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  1. #1
    Senior Member Opaque's Avatar
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    Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Recently had a chat with a friend about female mate selection and he said that the view I held was 'reductive'. This prompted me to make this post; are MGTOW's 'reductive' or 'simplistic' with their worldview?

    Think about how we often explain attraction on this very forum.


    • Women like tall men, women aren't interested in short men.
    • Charm plays no role in female attraction, even if you lack charm and can't even hold a conversation, as long as you fit the chad stereotype women will open their legs for you.
    • Confidence is way over-rated, even if you are shy and socially awkward, as long as you are a tall/handsome, women will take an interesting you.
    • Your personality has no influence on how women think of you. You could be well groomed, with nice perfume, dressed impeccably but if you are 5'6; the majority of women will not be attracted to you. PERIOD.
    • Women aren't interested in Beta-males and never will be, so don't even waste your time.


    Well.. I myself am very guilty of thinking in this way. I still think it is the truth, which society tries to hide. However, have you ever through that maybe female-male relationship dynamics are reducible to simple explanations?

    *update: 11th May/2019 - I meant to say aren't reducible to simple explanations? in the above.

    Or is the reductive reasoning method really simple and straightforward and dangerous for society, which is why they try to manipulate us out of it?
    Last edited by Opaque; May 11, 2019 at 6:47 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member #Redpillbible's Avatar
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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    In my opinion, yes it is reductive, which is a good thing. Of course society hates it, cause it throws a monkey wrench into the so called system, female male paradigm.

    Ive simplified it all down to one sentence, and that sentence is, women are cunts. Thatís all anybody needs to say to anybody when it comes on the topic about women, that one sentence explains everything.
    #HE IS THE ONE #LEGENDARY CROSS #MGTOW JESUS CHRIST

    #(DEFENDER OF MGTOW FORUM GO YOUR OWN WAY)

    #LIKE A DOVE FROM HEAVEN. (Luke 3:22)

    #I AM THE WAY AND THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME. (John14:6)

    #IN MY VISION AT NIGHT I LOOKED, AND THERE BEFORE ME WAS ONE LIKE A SON OF MAN, COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN. HE APPROACHED THE ANCIENT OF DAYS AND WAS LED INTO HIS PRESENCE.(Daniel 7:3)

  3. #3
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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    The real world is more mysterious than the net would have you believe, and there's odd exceptions to just about any stereotype you can name. I once met a classic nerd married to a real hottie, yet he had nothing to worry about. She was deaf, so was the guys parents, and he knew sign language as good as she did. Both looked happy, and why shouldn't they be? I still believe I once had a real live NAWALT and didn't know it. Only one though.


    But having said that, the chance of any 80% guy landing a good woman is slim to none, just as you say. It's no sin turning you back on odds like that. I only mention the exceptions because they do exist, not cause we're likely to find one.
    Every day I make the world a little bit worse.

  4. #4
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Reductive: Fuck them and fuck that!

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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Reductive/simplistic, they can spin it however they want, we only speak the raw, unadulterated, organic truth and the truth isn't meant to be sweet or pleasing. Humans in several aspects, behave no different from animals and females instinctively choose what's best and what they find attractive and it's usually a guy that exhibits an upper echelon level of masculinity in both physical and mental frames.

    People are prone to virtue signaling, making things don't seem as bad as it actually is, to instill some type of false hope for dudes to stay on the plantation of society. The chosen few know better and blaze their own path whether a woman is cool with it or not because we don't revolve around them anymore.

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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    I think mentioning that there are exceptions, along with how rare these exceptions are is a good idea. AWALT while a good operating assumption can technically be rebutted by the observation of the occasional unicorn. Realizing that there will be occasional exceptions to the rule, such as the deaf woman who likely exists outside of the Hive, just makes the general premise of MGTOW that much stronger.

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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    The claims of how MGTOW is too simplistic or reductive are just that, claims. They need to be supported by evidence comparative to the abundance of evidence that supports MGTOW's interpretation of society, to be taken seriously. Otherwise they sound like typical blue pill hamsterbation.

