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  1. #1
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    Ultrasound before abortion

    I was going to make a point on a facebook thread. I thought I better do a little digging before I did though, and am I ever glad I did.

    The point was that an agenda is clearly at play when it comes to abortion. I can't remember the state, but they passed a law requiring a 3D ultrasound before the woman could abort. The courts overturned it on the bases that it unfairly biased the mother. Imagine that. The truth of the situation was considered unfair bias.

    In any event, I stumbled onto this article in slate. As it turns out, such policies turn out not to influence the prospective mother at all. Imagine that. A woman capable of terminating her pregnancy isn't swayed by pictures of the baby.

    So here is where I disclose my bias. Idealistically I don't agree with abortion. My religious leanings tell me that evolution is "the how" and God is "the why". I do also suspect that there is a left leaning eugenics agenda behind the pro-abortion movement.

    As a conservative leaning person, I am starting to come around to thinking abortion should be legal and paid for. I think eugenics got a bad name because previous incarnations where involuntary, thus violating free choice. Abortion as they say is all about choice. It is in fact voluntary eugenics.

    How can society evolve to a kinder and more caring thing if mothers cold enough to kill their own unborn child, are forced to carry those children to term? It seems to me that outlawing abortion is interfering with a natural mechanism built to weed out psychopaths from the gene pool. I think the left leaning eugenics agenda is wrong because it actually targets certain demographics. In my version, it would be totally open to self selection. If a demographic weeds themselves out, then so be it.

    What if state financial aid where only available to those who would self sterilize? What if the choice were actually offered to kids as they graduated from high school? How long would it take before a great deal of societies problems simply disappeared just by allowing self selection to happen?

    Apparently Islam says the human soul takes up residence in the fetus at 40 weeks. That appeals to me because I like clean lines. It makes issues like this much easier. I tried to see if Christianity had a similar opinion and couldn't find one. When I looked at Judaism, I found that ancient Jews didn't even name their babies until they were 5 years old because infant mortality was so high. It seems the answer to "When does life begin?" shifts with the sands of time.

    Keep in mind, this isn't exactly what I believe just yet. It is my current musing. I post this kind of thing specifically so I can consider the thoughts of others and see if I'm missing anything.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Azure Nomad's Avatar
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    Re: Ultrasound before abortion

    My opinion hasn't really changed.

    Abortion beyond the 2nd trimester is clearly eugenics and I find eugenics to be very racist and morally and ethically wrong in the vast majority of instances with very few exceptions. Can't discuss further due to board rules but I had to put it out there.

    Some have said that life is defined by the ability to feel pain and the nervous system develops a lot earlier than most acknowledge. Others argue that human life is defined by brain wave activity which also comes very early in the development process of a human baby fetus.

    Bottom line is humanity will never agree on when the start of life is because that would require humanity reaches a consensus on what defines death. Defining human death is the only way to truly define when human life truly begins.

    However, as technology and science improves and we learn more and more about early human development of baby fetuses it is clear that we probably have been wrong about assumptions of many things. And I think within 50 years the concept of abortions will cease to exist but replaced with the concept of designer babies which is basically eugenics 2.0.
    Last edited by Azure Nomad; May 30, 2019 at 2:15 PM.

  3. #3
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    Re: Ultrasound before abortion

    I think designer babies will definitely happen, but there still is no control on peoples desire to rut like animals. Unwanted pregnancy will always be with us.

  4. #4
    Senior Member rkspsm's Avatar
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    Re: Ultrasound before abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Nomad View Post
    My opinion hasn't really changed.

    Abortion beyond the 2nd trimester is clearly eugenics and I find eugenics to be very racist and morally and ethically wrong in the vast majority of instances with very few exceptions. Can't discuss further due to board rules but I had to put it out there.

    Some have said that life is defined by the ability to feel pain and the nervous system develops a lot earlier than most acknowledge. Others argue that human life is defined by brain wave activity which also comes very early in the development process of a human baby fetus.

    Bottom line is humanity will never agree on when the start of life is because that would require humanity reaches a consensus on what defines death. Defining human death is the only way to truly define when human life truly begins.

