Thread: Actual Value (AV) - A key concept of MGTOW

Below I am posting a thread I made on the old forums about a concept called Actual Value (AV) and how it differs from Sexual Market Value (SMV). I believe this distinction may form an important cornerstone in the definition of MGTOW and how our worldview differs from both the mainstream and PUA.

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One thing I enjoy about debating non-MGTOWs is it forces me to think more deeply about concepts. As such, I've developed a distinction which I think answers a fair number of questions I've had since becoming MGTOW. For background, the debate went like this:

PUA:SMV (Sexual Market Value) is an important reality in life. Girls want the best guys.
Jagr:Who defines SMV of a male?
P:Well.....women do....
J: Do you trust modern women, being the way they are, with their arbitrary criteria to be able to accurately define SMV in a way that measures a man's true worth?
P:Well, women want to be with the best possible guy.
J:They do? Then why do Leroy and Cletus have 10 kids a piece. They've never had jobs and have a 6th grade education. Are they the best?


In the past, SMV and AV overlapped; due to new Female Mate Selection criteria (thanks to feminism), Not so Much Anymore

What struck me from this discussion is society's default use of SMV as a means of measuring men. Sexual Market Value. The background for all this is that feminism unchained the Hamster. The Hamster is a woman's outdated animal instincts that were chained by society for her benefit and society's.

Social sanctions were put in place to ensure women used rational mate selection criteria. In those days, when family was often involved in approving the mate, men with what I will define as Actual Value (AV) were the only ones approved.I will define this in greater detail.

But with feminism, women were told they needed no external guidance. So now the Hamster uses ridiculous mental shortcuts (created a LONG time ago when men co-existed with sabretooth tigers) that identify traits with no real value -- but they accept them unquestioningly and chase them to their own detriment (aggression, dominance, cockiness, height - and its symbols such as tattoos).

The problem with using SMV as often as we do is that 50+ years ago, there was high intersection between SMV and AV. In fact, you might say the two were largely overlapping. Marrying a dirtbag would ruin your family's name for good. You just didn't"elope". The term elope doesn't truly exist anymore because there is no societal/family approval process for the most part. In other words, there is no one to determine if a suitor has any AV.

The upshot is that SMV was a good predictor of AV in the past, because of these standards and checks. Today it is not. But we still mistakenly conflate the two. Today, by doing so, we put a man's worth in the hands of the delirious twat, infected by feminism. Someone who considers men who peacock with a feather boa as High Sexual MarketValue, as desirable, as "high status". Women drool over a"player" with a full-sleeve tattoo. Does that trait have any objective value or make a man a good partner?

Alpha or Beta?
The biggest confusion from these two very different standards are the use of the terms Alpha and Beta. Warren Buffet and Bill Gates have contributed a great deal to the economy and are CEOS and geniuses.When we instinctively give value based on SMV, we could consider these men Betas. Same with Nobel Prize Winners.Using the warped measuring stick of Alpha and Beta, these men don't measure up. The waiter with a coke habit however is an Alpha.

What concerns me is that, if Red Pill goes the wrong way, taking it could mean that all now live DOWN to the standards of the newly constituted SMV of the modern woman. "Winning" means choosing only fashionable interests/hobbies, taking vacations only to places that look good on Facebook, focusing time on wardrobe and peacocking rather than meaningful pursuits (or even things we enjoy).

When someone asks Alpha and Beta, it is fine if only in the context of SMV and women. A fair response would be-"Those are terms that refer to a man's standing with women. The real question is- what is the person's Actual Value".

Actual Value
I propose that rather than obsessing about "high status" males as defined by women, we concern ourselves with "high value" people. What is ActualValue? Traits that objectively make for a good person leading a meaningful life; actual ability, actual traits of good character.

Let's start with the most basic- character: a fundamentally decent human being. Honest. Trustworthy. Strong. Resilient. Resourceful. These are traits of someone who is a good friend, a good worker, a good person all around to know. Then there are abilities- someone whois intelligent, has practical skills, a sense of humor.

Finally,there are what he does- activities, interests, his job. A guy could be tall, loud, and aggressively boss other people around and have high SMV- but he could be a total fuck-up at life as well. The difference could be as basic as a guy who can Talk a good Game versus a guy who actually Lives a Good Life.

