own postmortems for why it didn't work out.

Let me be the first to start. Probably going to get some hate for this post. But whatever.

Jagrmeister said that GYOW was intended to be positive and upbeat, but that over time it has fallen into the trap of "incel ideology."

Here is how Jagr defined "positive and upbeat" (from the Principles): "Being true is about being inquisitive, thoughtful, curious, and insightful. [...] Red-Pill MGTOWs don't live life in a defensive crouch. [...A] sense of humor about the whole thing keeps it light. Which is what we want. [...I]ncreasingly the truth about the opposite sex becomes a source of belly laughs." In the Principles, Jagr also said not to be "absolutist, cynical, defeatist, a kind of “know-it-all”'ism with a shallow bumper-sticker logic behind it." He cautioned against "Paranoia & never-ending bitterness. Let's be real, but keep it upbeat."

Here is how he defined "incel ideology": "[GYOW has] increasingly become a refuge for those who don't see eye to eye with anyone, those retaining overly paranoid conceptions of the opposite sex (versus nuanced caution), and those who've, unfortunately, largely just given up on the world and life." Link: https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgto...12/#post198912

Also, Jadedoldman65 provided a good example of the negativeness of "incel ideology": "A MGTOW posting that all women are just manipulative bitches who want to bed Chad, drain a beta of his money, make false accusations towards her boss or neighbor and then be lauded as stunning and brave; rings just as hollow to me as a feminist spouting that all men are evil rapists who use the capitalistic patriarchy to oppress and degrade all women." Link: https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgto...33/#post198933

I think Jagr and Jadedoldman are on the mark.

Okay, so where did GYOW go wrong? My guess: Moral monism. Moral monism means setting up a moral (or religious or philosophical) yardstick based on a single principle, and it tends to lead to echo chambers, paranoia, and negativity.

In the case of GYOW, our moral yardstick is based on a single principle: Our disdain for women in particular and for gynocentrism in general. That's moral monism.

So let me spell it out in more detail.

Moral monism leads to echo chambers, paranoia, and negativity
Imagine that you have a political platform built upon a single principle. For example:
--A political platform that says, "Rich people are evil"
--A political platform that says, "Poor people are evil"
--..."Cops are evil"
--... "Conservatives are evil."
--... "Liberals are evil."
You get the idea. If you base your politics (or religious beliefs or whatever) on a single black-and-white principle, you tend to get extremist politics. From there, it's easy to find yourself yelling for a revolution and violence against the "evil" party.

Moral pluralism
How do you fix the problem of moral monism? The opposite of moral monism is moral pluralism. With moral pluralism, you embrace multiple moral principles, and you try to work out a compromise between them. For example: "Rich people are necessary for building a strong and prosperous country and should be allowed to keep as much of their earnings as possible. But poor people should be helped when possible via social safety nets. So there should be a certain amount of taxation of the rich to help the poor."

As in this example of the rich versus the poor, it's pretty obvious that moral pluralism leads to more moderate views and politics than moral monism. With moral pluralism, you have to balance and work out compromises between two goals, and so you end up with more moderate viewpoints and politics.

Does GYOW represent moral monism?
I would say that it does. Members of GYOW only have one moral principle in common: Women and gynocentrism are evil. Other than that, it's pretty difficult for a bunch of "rugged individualists" to find anything in common to discuss. So it's easy to fall back on the same old anti-feminist scripts and work up a little adrenaline and outrage complaining about how feminists are ruining everything in the world. In other words, there's always the danger of turning into an anti-feminist echo chamber.

Furthermore, it's not just alarmism on our part. After all, MGTOW forums are getting pushed off social media sites because of feminists. Feminists are definitely hating on the manosphere, and there's a certain amount of rationality in hating them back.

Still, moral monism leads to the kind of paranoia, negativity, and bitterness that Jagr labels "incel ideology." Furthermore, GYOW self-selects for a membership that is particularly disdainful of women: No married men, no men who might even consider a long-term relationship with women at any point in the future. The only people allowed on this board are hard-line MGTOW of the most extreme variant. Moral monism. Echo chamber.

Is this just a GYOW problem? No. Jagr said it himself:

Originally Posted by jagrmeister

[...]What's happening to MGTOW is "global" in the sense you see it everywhere. The problems we have are the problems other communities have. I know there's a better answer for men out there somewhere.

Again: In my opinion, that's because MGTOW represents moral monism at its heart. At its simplest: Women/feminism/gynocentrism are evil. And it's not enough to say, "Let's be upbeat about it and not bash women." At bottom, MGTOW men have only one thing in common: Disdain for women/feminism/gynocentrism. And when we keep on echoing that among ourselves, that is going to tend toward anti-feminist bitterness over time. Like it or not.

