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  1. #1

    WakingUp - 10 years of MGTOW - An overdue intro

    ~ 20 minute read ~

    Hey everyone,

    I've had an account here for quite some time but was never an active poster. The move of MGTOW HQ was pretty abrupt due to the domain not being renewed (it's controlled by another admin) so it's been difficult getting the word out on the new domain - one that does not have "mgtow" in its name and will remain private. Emails unfortunately don't get always get delivered and quite a few people had invalid addresses.

    I never wrote an intro on any mgtow forum until 2018 because they weren't required way back in 2010 when I joined and Happy Bachelors. Someone at Happy Bachelors wanted to know more about my marriage, so this is the story of how I got here, with minor adjustments from what I wrote back in 2018.

    This post is long and sad, and may be disgusting to some of you. There is no TLDR that would sum everything up. I've tried to make a complicated life story as concise as possible.

    For me the hardest red pills did not come from from being married but from a challenging youth and a hearing disability.

    My parents had me by accident when they were 18 and 19 years old. They are both from lower middle class backgrounds. My mother was molested by her father; my father's father was a small time criminal never really had a father. So they never got real parenting themselves.

    My parents split up when I was 6 years old, but they got along well enough so that I was able to see my father almost every weekend throughout my childhood. Until I became a teenager, they both tried very hard to raise me the best that they knew how.

    In the 90's, the stigma of being a single mother started to go away, so I never experienced any shame for being an accident.

    I didn't see anything wrong with only seeing my father on the weekend.

    When I was 14 my mother got married to a dorky guy from work whom she had zero attraction for. I was too young to know why this wasn't a good idea.

    My father had a temper and was always slamming things, punching holes in walls, and cursing whenever he was frustrated. He never abused me physically but the possibility of it was always in the air. He put me down regularly. My hearing loss (which I had since I was 4) was mild, but it made me shy, since speaking and hearing others is harder than it should otherwise be. I was quite introverted too, so his aggressiveness just made me even more passive in dealing with conflict.

    So I never trusted him and always walked on eggshells. We did a lot of fun things together in spite of his personality, but because I couldn't trust him, in many ways, he was not a father. I couldn't talk to him about anything that was going on in my life.

    Like when the babysitter's kid was beating me up every time I was sent to their house. My shy behavior made me an easy target especially given the constant verbal abuse my father was dishing out. I never really fought back, and I never bothered to tell him what was going on.

    Or when I befriended a pedophile in the old AOL chatrooms and he started threatening to burn down my house. He had my address because he would send me gifts. He even gave me access to his credit card to buy online pornography. I knew it was weird that a grown man would want to talk on the phone with a kid every day, but the gifts and free porn were too much of a thrill to turn down. I didn't see this as a real problem, and even if I had, I didn't trust either of my parents enough to tell them.

    In spite of my hearing disability and terrible parenting, I managed to make some friends, but only on a superficial level. We'd hang out on half days, and eat lunch together, but I was not connecting well with them. I wasn't interested in sports. My (untreated) hearing loss caused me to have poor social skills, but I did not realize this at the time. Like a lot of misfits, I was drawn to martial arts and studied jujitsu regularly. Many parents think enrolling their troubled kid in martial arts will fix their issues, and my parents believed the same.

    The problem was, fighting and martial arts became my identity, a way to compensate for poor social skills. It was all I was ever known for socially. One day I heard that some kid from a nearby town said something bad about my town, so I figured out how to get in touch with him and challenged him to a fight. I was 14 by now, and figured 5 years of jujitsu would give me a big advantage. I invited everyone I knew to come. There were at least 20 people watching this.

    I lost terribly. Jujitsu is great for grappling, but it was useless against the punches he threw. He also wrapped his hand around a roll of quarters, so his punches did serious damage to my teeth. I lost one tooth, but ended up having to replace two other teeth with implants as well as get a few crowns.

    The cost of the dental work to repair all of this damage fell on me in my 20's. It was about $20,000 or so - financed of course - and contributed greatly to my having to file bankruptcy when I was 30. My parents have never asked about how this damage was fixed, or the cost.

    I entered high school soon after this fight, only now I had barely any friends. As you probably remember, high school is much more interactive than junior high, with a lot more group discussions. So the effect of my hearing loss was greater, making me even more isolated than I was before. There was very little said about this problem by my family or my teachers. My guidance counselor never said a word about it, such as how it might impact me in the workplace or what careers would be appropriate.

    Right at the start an older girl - one year ahead - befriended me and we went to a dance. A guy warned me that she was known to "lie a lot" and to be careful. Having never had any female attention before, and zero input on girls from either of my parents, I ignored him.