SMV and AV are becoming Inversely Proportional
The interesting thing is that SMV is becoming inversely proportional to AV. A guy like Kevin Federline is preferred to a guy with ActualValue. In my view, if someone is a "player", given women's modern selection criteria, more likely the guy is a dirtbag.

Now there are cases where men can have high SMV and AV, but that seems to be increasingly rare, especially because a woman's selection criteria prevents it. If you have a full-sleeve tattoo, you're not headed for the corner office.If you have a drug problem or criminal past, McDonald's may not even hire you.

If you spent nights chasing tail, those are nights you can never have back to pursue a new business. In fact, not only are you less likely to be successful, you are less likely to be an interesting person. I've noticed that guys with high SMV just so happen to be doing things that they can boast about to women. Women love DJs. Most DJs just play music (sorry to all those who may DJ out there). But to women, it's the most special thing you can do. Now, lots of alphas and PUA wanna-be alphas DJ in their spare time.

The problem is that as women rely on the Hamster more and more,you become a product of the Hamster- if you want to be in their world. And because their criteria is so fucked up, it will shape your life in odd ways.

To this end, I think it would be useful to discuss men in terms of High Value and not 'status' terms (alpha, beta). The true question is- are we talking about a High Value person or a Low Value person?

Their success with women is besides the point. To me, one aim ofMGTOW is to get men to focus on Actual Value, not Sexual Market Value. That's what living your own life means.

Players, PUAs, etc. may think they are "living their life on their own terms" but they are not; by making courting the modern twat a key objective in their lives, they consciously and unconsciously choose a life that emphasizes beliefs, attitudes, and activities built around courting the Hamster.

A woman's assessment of a man's Sexual Market Value is based on a primitive assessment of his ability to assist in her SURVIVAL. I emphasized that because survival was a very different game 20,000years ago. The kind of guy today with a criminal record might well be the kind of guy who could help you survive 20K years ago.Today he will just give you a shiner, a pregnancy, and split.

ActualValue is independent of twats. However, if women were to use a form of AV to assess men, it would not look for BC-era Survival traits. It would look for a guy who would be the best possible partner. If women were to ingest a red pill, it would be to distinguish between SMV traits and AV traits.
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PUA:Talk a Good Game
MGTOW:Live a Good Life
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Let me give a quick example of what I mean by leading your life towardsAV versus SMV

AV: Develop your body evenly: biceps, triceps,forearms, chest, trapezius, deltoids, abs, lats, back, quads,hamstring, calves.

SMV: Develop only your biceps so you can flex and post a photo on FB; hope women will see it

With AV,your body is a machine; an asset. With it, you can lift heavy objects, never strain carrying bags, defend yourself and others, not get injured when you get hit accidentally, push a broken-down car off the road, be in great health, etc. With SMV, you can do none of this.Living your life for SMV shortchanges yourself in so many ways.AV+p4p to me means getting everything without abridging your life's work and activity.

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A few additional thoughts on AV:

Dissonance amongst Blue Pillers at Lower Intersection between AV and SMV....ie:"Why isn't a guy like you married?"

Because society keeps its traditions long after their usefulness has faded(ie: schools taking the summer off so the kids can help with the family farm), we have people using SMV as a false mental shortcut to a man's actual value.This is the dissonance a person gets when they meet you, size you up and go "You're not married?" or "You're single?".What they're observing is that you are a quality guy, you've got a good life - (in other words, you have high Actual Value), so they think you must have high SMV, and therefore should be coupled up. In the past, when SMV and AV overlapped, the men remaining on the market had low AV, because the ones with high AV were all snapped up. But many men and women today, oblivious to the effect feminism has had on mate selection criteria, haven't gotten the memo (and to be fair,many of us who were blue pill at one point fell into this camp as well). The truth today is that because SMV and AV are often inversely proportional, not only do women scrape the bottom of the barrel first; men with high AV are amongst the primary types who are avoiding the twat. They have the intellect to know that they are appreciating assets and twats are depreciating assets, that the State firmly backs the female in a divorce, and that twat behavior has changed so dramatically in 30 years, that no solid guy could be benefitted in any way by by being connected to a self-centered, overweight ballast.A woman has morphed from a complementary companion to an unnecessary burden in record time.But as it happens, only men with the ability to discern these dynamics, unsurprisingly are men with high AV and intelligence, are stepping out of the way of the incoming locomotive. Otherwise,societal pressure to stay put and take what's coming is massive.

