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  1. #1
    Moderator Chairborne's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    [EDIT: I've decided not to pursue this, based in part on the advice of Mr Anonymous, hamstablasta, Octavian and Bob. But I'll leave this up so the discussion shows context, and a bit of corporate memory is retained.]

    Hey all, I was thinking about active measures to draw men's attention to MGTOW. Not recruiting per se, but "recruiting" in the sense that you show a dude having a parasite isn't mandatory for happiness.

    Anyways, I'm a devious bastard (in fact, my job depends on thinking up devious things, so my employer can pre-empt risks and threats). Anyways, I thought of two particularly subversive ways to draw men's attention to MGTOW, and I would like your input on the ethical implications of each.

    The first is questionable, but within the realm of my morality at least. The second is really on the line of what might be ethical, I'd love to hear your insights. They follow:
    Last edited by Chairborne; March 10, 2014 at 10:36 PM.
    Who's Chairborne? Office worker & Army Reservist, into electronic music, drummer in a jam band, table-top RPGs, bicycling, X-country skiing, biathlon & marksmanship, TV-free for 15 years.

  2. #2
    Moderator Chairborne's Avatar
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    Recruiting Strategy 1: The False Flag Female

    Create one or two POF or other dating site profiles. One for a high SMV female, with a photo of a gorgeous woman slutting it up. Maybe another of a post-wall 38 year old mother of two kids. Either way, I would put things in the text of the profiles that SHOULD be red flags, such as...
    • Very little indication of her own character or interests, rather lists of criteria for men
    • "I want a man who's generous..."
    • "I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best."
    • "I like to be treated like a lady..."
    • "Don't message me if you're fat / bald / short..."
    • "OMG!!! I Just LUV My KITTIES!!! LLOL !! 1one!!"
    • Job: I don't define myself by my work, I do environmental-consciousness-raising art and write life-affirming poetry
    • I'm looking for a professional man who has his shit together

    With this stuff in the profile, I would simply respond to men soliciting first contact with a simple message.

    "Hey, thanks for your message. Unfortunately you haven't figured out I'm a gold-digging hag that would simply suck the life and money out of you and discard you when I'm done. Maybe you should re-consider what kinds of women you're hitting on, and look for some of the warning signs of manipulators, gold diggers and others who are trying to prey off of your loneliness. Or, you could evaluate whether trying to meet the stringent criteria of a morally decrepit human being like me, simply to access probably mediocre sex, just isn't worth it... Anyways, more and more men who have gotten tired of hags like me are starting to go their own way ("Men Going Their Own Way", or "MGTOW" - you can find out a lot about this phenomenon on google or youtube). Either way, you should do some more analysis and critical thinking about the quality of women who make themselves available, and just how unreasonable our expectations are. Cheers!"
    Last edited by Chairborne; March 9, 2014 at 5:18 AM.
    Who's Chairborne? Office worker & Army Reservist, into electronic music, drummer in a jam band, table-top RPGs, bicycling, X-country skiing, biathlon & marksmanship, TV-free for 15 years.

  3. #3
    Moderator Chairborne's Avatar
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    Recruiting Strategy 2: The Scarlet Snitch

    This one, I'm a little more ethically dubious about, and as I think about it, looks logistically difficult to execute, and is actually quite risky from a personal safety perspective... But like I said, I think up scenarios for a living, and this stuff just comes to me.

    Create a profile on Ashley Madison (the website for cheaters to hook up with each other). Hit on women, and generally engage them to try to impress them, and get them to meet up. This would be risky admittedly, so do it in public. Obviously, the MGTOW would have to be decietful to her, pretending to have a spouse. When you meet, keep your phone on you recording audio (or video if you have the option). Over the course of dinner or whatever, try to get sufficient biographic details so that you can identify the hubby. Look him up on linked in or whatever.

    Then send him the audio recording of the date, along with screenshots of the Ashley Madison profile, and the following email:

    Dear [Name], I have good news for you and bad news. The bad news is that your wife is actively trying to cheat on you. I have not touched her, but she is seeking men with whom to cheat on you. The good news is that you can now take control of the situation and prepare yourself. Immediately talk to a family lawyer - do not confront her with this information until you have done so. You have two obvious choices; work it out with her, or go your own way. But either way, you want to protect your assets, and ensure that your children are as safe as they can be. If you want to know why this is happening to you, google "Briffault's Law", and look up "The Red Pill". You have performed your duty to your wife, but she has taken you for a ride and discarded you. I offer you this information from a man who's seen the worst of women, and I offer it as solidarity for a fellow man.
    Who's Chairborne? Office worker & Army Reservist, into electronic music, drummer in a jam band, table-top RPGs, bicycling, X-country skiing, biathlon & marksmanship, TV-free for 15 years.

