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  1. #1
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Women, career and wall, in a hypothetical perfect society

    This thought came to my head several times in the past. But at that time I was not aware of the problems in society, not only for men, but in general, problems against family unit, etc. This is just theorycrafting. What in your opinion, a supposedly perfect society can allow women, who are genuinely interested in career, and are having a great run in early 20s, to continue with this while not jeopardizing her chances at family.

    Some things I clarify :

    - This is most important point. The solution should be such that it doesnt create problems for men or family. At any point it MUST NOT create a need to create MGTOW 2.0, directly or indirectly. I am referring to all sorts of problems which happen when women reach the wall, and then expect men to start family with them, and then one problem leads to another, then another, creating what we have today.


    - The woman is genuinely talented, and the career is actually useful to society, not gender studies or any bs. The fields can be STEM, law, medicine, etc. In this field, I do agree men perform better than women, both average and at the 'best of the best' level, but not ALL WOMEN are dumber/less-performing than ALL MEN. There will be some women which will be better than some men. So a genuine case can be made for those women

    - The proposed solution should be entirely meritocratic, no biases.

    - This is about continuing education, and not about working at actual job, which can be a different topic. That means ability to continue education is not same as working at a job. They have different sets of problems. Jobs can be dangerous or far away, which is less likely to happen with college education (though not totally impossible).


    A rationale on why do I think this is not trivial to solve : The fields I mentioned above are quite advanced nowadays. You cannot hope to become good in those fields by age of 20 or 25, unless you are a prodigy (and a bit lucky). There is a lot to learn in each of those fields. For women, there is a ticking clock when it comes to having a family in our "perfect" society, we arent really talking about if we can modify nature. So I think if a woman is not ready to go some kind of "monk" mode for her entire life, then that means she will be at crossroads at some point before the wall, where she will need to split her attention. And because of the complexity of these fields, this can delay her or set her back several years.

    So, anyone thinks any solution is even possible ? If yes, then what it is ?
    A clever fighter not only wins, but excels in winning with ease. His victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom, nor credit for courage. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.

    Sun Tzu in The Art of War
    MGTOW is about making no mistakes against gynocentrism.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Mr Wombat's Avatar
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    Re: Women, career and wall, in a hypothetical perfect society

    This is a bit garbled. The actual question in question seems to be asking about career in general, but then you qualify it and say we are only talking about education, by which you presumably mean vocational education.

    But I'll see if I can have a go at what I think you are asking.

    The major problem at the moment is women wasting the best years of their lives getting 'studies' degrees while riding the carousel. The underlying cause of that is the vast amounts of money able to be made in the student loan industry. There is a generational scam going on, a vast transfer of wealth from the young to the old.

    One solution would be to restore 21 as the age of majority. It is insane that 18-year-olds are permitted to saddle themselves with unpayable debt for the rest of their lives.

    Alternatively, permit bankruptcy to discharge student loan debt, as it does every other kind. It's unconscionable that this relief is granted to every other kind of debt except predatory loans foisted on the young and stupid. Yes, this means that a lender has to take a risk and evaluate who they are loaning the money to. Isn't that the way making money by ending out money is supposed to work? Let them decide which women are likely to go on with their careers.

    (Another would be to require that getting a baccalaureate actually be difficult for the average idiot. I suggest that these degrees have a math requirement. A requirement to pass Statistics and Probablility 101 would filter out the vast majority of feckless party girls. For 'letters' degrees, serious and genuine scholarly study of the humanities, restore the latin requirement. Oh, and get *rid* of sportsball.)

    The real problem is that you *can't* enable genuinely talented young women to proceed with vocational studies and a career in their 20s without screwing up their chances at having a family at a healthy age for it. Anyway, these genuinely talented young women who would take full advantage of med school are a chimera. There is a crisis in health care right at the moment caused by the fact that women, after taking a up one of a limited number of slots in med school for 8 years, drop out of their careers to have babies. This applies in every discipline, every line of study. Young women drop out of life to have babies, and the only time they don't is when they are forced to it.

    This is the problem with the "let the lenders sort it out" approach. If we required student loan vendors to evaluate students on the basis of their likelihood of paying, the real facts of the matter would mean that they would choose not to lend to young women, and everyone would cry "discrimination".

    The unfortunate truth is that society and civilisation does not need these talented young women to pursue their studies and careers. There are more than enough talented young men to keep the mills of science and commerce turning, and they actually will do it. Maybe under this system is sucks to be Madame Curie, but there really aren't that many of those.