BehindEvery Great Man....
It was thought that you couldn't go anywhere without a woman. The expression was, "Behind every great man is a great woman".This thought was echoed by great men, by authors who studied great men like Napoleon Hill, and is even echoedtoday on blue pill sites.Sites like AskMen are living in the past. When women understood their role was to love and complement their man, they did have value. When that got replaced by "I want it all" and "I'm special even though I have no practical skills", by someone who no longer falls in love with a man for who he is but for his momentary advantage to her (the transactional mindset towards relationships),this is no longer the case. Which brings me another point. It's notjust that the modern woman's SMV has fallen because she has become fat, wears ridiculous amounts of makeup and perfume, doesn't bother to dress well. Her AV has also fallen. If we look at her Character,Abilities, and Activity, we see marked declines. Her Character has become selfish and entitled. As far as Abilities, she has neither the will or ability to cook, put the family first, or make pleasant conversation. As far as Activity, perhaps her job prospects have improved a bit over they years (which matters not at all to men); but her interests have gone from wholesome activities to drinking/clubbing (which have accelerated her hitting the wall), and away from reading and spending time with family to spending all available time on Facebook and TV- immersed in a false world and incapable of providing any value in the real one.

As always, there will continue to be great men. They will achieve greatness in spite of their women, not because of them. In fact,their success is likely because they managed to 'quarantine' their woman, preventing her pettiness and self-confident stupidity from altering his path in life. I suspect we will see, in the coming generations, that Behind Every Great Men is a powerful set of values,which he never deviated from. Not a hypergamous **** who complicates his life with needless quarrels, petty power struggles, and an endless list of demands.

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Snapshot of Someone with high AV and someone with high SMV
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High SMV

* Tall (confers no real advantage in practical terms)
*Aggressive (In 20K BC, aggressiveness was a must; in the 20K AD, it is more of a liability; instead, assertiveness or even an even-temperament is the more common disposition of high-achievers and people you want to be around)
*Behaviorally opportunistic: dark triad, sociopathic (whereas these traits are more often held by CEOs, they are also more often held by prison inmates and low-achievers; they are more often had by abusers of women, cheaters, people who betray their friends, family,and anyone);btw, CH has a great post on how sociopathy is on the rise in the US, perhaps from warped mate selection criteria
* Glib, quick comebacks, says things confidently whether they are true or not, or demeaning or not.
* Visible, neck tattoo. Deep voice. Wears a leather jacket. Looks angry.

As you examine these traits, it should be relatively clear that these aspects don't translate to a guy who necessarily will do well professionally or be a quality, compatible, reliable mate. That is because these are traits that either directly or indirectly served some purpose a long time ago.It's possible that these SMV traits were high AV traits pre-civilization. Today, they set of primitive triggers in women which they follow at their own expense. Chasing a man like this will set off 'gina tingles but not lead to a happy life as millions of women who are time-bombing at 30 are finding out.

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High AV
(these are simply examples, not exhaustive or to be taken fully literally)
(AV is always twat-independent; it doesn't matter what women think of someone like this, even though someone like this maybe the best possible partner for them. High AV is about being a solid human being; someone who has the makeup to be a resource to anyone he comes into contact with and someone with the skillset to make the most out of life.)

*FundamentalCharacter
-Actually means what he says
-Respects himself; respects others
-Has future orientation. Actually saves money.
-Good Judgment.Generally right about things and decisions he makes.
-Any of the following: Benevolent, Calm, Cheerful, Dignified, Disciplined,Dynamic, Enthusiastic, Focused, Genuine, Honorable, Friendly,Fun-loving, Kind, Principled, Purposeful, Secure, Warm,Humble.

*Traits/Abilities
-Above-average Intelligence
- A sense of quality and taste in things that matter, a sense of humor, depth
- Any of the following: Active, Adaptable, Adventurous, Appreciative, Athletic,Clever, Confident, Conscientious, Creative, Daring, Decisive,Dedicated, Deep, Freethinking, Hardworking, Imaginative, Incisive,Organized, Original, Wise.

*Activity(examples)
-Actual knowledge and skill that is applied whether towards interests,hobbies, work. Has passions and pursues them.