  4. #4

    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    Interesting social experiment/ plug routine but anything that requires too much investment of time, resources and too little return in terms of guys waking up is going to be a uphill battle. No doubt you would reach a fair bit of guys with that method but many of them would attempt to report you for wasting their time as it were.

    I was interested in just making stacks of flyers with a slick, positive message, and perhaps a site link or two for younger guys and posting them in the libraries and anywhere else their is a poster board that is well trafficked. Maybe see how long it takes to get torn down by some thunderthigh feminist, and hoping for the best in terms of getting some of these younger guys many of who stand little chance of getting real answers about the current state of affairs in their own daily world.

    Lets face it though poster boards may still be in use but most people rarely look at them anymore unless they happen to be bored and standing next to one. So hand delivering them during events on the down low might be a surefire way to penetrate large amounts of guys more efficiently but you really got to have a gift for gab for the inevitable questions and conversations it will start.

    Being someone who comes up with scenarios I expect you will figure out a killer avenue at some point that we can all embrace as an ideal way of spreading the knowledge.

  5. #5

    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    You weren't exaggerating when you said you were a devious bastard.

    Do let us hear about it if you put them into practice. Especially number 2.

  6. #6
    Senior Member mr.anonymous's Avatar
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    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    Well, As a Man Going Your Own Way, you certainly have the above options. I'm not going to say I haven't considered either or both of those options myself. I actually talked myself out of them.

    Both strategies involve luring the reader by deception. This is not the best philosophy to earn trust or good faith to your cause. (I know, I know, but I'm not discussing wimminz right now)

    The Ashley Madison thing, well I plain do not get the middle of other people's marriages, or relationships. If a guy has a slut on his hands, well he sealed his fate when he proclaimed "I Do"

    Also, It is imperative that what ever you do is on your own volition, and is not supported by this forum, its members, and especially its management. If you intend to promote an idea, promote it. But please do not include this forum in your own personal activities. At least in those scenarios. I am thinking liabilities, which could be problematic to say the least.

    What I have seen done is posting Craigslist ads about MGTOW. Something in the relationship section about "being tired of the drama, BS, etc." Then it said "Well I'm no longer having those problems, because I am a Man Going His Own Way." The dude did promote the forum he was on that way.

    I was impressed by that. I do not know how Jagrmeister would feel about promoting this forum by that means, you will have to ask him.

  7. #7
    Administrator jagrmeister's Avatar
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    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    I like it a lot.

    I'll caveat what I'll say by first sharing that my views don't necessarily coincide with everyone here. Everyone's risk threshold is different. But I'll say it: I want to win this culture war. To do that, we have to be bold. And creative. And these techniques are both.

    My attitude is: just do it. If it fails, you fail fast. You learn and adapt, or try something else.

    The other way I look at this is - serving up the Red Pill is perhaps the noblest charity you can conduct. I think of my own life and the years wasted doing sh*t I find embarrassing now looking back. And I haven't suffered half as much of some MGTOWs. Waking someone up through a dating site may be jarring to them at first, but save them years of pure anguish.

    On #2, just CYA. AshleyMadison may have fine print on misrepresentation on your profile; and I think on that site you may have to pay and thereby reveal yourself. There may be ways through PayPal or temp CreditCards like GreenDot to obscure some of that. Just mind the details on that one.

    To me, Action is life. So I'm all for it. Please share what you can here on how those go. And whatever the outcomes on these approaches, look forward to your taking a leadership role in the Action subforum.

    Some of you may be wondering -- who is this Jagrmeister guy? Have a look at some of my posts from MGTOW Forums--> Jagr Archive (collection of my articles)



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  8. #8
    Moderator Chairborne's Avatar
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    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.anonymous View Post
    Both strategies involve luring the reader by deception. This is not the best philosophy to earn trust or good faith to your cause. (I know, I know, but I'm not discussing wimminz right now)
    Good point - Again, that's why both are morally questionable... One much moreso than the other admittedly. It could backfire, but even in backfiring, would help open a guy's eyes to just how sketchy POF (and similar sites) can be...

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.anonymous View Post
    What I have seen done is posting Craigslist ads about MGTOW. Something in the relationship section about "being tired of the drama, BS, etc." Then it said "Well I'm no longer having those problems, because I am a Man Going His Own Way." The dude did promote the forum he was on that way.

    I was impressed by that. I do not know how Jagrmeister would feel about promoting this forum by that means, you will have to ask him.
    I wouldn't promote the forum, simply suggest guys do their own research and google "Men Going Their Own Way", "MGTOW", or something similar. They would find a lot more than this forum - they'd find the old forum, a ton of youtube videos, and other stuff. It's possible they'd find goingyourownway.com, but it's no guarantee.