Moral pluralism
So are there examples of men-only moral pluralism somewhere out there? Of course. There are many. But moral pluralism means that a man's group has to be targeted at more than one moral/religious/philosophical principle. For example, in the old days there were lots of male-only clubs and lodges. But they had to be about more than just excluding women and having a penis and testicles. They had to have additional principles that drew men together:
Service to the community
Spiritual accomplishment
Hunting, fishing or sports

Or they need to have competing principles that result in more moderate views. A good example of this is MRAs: They are anti-feminists but also pledge to work together with women to achieve true equality.

Or they were about building a positive male archetype: Men's groups that create and share male rituals and initiations, men's groups that cultivate traditional male skills and values, etc.

I could talk more about men-only groups that embrace moral pluralism. But I'll stop here. Mainly, for this post I just wanted to autopsy MGTOW and show why it tends to lead to negativity, bitterness, and paranoia: It represents moral monism at its core. And when it tries to embrace moral pluralism, then it tends to turn into something else, like an MRA group or a male-only public service group.

By the way, this is a good lesson for ALL of politics. Want to know why politics are so divisive these days? Take a look at moral monism at the source. The internet probably has a lot to do with it. It's easy for moral monists to do a quick search and hunt down some group of people with similar politics. But such groups tend to represent moral monism and turn into echo chambers.

All of this is just my opinion of course. But it's difficult to see MGTOW as ever becoming more than an anti-feminist echo chamber of negativity and bitterness. Nothing wrong with that, but MGTOW can't ever really evolve past that. Because of moral monism.

Originally Posted by MGTOWLife

Well, that gives us three months to autopsy the dying message board and provide our own postmortems for why it didn't work out.

Let me be the first to start. Probably going to get some hate for this post. But whatever.

Jagrmeister said that GYOW was intended to be positive and upbeat, but that over time it has fallen into the trap of "incel ideology."

Here is how Jagr defined "positive and upbeat" (from the Principles): "Being true is about being inquisitive, thoughtful, curious, and insightful. [...] Red-Pill MGTOWs don't live life in a defensive crouch. [...A] sense of humor about the whole thing keeps it light. Which is what we want. [...I]ncreasingly the truth about the opposite sex becomes a source of belly laughs." In the Principles, Jagr also said not to be "absolutist, cynical, defeatist, a kind of “know-it-all”'ism with a shallow bumper-sticker logic behind it." He cautioned against "Paranoia & never-ending bitterness. Let's be real, but keep it upbeat."

Here is how he defined "incel ideology": "[GYOW has] increasingly become a refuge for those who don't see eye to eye with anyone, those retaining overly paranoid conceptions of the opposite sex (versus nuanced caution), and those who've, unfortunately, largely just given up on the world and life." Link: https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgto...12/#post198912

Also, Jadedoldman65 provided a good example of the negativeness of "incel ideology": "A MGTOW posting that all women are just manipulative bitches who want to bed Chad, drain a beta of his money, make false accusations towards her boss or neighbor and then be lauded as stunning and brave; rings just as hollow to me as a feminist spouting that all men are evil rapists who use the capitalistic patriarchy to oppress and degrade all women." Link: https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgto...33/#post198933

I think Jagr and Jadedoldman are on the mark.

Okay, so where did GYOW go wrong? My guess: Moral monism. Moral monism means setting up a moral (or religious or philosophical) yardstick based on a single principle, and it tends to lead to echo chambers, paranoia, and negativity.

In the case of GYOW, our moral yardstick is based on a single principle: Our disdain for women in particular and for gynocentrism in general. That's moral monism.

So let me spell it out in more detail.

Moral monism leads to echo chambers, paranoia, and negativity
Imagine that you have a political platform built upon a single principle. For example:
--A political platform that says, "Rich people are evil"
--A political platform that says, "Poor people are evil"
--..."Cops are evil"
--... "Conservatives are evil."
--... "Liberals are evil."
You get the idea. If you base your politics (or religious beliefs or whatever) on a single black-and-white principle, you tend to get extremist politics. From there, it's easy to find yourself yelling for a revolution and violence against the "evil" party.

Moral pluralism
How do you fix the problem of moral monism? The opposite of moral monism is moral pluralism. With moral pluralism, you embrace multiple moral principles, and you try to work out a compromise between them. For example: "Rich people are necessary for building a strong and prosperous country and should be allowed to keep as much of their earnings as possible. But poor people should be helped when possible via social safety nets. So there should be a certain amount of taxation of the rich to help the poor."