When you examine high AV, you realize that the skillset one needs to be effective in the world today is very different than the SMV list of pre-civilization. A final note: there are cases where people have both high SMV and AV; but as you can see with SMV, much of its composition is LMS (looks, money, status)- and for all of them but especially #1 and 3, most of those traits you are either born with or not. There is also some overlap of traits, where being tall, for example, can help occasionally when it comes to leadership (whether that's fair or not).

Thanks Jagr, good stuff here. Required reading, will come back and re read later when I have more time. Back to work !

Hey Jagr, I'm gonna call weirdness on the #3 post. There's a problem in your comparison that might not receive well because of the drastically different qualities being compared. I honestly thought you were going to go into superficial and physical comparisons of a high AV man, which could actually be handy to bring up.

The other problem is the front-loaded colorization on the SMV/AV example. Just doesn't jive right and sends the wrong message. More exciting vs more not? Does the color convey hostility while the mute palette comes across as 'cool'?

Great stuff, loved it. Very critical but constructive and useful. Really glad I joined GYOW now.

Originally Posted by College MGTOW

Hey Jagr, I'm gonna call weirdness on the #3 post. There's a problem in your comparison that might not receive well because of the drastically different qualities being compared. I honestly thought you were going to go into superficial and physical comparisons of a high AV man, which could actually be handy to bring up.

The other problem is the front-loaded colorization on the SMV/AV example. Just doesn't jive right and sends the wrong message. More exciting vs more not? Does the color convey hostility while the mute palette comes across as 'cool'?

Please say it again; this time in English - lol. Seriously, I'd like to better understand the critique.

Originally Posted by jagrmeister

Please say it again; this time in English - lol. Seriously, I'd like to better understand the critique.

Eee, I thought I did. The High SMV examples include more physical aesthetics - Tall, aggressive [I took this as a physical trait since it can usually be seen as a facial feature and posture], tattooed jacketed maniac - than the High AV does. Does this speak to the fact high AV has nothing to do with the physical manifestation of anything? Does high SMV depend wholly on the physical manifestations they portray? It leaves open an avenue for those with malevolent intentions to call it a strawman attack, since two different sets of qualities are being compared. The easiest way to alleviate that is simply balancing it out: What other psychological tendencies do High SMV individuals tend to put forth? What about the physical features of a High AV man?

The coloring gave me cause for concern for exploitation. The red seems fiery, and is a color associated to passion and thrust. The text exemplifying High AV men is completely mute in comparison. Sure, the color was for your notes on the matter, but I don't want it being taken the wrong way by idiots. Plus, fuck that, red is OUR color! OUR passion and thrust! Because it'll be the types like the MGTOW among us that will take us forward past this cultural hegemony.

What we are seeing in humans has happened to a number of other species. Things reach a stage where reproductive success is more dependent on intra-species competition than successfully dealing with the environment. When this happens, you start to see ridiculous things like peacock feathers, or antlers.

The interesting thing is that the things that become important to mating, like so many bad ideas, get chosen randomly and then become vital because they are ingrained in the culture. It's the sexy son effect. Let's say that, for some weird reason, having a long left earlobe became attractive in a male. Women would mate with long-left-earlobed men not because it's attractive in itself, but because those men have a better chance of carrying her genes on because all the other women go for the lobe. And so the earlobe becomes a thing.

The only thing that caps a lid on this is the external environment becoming harsh. War, disease, and famine brush away this kind of silliness. Like the tusks of the african elephant, external factors will get rid of peacocking. The AV-unfit males die, and also the women attracted to AV-unfit males and the children of AV-unfit males die, or fail to breed. The trait of 'attracted to AV-unfitness' gets bred out.

But in the current state of affluence, we are going to have to live with useless, fashionable bad-boys being attractive.

This is some great stuff. Love the post and I completely agree.

One thing I would like to add is the way women DICTATE to us what a ALPHA MALE is. A woman would say

I like a guy who doesn't spend time on video games.

And then she will say : ''I like a guy who does what he wants in life and is not afraid to show who he truly is''

It seems women on a conscious level do not actually know what a man should be like they only feel it on a subconscious level. In my opinion though the entire 'alpha male' thing is a complete myth. In the passed I have not given a shit what the girl thinks and yet somehow failed her shit test. Which by PUA theory should not be happening. I know this because the conversation dropped as i was naturally drinking my beer and not actually caring what was happening. It seems these 'shit tests' are just purely a social test and nothing more or shes just seeing if I have a sense of humour or not.