    Is this unfair? Is this discriminatory? Well, if it's discriminatory to notice that different things are different, then ok it's discriminatory. Young men and young women are different in terms of the future arc of their lives, and it's nuts to try to deny it.

  3. #3
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Women, career and wall, in a hypothetical perfect society

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wombat View Post
    This is a bit garbled. The actual question in question seems to be asking about career in general, but then you qualify it and say we are only talking about education, by which you presumably mean vocational education.
    ...
    I meant everything in education before actual job. And, here I agree I failed to mention, but I am assuming that if a woman is talented she will want to give it all the time it needs. Not talking about bare minimums for jobs, but it can also mean going for research (PhD etc) or internships/training (which are a must in medicine in my country).

    Of course there are many jobs which require training and internships as a part of it, but I dont know how it works in other countries so I am deliberately keeping it somewhat open to interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wombat View Post
    ...
    The major problem at the moment is women wasting the best years of their lives getting 'studies' degrees while riding the carousel. The underlying cause of that is the vast amounts of money able to be made in the student loan industry. There is a generational scam going on, a vast transfer of wealth from the young to the old.

    One solution would be to restore 21 as the age of majority. It is insane that 18-year-olds are permitted to saddle themselves with unpayable debt for the rest of their lives.

    Alternatively, permit bankruptcy to discharge student loan debt, as it does every other kind. It's unconscionable that this relief is granted to every other kind of debt except predatory loans foisted on the young and stupid. Yes, this means that a lender has to take a risk and evaluate who they are loaning the money to. Isn't that the way making money by ending out money is supposed to work? Let them decide which women are likely to go on with their careers.

    (Another would be to require that getting a baccalaureate actually be difficult for the average idiot. I suggest that these degrees have a math requirement. A requirement to pass Statistics and Probablility 101 would filter out the vast majority of feckless party girls. For 'letters' degrees, serious and genuine scholarly study of the humanities, restore the latin requirement. Oh, and get *rid* of sportsball.)
    ...
    Yeah, I am assuming the woman in question is talented enough and is able to pass all such filtering exams, and is interested in pursuing studies instead of riding the carousel, drugs, partying or whatever. She is okay with and willing to stay away from those things. Also, again I admit I didnt see this coming, but monetary problems and concerns is not what I intended to focus on. You can assume she got money to pay for her studies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wombat View Post
    The real problem is that you *can't* enable genuinely talented young women to proceed with vocational studies and a career in their 20s without screwing up their chances at having a family at a healthy age for it. Anyway, these genuinely talented young women who would take full advantage of med school are a chimera. There is a crisis in health care right at the moment caused by the fact that women, after taking a up one of a limited number of slots in med school for 8 years, drop out of their careers to have babies. This applies in every discipline, every line of study. Young women drop out of life to have babies, and the only time they don't is when they are forced to it.

    This is the problem with the "let the lenders sort it out" approach. If we required student loan vendors to evaluate students on the basis of their likelihood of paying, the real facts of the matter would mean that they would choose not to lend to young women, and everyone would cry "discrimination".

    The unfortunate truth is that society and civilisation does not need these talented young women to pursue their studies and careers. There are more than enough talented young men to keep the mills of science and commerce turning, and they actually will do it. Maybe under this system is sucks to be Madame Curie, but there really aren't that many of those.

    Is this unfair? Is this discriminatory? Well, if it's discriminatory to notice that different things are different, then ok it's discriminatory. Young men and young women are different in terms of the future arc of their lives, and it's nuts to try to deny it.
    Agreed, and thats exactly what I concluded too. They have a very tight window, and any career which requires several years of studies and/or research/training is going to get in the way.

    Yes, society doesnt need those madam curies, and there arent many of them, but, this line of thought is a very very diluted and mild version of : "this is very rare" in false accusations. Of course, in case of false accusations, the life of a man can be destroyed, which is why i stressed on that being a very mild version. This argument means, its okay for this little "oppression" to exist.

    I agree they are different, I am never calling for any attempt to create artificial equality by just giving them any welfare. This is partly why I mentioned that it should only be a meritocratic system, no free lunch or "opportunities".

    Dont get me wrong though, I am VERY OKAY with what you said. If one side is going to be oppressed, then I'd prefer it be women, not men. But the thing about this conclusion is... that there WILL be SOME oppression always present in a society between men and women, no escape from that scenario. I think its just how we are created by nature.
    A clever fighter not only wins, but excels in winning with ease. His victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom, nor credit for courage. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.