As in this example of the rich versus the poor, it's pretty obvious that moral pluralism leads to more moderate views and politics than moral monism. With moral pluralism, you have to balance and work out compromises between two goals, and so you end up with more moderate viewpoints and politics.

Does GYOW represent moral monism?
I would say that it does. Members of GYOW only have one moral principle in common: Women and gynocentrism are evil. Other than that, it's pretty difficult for a bunch of "rugged individualists" to find anything in common to discuss. So it's easy to fall back on the same old anti-feminist scripts and work up a little adrenaline and outrage complaining about how feminists are ruining everything in the world. In other words, there's always the danger of turning into an anti-feminist echo chamber.

Furthermore, it's not just alarmism on our part. After all, MGTOW forums are getting pushed off social media sites because of feminists. Feminists are definitely hating on the manosphere, and there's a certain amount of rationality in hating them back.

Still, moral monism leads to the kind of paranoia, negativity, and bitterness that Jagr labels "incel ideology." Furthermore, GYOW self-selects for a membership that is particularly disdainful of women: No married men, no men who might even consider a long-term relationship with women at any point in the future. The only people allowed on this board are hard-line MGTOW of the most extreme variant. Moral monism. Echo chamber.

Is this just a GYOW problem? No. Jagr said it himself:


Again: In my opinion, that's because MGTOW represents moral monism at its heart. At its simplest: Women/feminism/gynocentrism are evil. And it's not enough to say, "Let's be upbeat about it and not bash women." At bottom, MGTOW men have only one thing in common: Disdain for women/feminism/gynocentrism. And when we keep on echoing that among ourselves, that is going to tend toward anti-feminist bitterness over time. Like it or not.

Moral pluralism
So are there examples of men-only moral pluralism somewhere out there? Of course. There are many. But moral pluralism means that a man's group has to be targeted at more than one moral/religious/philosophical principle. For example, in the old days there were lots of male-only clubs and lodges. But they had to be about more than just excluding women and having a penis and testicles. They had to have additional principles that drew men together:
Service to the community
Spiritual accomplishment
Hunting, fishing or sports

Or they need to have competing principles that result in more moderate views. A good example of this is MRAs: They are anti-feminists but also pledge to work together with women to achieve true equality.

Or they were about building a positive male archetype: Men's groups that create and share male rituals and initiations, men's groups that cultivate traditional male skills and values, etc.

I could talk more about men-only groups that embrace moral pluralism. But I'll stop here. Mainly, for this post I just wanted to autopsy MGTOW and show why it tends to lead to negativity, bitterness, and paranoia: It represents moral monism at its core. And when it tries to embrace moral pluralism, then it tends to turn into something else, like an MRA group or a male-only public service group.

By the way, this is a good lesson for ALL of politics. Want to know why politics are so divisive these days? Take a look at moral monism at the source. The internet probably has a lot to do with it. It's easy for moral monists to do a quick search and hunt down some group of people with similar politics. But such groups tend to represent moral monism and turn into echo chambers.

All of this is just my opinion of course. But it's difficult to see MGTOW as ever becoming more than an anti-feminist echo chamber of negativity and bitterness. Nothing wrong with that, but MGTOW can't ever really evolve past that. Because of moral monism.

There's no moral monism here. I've been accepted and respected here even though I'm a liberal who supports abortion rights, health care for all, and am 100 percent pro vaccine. There are plenty others here who totally disagree with these stands, but we've been able to have completely civil interactions about them.

As for feminism, there are numerous men rotting in prison for crimes they did not commit thanks to feminism. The actual number is unknown, but the Innocence Project is constantly proving that a convicted rapist did not commit that crime at all. They prove all the time that a man was wrongfully convicted and must be released. It's easier to convict a man of rape via flimsy evidence than it ever was thanks to feminism. Some innocent men spent decades in prison for a rape they did not commit. So when feminists are a threat to take away any man's freedom, of course we oppose them! Feminism is a sick and evil ideology. Does it mean that every single feminist is a monster out to destroy men? No. But the ideology itself is fucked up. It does turn women into vicious, hateful, and cruel people. It's a cancer of a movement and deserves every bit of criticism that comes its way. That criticism seldom happens. It's quashed on the corrupt social media platforms out there. Criticism of feminism pretty much only happens in the manosphere, and I'm glad it happens on MGTOW platforms.