    I like the Craigslist ad a lot. Sounds like a great idea!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jagrmeister View Post
    I like it a lot.

    I'll caveat what I'll say by first sharing that my views don't necessarily coincide with everyone here. Everyone's risk threshold is different. But I'll say it: I want to win this culture war. To do that, we have to be bold. And creative. And these techniques are both.

    My attitude is: just do it. If it fails, you fail fast. You learn and adapt, or try something else.

    The other way I look at this is - serving up the Red Pill is perhaps the noblest charity you can conduct. I think of my own life and the years wasted doing sh*t I find embarrassing now looking back. And I haven't suffered half as much of some MGTOWs. Waking someone up through a dating site may be jarring to them at first, but save them years of pure anguish.

    On #2, just CYA. AshleyMadison may have fine print on misrepresentation on your profile; and I think on that site you may have to pay and thereby reveal yourself. There may be ways through PayPal or temp CreditCards like GreenDot to obscure some of that. Just mind the details on that one.

    To me, Action is life. So I'm all for it. Please share what you can here on how those go. And whatever the outcomes on these approaches, look forward to your taking a leadership role in the Action subforum.
    Thanks for the advice Jagr. Looking at the Ashley Madison option, I'm really second-guessing that one. I hadn't thought of the credit card and identity issue to be honest. Plus, it would take lots of time - courtship, meeting, researching hubby... Honestly, I don't feel like putting forth that effort, especially when I consider it to be morally dubious. Even worse, I don't want to expose myself to a false accusation and a visit from law enforcement courtesy of the woman I meet. It's also possible that wifey could misrepresent her situation to hubby ("he seduced me! It's not my fault, I haven't got any agency!") and I end up with a vengeful hubby on my case.

    Furthermore, I really don't want to put forth the effort to charm some cheating hag. I mean, I can do it - I might have been a late bloomer, but at 40 with no kids, in shape, a solid job and a clever wit I know I'm able to attract post-wall females easily. But honestly, I'm here to GET AWAY FROM THEIR BS, not re-immerse myself in it for whatever purpose. It's not worth the risk, not worth the hassle, and not worth compromising myself.

    As for the dating website, it should be easy. I'll have to construct a profile of a genuine manipulative, gold-digging, ditzy, hag / princess, and then craft a stock response. But after that, it should be fairly easy to just go on once or twice a week, clear out the inbox and "copy-paste-send, paste-send, paste-send" the stock response. Yeah, the account will eventually get banned. But it's an expendible resource.
    Who's Chairborne? Office worker & Army Reservist, into electronic music, drummer in a jam band, table-top RPGs, bicycling, X-country skiing, biathlon & marksmanship, TV-free for 15 years.

  9. #9

    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    On the moral/ethical issue, I think that occupying the moral high-ground (by focusing upon simple truth, in our facts and ethics) is one of our greatest attributes... not just in terms of our being able to pat ourselves on our backs, but in terms of practical benefits too (recruitment etc).

    I think that there are two mostly-separate ethical systems that apply to two different situations: bedrock, existential survival; everything else. Our fight is mostly the latter situation/system, so we'll only concern ourselves with that. With that in mind, you get the 'do the ends justify the means?' problem.

    This is a moral judgement call that every Man must make for himself, based on his own ethical principles (eg the ['Do unto others...'] Golden Rule, living as if you were the example that everybody else in the world will follow, treating others as ends in themselves rather than as merely means to ends, Utilitarian 'ethics' vs Natural Rights ethics and on...), which ideally he should be able to explain clearly and calmly - these are the rock that a Man builds himself from, and a huge part of a Man's self-mastery and therefore deep self-confidence.

    I've found that if you keep this following statement of mine in mind, you won't go too far wrong:-

    Regardless of the ends, you are the means that you use.

  10. #10
    Senior Member bob's Avatar
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    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    All IMHO:

    The dating profile thing sounds like a good way to have blue-pillers's first experience of MGTOW being something that is deceptive and enraging. Not good, IMHO.

    The AM scenario is way too much work. And you are being part of the other guy's problem there. You would have to woo his wife even to get a meeting. Bad juju.

    Much better to put it out there where those who are ready can find it, and those who aren't will know that it exists.

  11. #11
    Moderator Chairborne's Avatar
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    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    Quote Originally Posted by bob View Post
    All IMHO:

    The dating profile thing sounds like a good way to have blue-pillers's first experience of MGTOW being something that is deceptive and enraging. Not good, IMHO.

    The AM scenario is way too much work. And you are being part of the other guy's problem there. You would have to woo his wife even to get a meeting. Bad juju.

    Much better to put it out there where those who are ready can find it, and those who aren't will know that it exists.
    Good points Bob. Yeah, it is deceptive... And I guess it could set a guy back from going his own way if he thought it was some snakey bullshit. I haven't done anything about it yet, I'm still in the evaluation / wait and see mode. I REALLY like the idea about the craigslist add though!