    Sun Tzu in The Art of War
    MGTOW is about making no mistakes against gynocentrism.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Joetech's Avatar
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    Re: Women, career and wall, in a hypothetical perfect society

    I wrote a fiction novel once based on a "what would have happened if" scenario in a TV mini-series. But, for this piece of fiction I have no reference point. You're suggesting women might be capable of accountability? Now, that's a stretch.
    "Don't follow in my footsteps. I stepped in something."

  5. #5
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Women, career and wall, in a hypothetical perfect society

    Quote Originally Posted by Joetech View Post
    I wrote a fiction novel once based on a "what would have happened if" scenario in a TV mini-series. But, for this piece of fiction I have no reference point. You're suggesting women might be capable of accountability? Now, that's a stretch.
    No, I am myself a firm believer of AWALT, its just much safer than NAWALT/EWALT thing. But I am also being humble with the fact that I dont know ALL women on this planet, so I am giving them a benefit of doubt in a hypothesis.

    My point with this hypothesis was not to argue that women can or cant be able of accountability or any other trait. It was to argue that between men and women, one is going to be "oppressor" and other "oppressed". There is no third state possible where nobody is oppressor or oppressed.

    And I'd certainly prefer being the oppressor over being oppressed. Of course, thats assuming that the above conclusion is correct.
    A clever fighter not only wins, but excels in winning with ease. His victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom, nor credit for courage. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.

    Sun Tzu in The Art of War
    MGTOW is about making no mistakes against gynocentrism.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Boar's Avatar
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    Re: Women, career and wall, in a hypothetical perfect society

    This hypothetical perfect society for whimyn can never exist: whimyn are never happy with anything. It does not matter what the system gives her, she earns on her own merit, or whose coattails she rides to success while popping out kids and living in a life of luxury. She will never be happy or satisfied.

    Think I am exaggerating? Just ask Brad Pitt and Jeff Bezos.....

  7. #7
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Women, career and wall, in a hypothetical perfect society

    Quote Originally Posted by Boar View Post
    This hypothetical perfect society for whimyn can never exist: whimyn are never happy with anything. It does not matter what the system gives her, she earns on her own merit, or whose coattails she rides to success while popping out kids and living in a life of luxury. She will never be happy or satisfied.

    Think I am exaggerating? Just ask Brad Pitt and Jeff Bezos.....
    Exactly my thoughts. This is why I dont feel bad for women when bad things happen to them, like they suicide or whatever else. Its either them or us. Anyone hoping that someday all this can be fixed, or women will learn their lesson, is just chasing a mirage.

    And what about Brad Pitt... didnt know about him, did Mrs. Smith finally shot Mr. Smith.. gotta google..
    A clever fighter not only wins, but excels in winning with ease. His victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom, nor credit for courage. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.

    Sun Tzu in The Art of War
    MGTOW is about making no mistakes against gynocentrism.

  8. #8

    Re: Women, career and wall, in a hypothetical perfect society

    Aargh. I get where you're going with this. I know of one PhD Microbiologist who is very much a lady, never gave a fuck about having kids, and earned her stripes through and through... because student loans. I myself had to take remedial algebra twice during my first year of school, due to Asperger's. School turned out not to be the best idea for me, because deskjobs are murderous to folks with anxiety, but college was my only perceived way out of a shit-town.

    Humorously enough, the shit-town evolved quite a bit in 25 years, and is now a better place than the college town (which may be a MGTOW conversation in itself, lol.) I have another friend who has dyscalculia (a form of dyslexia) and simply could not EVER beat algebra in college... so the college kept her loans and flipped her off, naturally. She beat everything else, had doctors vouching for her, but the college was quite happy to tell her to fuck off.

    I wouldn't be upset if my loans were relieved, but that would be unfair to all the bastards who -did- pay them off. I do believe that college loans are absolutely a predatory debt-trap aimed at young people, and very much a cornerstone factor to the decline of America. The loan industry (credit cards, especially) enabled the CC like nothing else in history.
    And it's nothing but wide open prairie...

    There's something very fun about MGTOW. In an odd sense, like charting a new territory of the mind, or rediscovering a long lost civilization. Occult knowledge, secret societies, cannibal natives (THOTS), it's all very exciting... lololol.

    Abandon the Abandoners.