    We made out heavily at the dance. For a 15 year old with barely any friends, and no experience with girls, this was overwhelming - in a good way. I had never felt so good with a girl before. No girl had ever seen me in a sexual light, probably because many knew I was handicapped from seeing the FM system I was forced to wear when I was younger (a large hearing-aid like device many hearing impaired children wear in school).

    But the following week, she suddenly wanted nothing to do with me. She wouldn't say why, or what I had done, or what was wrong. She refused to speak with me. I tried to get her to talk to me a couple of times - in a concerning manner, not an angry one - but to no avail.

    Soon after, one of the few guys I considered a friend told me that she said I was stalking her. His body language told me that he believed her over me, and it was clear he wanted nothing to do with me. He never talked to me ever again.

    Having been bullied as a young kid and recently beaten to a pulp in front of my friends, I was about as passive as you could get. So I didn't say anything to anybody. She never made it an official complaint, but it was well known how much she "hated" me the people I talked with had no idea why.

    But, she would still talk to me on AOL Instant Messenger throughout high school, always starting a conversation as if she wanted to be friends but ending it with insults (and always shunning me in person). I now had zero friends, and having no understanding of why she treated me so badly, I continued to talk to her, hoping I would eventually figure out what I had done wrong. Of course, nothing ever came of this except more frustration and self-hatred for why this was happening.

    Our online conversations ended when my parents took away the internet after the pedophile I mentioned above called the house at 3am demanding to know why I had stolen his credit card. My mother and stepfather made me ship back all the gifts he had sent, and not much more was ever said about it. The police were never involved. I think they were afraid of him pressing charges for the unauthorized credit card use, but they never asked the bigger question of why an older guy knew me in the first place.

    Being so alienated from my peers - girls especially - I started experimenting sexually (even though I am not attracted to men). My high school was big on the GLBT movement, and several teachers were openly gay or feminist. One was a health teacher who would go on feminist rants in her health classes. We never spoke directly, but for some reason her lectures had a big impact on me (probably because I was so starved for any information about sex and relationships - my parents never discussed sex or relationships). The lectures made me even more passive, and made me blame myself more for all of my failures.

    There was this one transgendered dude I fooled around with. He could pass for a chick, and was very popular in my school. After fooling around with him, as well as another transgendered guy in the city (I lived in a small town), I announced to my family that I was bisexual. I was pretty open about it at school too, joining the "GLBT Alliance" club or whatever the fuck it was called.

    In spite of the feminist atmosphere in school and its shallow advocacy for GLBT students, this only made me even more of an outcast. And since my experimentation was an expression of frustration and loneliness and not an attraction to men, I felt alienated from the handful of gay and lesbian friends I made as well. When my parents tried to press statutory rape charges on the adult transgendered guy I was with from the city, privately, my father called me a prostitute. I was 16 by now, and we started seeing less of each other as I started to stand up for myself and refuse to spend time with him.

    I ran away from home shortly after all of this, taking the Greyhound all the way to Los Angeles (I grew up on the east coast). I returned within a couple of weeks, because as bad as life was at home, it wasn't worth risking death as a homeless teenager. But of course it only made my school life worse. I thought running away from home would finally get my teachers and parents to realize how bad things had gotten, but not much was said to me. One of the lesbian teachers I considered a friend and mentor ( :roll: ) made some flippant comment and that was it.

    My grades were always good in spite of everything I describe above but soon after returning to school I quit doing schoolwork for the remaining year and dropped out a few days after turning 18.

    I was not aware at the time of how unfair the whole situation was, or how devastating hearing loss would be to a teenager's development, or how damaging an abusive and absent father figure could be. I always felt lost, and never understood why so many people seemed to hate me. I had stacks of self-help books in my bedroom and would read them compulsively in my spare time.

    My parents had me seeing a male psychologist but since I blamed myself for my problems, it never really occurred to me to talk about them with him. So most what I was experiencing was not discussed. His liberal leanings gave him a touchy feely approach to therapy, where we discussed my feelings often but he gave me no advice about how to solve any of my problems. So my passivity, my low self esteem, my lack of social skills, and lack of any professional direction continued.

    Although my parents failed me in many ways, they always insisted I "go to college" but never provided specific guidance as far as career planning or the financing of college (a very important issue given my hearing disability). I hated my parents around this time, and with some cash I saved from my part time job, I drifted aimlessly from one venture to another. I got a tax preparation certificate, a real estate salesman license, and took a couple random courses at the local community college. Then I ran away again to Las Vegas where I lived on my own for about 6 months. I knew they were willing to pay for me to go school though, so eventually I went back and took full advantage of them.