    ...What if I were to just create a profile like that, with the 'punchline' in the actual text? Not all guys read profiles, but those that do might see something worth noting. That way, it's up front and not decietful.
    Last edited by Chairborne; March 10, 2014 at 1:05 AM.
    Who's Chairborne? Office worker & Army Reservist, into electronic music, drummer in a jam band, table-top RPGs, bicycling, X-country skiing, biathlon & marksmanship, TV-free for 15 years.

  12. #12

    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    I don't care for either strategy. How open have *you* personally been to enlightenment when you've been tricked into a pitch? You want to drum up interest? Print up a few MGTOW road shields either on magnets or easily removed stickers (like post-its) and put in restrooms or bus stops, etc.

  13. #13

    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    Yeah, I don't go out drinking any more, but if I start again, I'll be getting some little flyers printed up with the actual stats, and gender break-down re rape and DV, with a link to where folk can find out more. The bastards were always spamming the pub tables and toilets with tax-payer funded 'men are evil, women are perfect angel-victims' flyers and posters where I used to drink - I always challenged that shit and put everyone right verbally, but prefer to keep my ghostly head down these days, and would rather the flyers did the talking instead.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Octavian's Avatar
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    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    This strategy is unlikely to work.

    People by nature dont believe something can happen unless it does, especially if said event goes against every bit of social programming up to that point. With most people nowadays being raised by either single mothers, divorced mothers, or emasculated excuses for two parent families where the Dad has less power then the Russian Parliament, men are making a cavalry charge into a line of Feminist machineguns -and we live in a time where that's considered socially normal.


    You're not taking on that level of psychological dependency without a very solid base of credibility. That's literally our ONLY advantage as aware men against women who will literally lie, cheat, and steal to con a man into her life. The only method which will have a lasting effect , IMO, is literally living our creed every day. Forget corny games on the Fish Market- when your friend is getting yelled at, beset by, and tasked from his master while you live free, it will get the message across loud and clear.

    With every free step you take, you are a shining example of a free man. Its like the missionary creed in Christian circles-forget pithy speeches and Bible quotes. You win converts by LIVING a good life, not talking about it. So it goes for MGTOW. All we can do is plant the seed of truth in the rotting garden of feminism, water it with some redpill experiences, and watch the seed grow . It won't work overnight, and it may not work at all. But trying to force people to accept a truth they're unable to process isn't the path, IMO.

  15. #15

    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    Nicely put indeed sir!

  16. #16
    Moderator Chairborne's Avatar
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    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    I'm convinced by the counter-arguments. And that's precisely why I put it up for discussion before rushing off and doing something without forethought... Thanks!
    Who's Chairborne? Office worker & Army Reservist, into electronic music, drummer in a jam band, table-top RPGs, bicycling, X-country skiing, biathlon & marksmanship, TV-free for 15 years.

  17. #17

    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    I like it. Or if there is the typical "MAN UP" or the "Where have all the good men gone" articles, FLOOD THE COMMENTS!!!

  18. #18

    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    I am not subversive about it at all, I have no issue informing guys even with women standing there of where I stand and why if the women don't like it well that is just to bad, oh and yes I have on more then a few occasions imparted this on women seems the not caring what people think goes a long way.
    True happiness is only found within, to seek it elsewhere will result in failure.

  19. #19
    Super Moderator William Noy's Avatar
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    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    As MGTOWS, whether or not it is our intent, we are subversive by our very existence because we don't do what we're "supposed to." Not that that has any bearing on what you should or shouldn't do... just as an aside.

    The first one (fake dating profile with MGTOW message) might leave a bad taste in their mouth. These guys just want to get laid, and in that context, you're interrupting that. It could backfire. That said, if I could offer some constructive criticism:

    The message explaining the ruse is too long. ESPECIALLY since you're interrupting their attempt to get laid. They aren't going to read all of it, and their eyes will glaze over, in my opinion. See if you can make it a lot shorter. If that fails, see if you can distill the meat of the message into about three lines, then follow up with more detail separated by a few spaces.

    NOW, I actually like the second one quite a bit, and I think it could be well-received by the man, because you're being helpful (once the shock of seeing his wife attempting to cheat has worn off). Sort of like a vigilante helping men.

    Just my opinion
    Last edited by William Noy; June 13, 2014 at 8:47 PM. Reason: more detail
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    Senior Member BrotherJ's Avatar
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    Re: Ethical implications of subversive MGTOW "recruiting" strategies

    The first idea is low-cost enough to be implemented and could easily be done over and over again to reach a large number of guys, though William Noy is right that the message would need to be shorter and "sweeter." The second idea, while useful, is more expensive and much slower.
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