I believe it just comes down to social skills. If you have a good set of social skills you are considered to have SMV. A good set of social skills implies pre-selection of women because you would not have gained those skills if it was not for being around women and knowing how to communicate with them. One cannot become an alpha by inner game alone. It is

CONFIDENCE + SOCIAL SKILLS = ATTRACTIVE

However in the past there have been times where I ran solid game yet did not attract the girl. Simply she did not like the way I looked. This also goes against the pua theory in that it is only when she has proven to herself that i am beta will she know that i am beta.

Any man who is not an SJW, metrosexual, hipster and transsexual has both high AV and SMV.

There are no effeminate retards at the top and I believe that even the people in this forum are a bunch of high testosterone badasses compared to the SJW soy latte drinking retards.

That is because testosterone has been declining since the 2000s due to endocrine disruptors polluting the environment, causing younger men that grew up in the 21st century to be feminized and join this stupid movement.

I have a thread on this subject: https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgto...tion-of-13716/

I also have a post about the origin of endocrine disruptors: https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgto...23/#post168723

Here are introductions to what an SJW is:

https://www.rooshv.com/what-is-a-soc...ce-warrior-sjw
https://www.rooshv.com/real-social-d...st-the-sjw-mob
https://www.rooshv.com/sjws-bomb-fre...their-feelings

Originally Posted by N567

There are no effeminate fags at the top and I believe that even the people in this forum are a bunch of high testosterone badasses compared to the SJW soy latte drinking fags.

Be mindful, please, that gay men can be MGTOW and in fact we have a few gay men as bona-fide members on this site who can read your comments.

Thank you.


P.S. And while I have your attention, please read this:

Memo to Members: political language/

Originally Posted by Unboxxed

Be mindful, please, that gay men can be MGTOW and in fact we have a few gay men as bona-fide members on this site who can read your comments.

Thank you.


P.S. And while I have your attention, please read this:

Memo to Members: political language/

I removed the word fag from my post and replaced it with retard, though I am not using fag to refer to homosexuals, I am using the term to refer to dumb, emotional, hormonally imbalanced SJWs.

The SJWs are very easily triggered individuals who would probably get offended by the sexual acts performed by homosexuals.

Though, I must emphasize that the older generation of liberals are not like this, just the SJWs that grew up in the 2000s when the movement started.

I would also like to add that SJWs get offended by anything so if they suddenly decide that being gay is offensive then those people might become the next target of persecution.

The SJWs believe that anything that hurts their feelings must be censored, even if it is politically or religiously neutral.

I have a thread on this subject: https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgto...eplaced-13370/


The SJWs have already become outraged over a gay man's letter that bashed yoga pants, which is the point I am driving at when I say that the SJWs get offended by anybody, even their own fellow leftists:

https://www.returnofkings.com/100037...ear-yoga-pants
https://www.eastbayri.com/stories/le...ga-pants,27761
https://www.yahoo.com/now/2016-10-24...-21590637.html


Note that the man was not banned from a forum or blocked from social media accounts, the SJWs marched on his home address and protested loudly on his lawn, demanding that he retract the letter he sent to an e-news website, which is illegal because it is a public nuisance and trespassing on private property.

He even received threatening calls and explicit death threats which is illegal because it is unjust vexxation to continuously bother him and it is grievous coercion to threaten another person with physical harm to himself, other people close to him, and his property in order to force him to give in to their demands of censorship.

Originally Posted by N567

I removed the word fag from my post and replaced it with retard, though I am not using fag to refer to homosexuals, I am using the term to refer to dumb, emotional, hormonally imbalanced SJWs.

Then say dumb, emotional, hormonally imbalanced SJWs. Gay people and others do not know your secret definitions for these pejoratives. We are not mind readers.

I think it is fair to remind you that you and I have already gone round and round on the word games you play, in your Intro and as later typified in this link:

https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgto...52/#post157752

and we mods had decided to perma-ban you, although the mod who said he would do so inexplicably failed to do so. And that's why you're still here.

In your precarious situation with me, it would behoove you to avoid the use of any unnecessary pejoratives, including retard, and if you are lapsing back into your old habit of preaching with excessive links, or any other of your old ways, I will unceremoniously ban you without further notice to you.