I do believe that feminism is a corrupt and evil ideology, and the cases of men unjustly convicted of rape via feminist laws proves that. When an ideology could cause you to have to rot in prison for decades for having done nothing wrong, you tend to see it as a threat. You tend to despise it. IMO, every man out there ought to be raising holy hell about how bad feminism is. Yes, there are probably a few feminists who are decent people, but there were some decent people in Nazi Germany too. It's the ideology that's sick. So protection against feminism is a huge part of MGTOW, IMO. It's the reason why you stick to business only if you have to work with women. No chit chat about personal things. It's why many MGTOW go into monk mode. That greatly reduces the chances of a phony accusation. It's why you don't talk about MGTOW outside of MGTOW circles. Feminists regularly try to get men they disagree with fired!

So, while I'm against any incel crap to the effect of, "How dare she not sleep with me?", I'm all for whatever criticism anyone has of feminism. We've shown many harms caused by feminism, and most of them are harms to men! So if some dude wants to slam feminism every day of his life, I'm good with that. The slave holders in America in the 18th and 19th centuries deserved every bit of vitriol that they got from the abolitionists. And feminists are just as awful and deserve that vitriol just as much. Being outraged that an innocent man had to waste 3 decades of his life in prison due to feminism is not the same thing as bitching, "Why won't she sleep with me?"

Originally Posted by TigPlaze

There's no moral monism here. I've been accepted and respected here even though I'm a liberal who supports abortion rights, health care for all, and am 100 percent pro vaccine. There are plenty others here who totally disagree with these stands, but we've been able to have completely civil interactions about them.

As for feminism, there are numerous men rotting in prison for crimes they did not commit thanks to feminism. The actual number is unknown, but the Innocence Project is constantly proving that a convicted rapist did not commit that crime at all. They prove all the time that a man was wrongfully convicted and must be released. It's easier to convict a man of rape via flimsy evidence than it ever was thanks to feminism. Some innocent men spent decades in prison for a rape they did not commit. So when feminists are a threat to take away any man's freedom, of course we oppose them! Feminism is a sick and evil ideology. Does it mean that every single feminist is a monster out to destroy men? No. But the ideology itself is fucked up. It does turn women into vicious, hateful, and cruel people. It's a cancer of a movement and deserves every bit of criticism that comes its way. That criticism seldom happens. It's quashed on the corrupt social media platforms out there. Criticism of feminism pretty much only happens in the manosphere, and I'm glad it happens on MGTOW platforms.

I do believe that feminism is a corrupt and evil ideology, and the cases of men unjustly convicted of rape via feminist laws proves that. When an ideology could cause you to have to rot in prison for decades for having done nothing wrong, you tend to see it as a threat. You tend to despise it. IMO, every man out there ought to be raising holy hell about how bad feminism is. Yes, there are probably a few feminists who are decent people, but there were some decent people in Nazi Germany too. It's the ideology that's sick. So protection against feminism is a huge part of MGTOW, IMO. It's the reason why you stick to business only if you have to work with women. No chit chat about personal things. It's why many MGTOW go into monk mode. That greatly reduces the chances of a phony accusation. It's why you don't talk about MGTOW outside of MGTOW circles. Feminists regularly try to get men they disagree with fired!

So, while I'm against any incel crap to the effect of, "How dare she not sleep with me?", I'm all for whatever criticism anyone has of feminism. We've shown many harms caused by feminism, and most of them are harms to men! So if some dude wants to slam feminism every day of his life, I'm good with that. The slave holders in America in the 18th and 19th centuries deserved every bit of vitriol that they got from the abolitionists. And feminists are just as awful and deserve that vitriol just as much. Being outraged that an innocent man had to waste 3 decades of his life in prison due to feminism is not the same thing as bitching, "Why won't she sleep with me?"

I agree with everything you said. That's why I joined here.

I'm just adding that MGTOW will never be anything more than a group of males echoing anti-feminist sentiment back and forth. Because we have absolutely nothing in common but our anti-feminist sentiment. So that's MGTOW's ultimate fate, and the best we can do as a group: An echo chamber for anti-feminist sentiment. That's it. That's the best we can do.

Furthermore I'm fine with that. But apparently Jagrmeister isn't fine with just being an echo chamber for anti-feminist sentiment. It seems Jagrmeister wants something more from MGTOW: Some kind of positivity and constructive attitude. So I was just pointing out why that's not going to happen. Moral monism tends toward paranoia and bitterness, not positivity and constructive attitude.

I was here at the start. Sad at the end. In the middle of it all. I lived my life, my way. This site was a great help in that.

Never marry. Never Cohabitate. Never impregnate. Live long and prosper gentlemen. I'm out.