    However, as technology and science improves and we learn more and more about early human development of baby fetuses it is clear that we probably have been wrong about assumptions of many things. And I think within 50 years the concept of abortions will cease to exist but replaced with the concept of designer babies which is basically eugenics 2.0.
    That part might be very difficult, if not outrightly impossible in any foreseeable future. I have read that some viruses are so simple in terms of cell structure that they can be considered both living and non-living.

    And what if we are able to create life entirely from non-living input (and I think its already done). Say a bacteria, which unlike viruses, are considered living without any doubt. What if someone creates a bacteria in a lab with just some organic proteins and similar compounds. Is it really an actual living bacteria ? Or is it just a robot built from organic salts and is just acting like one ? What if its so similar to bacteria that it is impossible to distinguish between this and a real bacteria using any known metric ?

    Because of that I actually like the idea of arbitrary durations, before which abortion is allowed. Atleast they can be understood easily and enforced without any bias.

    But if I have to give some opinion on when to consider life, then I would say that we despise killing because it can be potentially painful. So maybe we can say a life isnt life until the brain is sufficiently developed to feel pain, which can probably be measured using MRI or something. I am not very sure how accurate that is, and I am even less sure of its feasibility of actual application.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Insidious_Sid's Avatar
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    Re: Ultrasound before abortion

    I have absolutely no issue with Liberal, socialist and feminist females carving the whore-spawn out of their wombs. We have enough little Chads and Tyrones running amok that we need to pay for already.
    - Feminism is Cancer.
    - Where have all the good men gone? Away. Far far away... from you.
    - NAWALT? Maybe, but EWALT means Russian Roulette is a much safer bet...

  6. #6
    Super Moderator Mr Wombat's Avatar
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    Re: Ultrasound before abortion

    Oh, my opinion is that from a religious (christian) point of view, a father holds power of life and death over their offspring, so abortion is absolutely no problem at all. (check out the book of Job, Abraham And Isaac, Jepthatah and his daughter, the fact that filial disrespect is a capital crime).

    From a non-christian point of view, the question is not "when does life begin", because the answer to that is "about one billion years ago". The ovum is alive. The sperm is alive. At no point do they die and get reborn - life is an unbroken chain going back to the original strand of RNA that happened to have the right sequence of nuceotides.

    But then again, the same is true of my skin cells, and for that matter every sperm in every spurt I have ever jizzed. Murder is not a scientific question, it is a legal question. The question is not "is the embryo alive', the question is "is it a person entitled to the protection of the rest of society".

    Getting back to the bible, we learn that Adam became a living soul when the breath entered him. Now, back in the day when that was written, physical life was identified with the breath - when the breath leaves a man, he is dead. The very words for spirit (rhema, pnumea) simply mean "breath".

    And that to me seems to be a very, very good line in the sand. Practical, sensible, workable, and with tons of precedent. If the child can breathe on its own, it's a person (legally). If it can't, it's a blood clot (legally).

    To put it a harsher way: a newborn has one and only one responsibility, only one duty it must discharge. It doesn't have to feed itself, protect itself, house or clothe itself. It's every need will be provided for, there is a positive duty on society and on its parents to make that provision, with one and only one exception. It alone is fully responsible for taking its next breath. That's it. And if it can't do that - well, sorry dude, but that's the limit.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Alik Sakharov's Avatar
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    Re: Ultrasound before abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by pbisque View Post
    I was going to make a point on a facebook thread. I thought I better do a little digging before I did though, and am I ever glad I did.

    The point was that an agenda is clearly at play when it comes to abortion. I can't remember the state, but they passed a law requiring a 3D ultrasound before the woman could abort. The courts overturned it on the bases that it unfairly biased the mother. Imagine that. The truth of the situation was considered unfair bias.

    In any event, I stumbled onto this article in slate. As it turns out, such policies turn out not to influence the prospective mother at all. Imagine that. A woman capable of terminating her pregnancy isn't swayed by pictures of the baby.

    So here is where I disclose my bias. Idealistically I don't agree with abortion. My religious leanings tell me that evolution is "the how" and God is "the why". I do also suspect that there is a left leaning eugenics agenda behind the pro-abortion movement.