  9. #9
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Women, career and wall, in a hypothetical perfect society

    Quote Originally Posted by devilcomeknockin View Post
    Aargh. I get where you're going with this. I know of one PhD Microbiologist who is very much a lady, never gave a fuck about having kids, and earned her stripes through and through... because student loans. I myself had to take remedial algebra twice during my first year of school, due to Asperger's. School turned out not to be the best idea for me, because deskjobs are murderous to folks with anxiety, but college was my only perceived way out of a shit-town.

    Humorously enough, the shit-town evolved quite a bit in 25 years, and is now a better place than the college town (which may be a MGTOW conversation in itself, lol.) I have another friend who has dyscalculia (a form of dyslexia) and simply could not EVER beat algebra in college... so the college kept her loans and flipped her off, naturally. She beat everything else, had doctors vouching for her, but the college was quite happy to tell her to fuck off.

    I wouldn't be upset if my loans were relieved, but that would be unfair to all the bastards who -did- pay them off. I do believe that college loans are absolutely a predatory debt-trap aimed at young people, and very much a cornerstone factor to the decline of America. The loan industry (credit cards, especially) enabled the CC like nothing else in history.
    Yeah I have heard many things (bad things) about student debt. Though I stayed away from discussing it myself because I dont fully understand the situation. There is no such thing here in my country. The education is quite cheap. To give you an idea, I got a post-graduate degree in computer application which was three year course, and that cost me just 3000 usd . Add in transportation costs, books etc... I dont think you can go beyond 4k usd at any rate.

    The quality of education here is low, very very low. You pretty much have to learn everything by yourself if you need to learn. But nowadays, I have started hearing similar things about western universities too, so I dont know how bad it is.
    A clever fighter not only wins, but excels in winning with ease. His victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom, nor credit for courage. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.

    Sun Tzu in The Art of War
    MGTOW is about making no mistakes against gynocentrism.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Insidious_Sid's Avatar
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    Re: Women, career and wall, in a hypothetical perfect society

    Here's a theory for you. Unless women are put in Burka's and chained up they're going to destroy society by eventually (1) getting the vote and (2) voting in feminist/gynocentric governments and (3) going full socialist/tribal in pursuit of the primal mating extinct: Alpha Fux and Beta Bux. And Beta Bux can come directly from your wallet, or through the tax man, or via the (corrupt) family law courts. Doesn't matter. So long as women have money, are eating themselves plump and cranking out the crotch fruit, every blue pill idiot is happy. That's what it's like when you're simply part of a hive, a species.
    - Feminism is Cancer.
    - Where have all the good men gone? Away. Far far away... from you.
    - NAWALT? Maybe, but EWALT means Russian Roulette is a much safer bet...

  11. #11
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Women, career and wall, in a hypothetical perfect society

    Quote Originally Posted by Insidious_Sid View Post
    Here's a theory for you. Unless women are put in Burka's and chained up they're going to destroy society by eventually (1) getting the vote and (2) voting in feminist/gynocentric governments and (3) going full socialist/tribal in pursuit of the primal mating extinct: Alpha Fux and Beta Bux. And Beta Bux can come directly from your wallet, or through the tax man, or via the (corrupt) family law courts. Doesn't matter. So long as women have money, are eating themselves plump and cranking out the crotch fruit, every blue pill idiot is happy. That's what it's like when you're simply part of a hive, a species.
    Yes, they need to be under the yoke to maintain stability. Pretending that there can be some way where we can all be equal and be prosperous is either a lie/propaganda or utter ignorance or maybe both. Even in an absurd imaginative society which I talked about here, there are problems.

    That being said, I dont think that the society where women wear Burka are THAT badly oppressed relatively as others make it out to be. They practice polygamy, or polygyny to be exact, not polyandry. Which means women get to marry and live off the alphas. I dont know what happens to men who are "lesser/undesirable", I tried to talk about this to some friends (there are muslims here, quite a lot of) but they just get blue screen at that line of thought... I mean how the hell one dares talk about those helpless undesirable males !!!

    Furthuremore, male genital mutilation exists in that society, nobody talks about it as a bad thing. Male slavery/sodomy exists, nobody cares. Its just oppression to women here and oppression to women there, the same ol' song over and over again.
    A clever fighter not only wins, but excels in winning with ease. His victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom, nor credit for courage. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.

    Sun Tzu in The Art of War
    MGTOW is about making no mistakes against gynocentrism.


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