    By now I was painfully aware of how hearing loss was limiting me and was the cause of so many of my social problems growing up. Up until then, I didn't think it was a big deal because it was never discussed by anyone at school or at home.

    I had always been interested in psychology, and I was never afraid to face painful information about myself. I learned early on my from my psychology reading that denying reality is bad. So knowing that my hearing loss was a real problem now, I took a strong interest in learning everything about it. I was still very liberal at the time, so it seemed like a good idea to go to a liberal arts college. This one specifically advertises itself as a place designed for the deaf and hard-of-hearing. I started there when I was 21. I thought I wanted to become a psychologist for others who were hearing impaired like me. :lol:

    I quickly discovered that the college was in fact a place for deaf people, not people with mild hearing losses like myself. I learned enough sign language to get by but was largely alienated from my peers. A handful of girls expressed interest in me but I had no idea how to interact with them. I managed to hook up a couple of times, but none of the hook ups lead to a relationship. I was still quite traumatized from my high school experiences and felt tremendous shame around my attraction to women. I was so clueless, that I would regularly give massages to a female friend who had a boyfriend and go back to my dorm with blue balls thinking I would one day get somewhere with her.

    Most of the students had the English skills of a 2nd grader because being deaf from birth generally prevents one from truly mastering English. This is rarely discussed, so it comes as a surprise to most. Most hard-of-hearing students end up transferring to other schools.

    I was no exception to this, and made plans to transfer within my first year. But around half way through the year, I met a girl five years older than me and took a chance on asking her out. We developed a relationship and she treated me very well. She was like me in a lot of ways - more mature than the other students, and she wasn't deaf like the others were. She was more hearing impaired than me, but she spoke without a deaf accent and could hear well enough to carry on verbal conversation.

    For the first time in my life, I was having normal sex with someone I cared about, was attracted to, and who "got" me. I was still sharing my feelings, my insecurities, and my deepest secrets though (the manosphere was barely getting started at this time). But this didn't seem to bother her. It seemed to bring us closer, since she had a pretty terrible upbringing as well. I thought I was doing well. I wasn't like other guys, I told myself. Don't girls really want a sensitive guy who will do anything for her?

    She was also from Canada, so by marrying me she could get a U.S. citizenship if I submitted the papers. I would also become independent from my parents and receive significantly higher financial aid.

    So we got married after six months of dating. My parents were pissed but I did not care. I knew getting married at 21 to someone much older than me was odd but by then I was used to being an outcast, had no male friends, and never felt like I would be valuable to any woman, so what did I have to lose?

    Life was great for the first year, even though I hated everything about the college. But the constant sex, and her friendship, healed a lot of the damage I experienced growing up.

    But by the end of the first year, she started to become more critical of my lack of direction while I had become disillusioned with psychology and deaf people in general. By the end of the second year, I had decided to forget about becoming a therapist and focus on computers instead - and at a different school. I got into an IT program in another state and started taking monthly trips to visit her.

    I also discovered that she had a nasty temper that would come on whenever she had her period. For all of the shit I saw growing up, I never experienced women who were potentially violent or damaged property when they were angry. So I had no idea how to handle her smashing things whenever she got all wound up. Although I filed immigration papers for her to get a US citizenship, it was incredibly stressful and we fought about it constantly. My mother supported her citizenship petition on paper, but in person could not stand her which only added to our troubles. My mother thought it was a terrible idea to marry her, but never really told me why.

    A lot of our fighting stemmed from my passive behavior. When we started dating, maybe my sensitive and passive nature was quirky or a nice change from her past abusive boyfriends, but after a couple years of living with me, she started losing respect for me entirely. I could barely drive, and never stood up for her, so you couldn't really blame her. She also loved being slapped and wanted to be physically dominated in bed. Being a proud "nice guy," I couldn't be that kind of person even if I tried.

    By year 4, graduation was approaching for her (not me - I changed my major so many times that I wouldn't graduate until I was 26) and her US citizenship was in sight. Our relationship had only gotten worse with time. I finally told her that I really did not want kids, but she wanted them. I also no longer liked or respected her as a person. She seemed dumb now - book smart, but not street smart. She put on a lot of weight. The sex got old. We both hated each other by then, and she filed for a divorce that year. I was greatly relieved. She's a lot more deaf than I am, so I felt sorry for her, and I was still very much a Nice Guy so it took quite awhile for me to admit that a divorce would be best for both of us.