    As a conservative leaning person, I am starting to come around to thinking abortion should be legal and paid for. I think eugenics got a bad name because previous incarnations where involuntary, thus violating free choice. Abortion as they say is all about choice. It is in fact voluntary eugenics.

    How can society evolve to a kinder and more caring thing if mothers cold enough to kill their own unborn child, are forced to carry those children to term? It seems to me that outlawing abortion is interfering with a natural mechanism built to weed out psychopaths from the gene pool. I think the left leaning eugenics agenda is wrong because it actually targets certain demographics. In my version, it would be totally open to self selection. If a demographic weeds themselves out, then so be it.

    What if state financial aid where only available to those who would self sterilize? What if the choice were actually offered to kids as they graduated from high school? How long would it take before a great deal of societies problems simply disappeared just by allowing self selection to happen?

    Apparently Islam says the human soul takes up residence in the fetus at 40 weeks. That appeals to me because I like clean lines. It makes issues like this much easier. I tried to see if Christianity had a similar opinion and couldn't find one. When I looked at Judaism, I found that ancient Jews didn't even name their babies until they were 5 years old because infant mortality was so high. It seems the answer to "When does life begin?" shifts with the sands of time.

    Keep in mind, this isn't exactly what I believe just yet. It is my current musing. I post this kind of thing specifically so I can consider the thoughts of others and see if I'm missing anything.
    Have you never woke up after a drunk night regretting what happened ?

    Living in drug addicted prostitution poverty with your child or getting killed by your husband overcomes blurry images on the screen hands down .

    Children are means to an end for women , if they were not expecting to tie the man down or get pity support with a child they wouldnt have them .

    Take the tieing a man down thing out of the equation and humans would stop breeding . Except for the top 0.1% rich .

    There is as much god in having children as there is god in watching porn ...
    You cant keep a player down!
    Dont hate him , hate your fuking bullshit game !

  8. #8
    Senior Member Alik Sakharov's Avatar
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    Re: Ultrasound before abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by pbisque View Post
    I think designer babies will definitely happen, but there still is no control on peoples desire to rut like animals. Unwanted pregnancy will always be with us.
    They happened from day one .

    In nature only the best get to breed .

    In human world people get perks to breed like maternity leaves , child support, council housing, charities and so on . It pays off to breed for women .

    Take the perks away and watch it . Only the top males would ever breed . Regular guys would have to rape .
    You cant keep a player down!
    Dont hate him , hate your fuking bullshit game !

  9. #9
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    Re: Ultrasound before abortion

    What I'm after is a conservative argument for being pro choice. The stereotype is that liberals are pro choice and conservatives are pro life.

    Personally, I think abortion in the third or even second trimester is pretty barbaric. I think there is a conservative argument to not only allow first trimester abortions, but to fund them. Maybe even give cash incentives to do them as early as possible. There is no doubt that an early abortion is way more cost effective that a welfare child or a medically complex third trimester abortion. Most people support the right to choose if it is early enough.

    I'm starting to think that encouraging miscreants with cash prizes to get it done early and often is the way to go. There are no natural predators to take out the weak. Best to let them do it themselves.

    Also, until recently, religion has always attributed lower status to children borne out of wedlock. The change in this attitude has been very detrimental. I have sincere sympathy for children lost to late term abortion, or those born to a single mother. That being said, the sins of their mother should not be born out by the rest of society.

  10. #10
    Super Moderator Mr Wombat's Avatar
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    Re: Ultrasound before abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by pbisque View Post
    What I'm after is a conservative argument for being pro choice.
    Well, if you want to go full libertarian, you can take the view that a woman's ownership of her own body means that she is not obliged to share it with some other person growing inside her.

    The response to that is that a woman owes a duty to her unborn child, but libertarians generally do not recognise any duties aside from those arising out of freely assented-to contract.

    So, it depends on whether you regard libertarianism as conservative. Interesting how the obvious libertarian pro-choice argument is identical to the feminist one.

  11. #11
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Ultrasound before abortion

    I say X-rays instead of ultrasound, what better way to achieve feminism's ultimate goal of destroying the future? Lets usher this motherfucker along! Why resist it when we can use cultural Judo?


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