    By now, I knew something was wrong with the way I had been raised. That this nice guy, feminist, sensitive persona was shit and getting me nowhere. I had been seeing a female (!) therapist while I was at my new school and told her my deepest secret about being accused of stalking in high school even though I didn't do anything other than try to see why (just a couple of times) this girl suddenly hated me. I also told her I had a crush on a girl I worked with, and felt terribly guilty. Not because I was married, but just...because. Her reaction was one of compassion and humor, and even though it was just one therapy session, it marked a huge shift in how I saw myself. There was nothing wrong with wanting to fuck girls. I had been bullied in high school. There was NOTHING to feel guilty about. I also discovered Tom Leykis at around this time.

    Although I no longer wanted to be a psychologist, I still read a lot outside of my college courses. The biggest problem with being married so young is that it made it impossible to relate to my peers in my classes. So just like high school, I went through college largely isolated from my peers and so I would read often. While I was still married, I came across The Rantings of a Single Male. Shortly after that, I came across No More Mr Nice Guy and joined the book's online forum. I discovered the Happy Bachelors forum on one of the forum's threads.

    I found the MGTOW philosophy to be more in line with my values and goals than the PUA community, so I found myself going to Happy Bachelors and a lot more often than No More Mr Nice Guy. Even though I got married, I doubted the value of marriage even when I was younger. I always knew I didn't want kids (and got a vasectomy a few years ago). I have always disliked being a member of a group. I'm always curious about the things other people are afraid of or avoid. So in many ways, I was "MGTOW" before I ever heard of the label.

    I barely graduated college, but I had enough programming experience to get a job with a software development company. I quit after a year - with nothing lined up - and barely survived for the next 2 years before I got another programming job which I've had now for the last 4 years.

    I've had to learn a lot of simple things the hard way.

    Life is finally stable now, but I still deal with a lot of the effects of what I grew up with. I'm estranged from my parents, nearly all of my friends are online, and it's only recently that all of the dental damage from that fight I had was 14 has been fixed. I can't relate to normal people.

    Unlike when I was growing up, the hearing aids of today allow me to hear fairly close to normal, and I can finally afford them (They are 7k a pair USD, and insurance does not cover them). There are now 13 biotech start ups working on biological treatments for hearing loss. Most of these companies didn't exist a few years ago. There is one particular treatment on its second clinical trial currently, after having a really successful first clinical trial that is likely to cure my hearing loss. So I'm very optimistic about the future.

    I am 34 years old. What success I have had, I owe in large part to the manosphere, and of course some hard work combined with dumb luck. The manosphere is the father I never had. That I haven't killed myself is largely due to the ideas I got from the manosphere.

    These days I spend most of my time working so that I can retire early. I'm getting burnt out on the whole programming thing so I'm strongly considering a career in truck driving. I don't bother with relationships anymore given my disability and short stature (5'7), p4p only. I love the simplicity, the efficiency, and the variety of p4p. I recently took my first trip abroad to Costa Rica but want to visit Thailand, the Philippines, and quite a few other places. Of course being single allows me to do all of those things relatively easily. I'm currently learning Spanish and plan to start surfing soon as well. Life is pretty good...all things considered.

    If you read all the way to the end of this...thank you!

    Comments, criticism, or advice are welcome.
    Last edited by WakingUp; February 21, 2020 at 10:27 PM.

  2. #2
    Administrator Unboxxed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014

    Re: WakingUp - 10 years of MGTOW - An overdue intro

    Hi WakingUp,

    For the benefit of those who are reading this, you and I have been PMing on your site, formerly known as MGTOW HQ, where you are Admin. We were talking about how I might assist those HQ folks who arrived here in search of your new URL or for password reset. You are going to post your reply on our site but first you said you needed to do the Intro.

    Ha, I had told you your Intro would not land in the Moderation bucket but I forgot that a lengthy Intro does auto-moderate. I had to do a major update to Win10 today which took 3 hours so that's part of the delay to approve your Intro.

    Thank you for doing it.

    The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. - Mark Twain

    The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
    - Henry David Thoreau

    There are 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.

    Suitable for bookmarking: and and

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019

    Re: WakingUp - 10 years of MGTOW - An overdue intro

    This post is long and sad
    A very sad story to be sure, but I see reason to be optimistic for the future.

    In every one of your awful experiences you eventually seen the truth and managed somehow to turn this mess to your advantage. This is not the attitude of one of life's losers.

    Take heart in the fact that you don't really fit into a sick society - knowing what you know now would you give it all up just to become one of the sheep?

    Good luck to you sir, you deserve some.

    And welcome.
    "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    All we can do is keep ourselves from all those who don't deserve it. Dave Matthes

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