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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Women aren't rational which sometimes throws a wrench in any clean-cut "rules". The biggest slayer I know is a short beta schmuck who's super romantic and acts like a woman. He bonds with every woman he sees because he's one of them. His first GF was a 15 year old virgin 9 - how many "alphas" have conquests like that? Now he's getting married to a Tinder match he made pregnant (lol) but he's still a big hit with the ladies. Personality does matter and it's not always the kind you'd expect.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Alik Sakharov's Avatar
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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Quote Originally Posted by frog View Post
    The real world is more mysterious than the net would have you believe, and there's odd exceptions to just about any stereotype you can name. I once met a classic nerd married to a real hottie, yet he had nothing to worry about. She was deaf, so was the guys parents, and he knew sign language as good as she did. Both looked happy, and why shouldn't they be? I still believe I once had a real live NAWALT and didn't know it. Only one though.


    But having said that, the chance of any 80% guy landing a good woman is slim to none, just as you say. It's no sin turning you back on odds like that. I only mention the exceptions because they do exist, not cause we're likely to find one.
    Yep .

    The real world is very mysterious that is why we have such big brain . To untangle all the social situations . That we still get most of them wrong because we do not listen to our gut feeling .

    The nerd that had a hottie wife was just useful for her at that time to get herself into the real world more comfortably . A starter marriage for her and access to his friends , work colleagues and so on .

    She divorced him soon after you seen them though
    You cant keep a player down!
    Dont hate him , hate your fuking bullshit game !

  10. #10
    Senior Member Alik Sakharov's Avatar
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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    Recently had a chat with a friend about female mate selection and he said that the view I held was 'reductive'. This prompted me to make this post; are MGTOW's 'reductive' or 'simplistic' with their worldview?

    Think about how we often explain attraction on this very forum.


    • Women like tall men, women aren't interested in short men.
    • Charm plays no role in female attraction, even if you lack charm and can't even hold a conversation, as long as you fit the chad stereotype women will open their legs for you.
    • Confidence is way over-rated, even if you are shy and socially awkward, as long as you are a tall/handsome, women will take an interesting you.
    • Your personality has no influence on how women think of you. You could be well groomed, with nice perfume, dressed impeccably but if you are 5'6; the majority of women will not be attracted to you. PERIOD.
    • Women aren't interested in Beta-males and never will be, so don't even waste your time.


    Well.. I myself am very guilty of thinking in this way. I still think it is the truth, which society tries to hide. However, have you ever through that maybe female-male relationship dynamics are reducible to simple explanations?

    *update: 11th May/2019 - I meant to say aren't reducible to simple explanations? in the above.

    Or is the reductive reasoning method really simple and straightforward and dangerous for society, which is why they try to manipulate us out of it?
    LOL Paq , what is wrong with the statements in bold ?

    Of course it is that simple . The only difference it makes is whether she already has baby rabies , her girlfriends marrying left and right and the kind of bullshit you have no control over . Basically her social circle .

    But the motive is that simple - a man must work .
    You cant keep a player down!
    Dont hate him , hate your fuking bullshit game !

  11. #11
    Senior Member O.G.'s Avatar
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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Opaque View Post
    Recently had a chat with a friend about female mate selection and he said that the view I held was 'reductive'. This prompted me to make this post; are MGTOW's 'reductive' or 'simplistic' with their worldview?

    Think about how we often explain attraction on this very forum.


    • Women like tall men, women aren't interested in short men.
    • Charm plays no role in female attraction, even if you lack charm and can't even hold a conversation, as long as you fit the chad stereotype women will open their legs for you.
    • Confidence is way over-rated, even if you are shy and socially awkward, as long as you are a tall/handsome, women will take an interesting you.
    • Your personality has no influence on how women think of you. You could be well groomed, with nice perfume, dressed impeccably but if you are 5'6; the majority of women will not be attracted to you. PERIOD.
    • Women aren't interested in Beta-males and never will be, so don't even waste your time.


    Well.. I myself am very guilty of thinking in this way. I still think it is the truth, which society tries to hide. However, have you ever through that maybe female-male relationship dynamics are reducible to simple explanations?

    *update: 11th May/2019 - I meant to say aren't reducible to simple explanations? in the above.

    Or is the reductive reasoning method really simple and straightforward and dangerous for society, which is why they try to manipulate us out of it?
    I think a lot of what is said here in regards to women and all their behaviors is very reductive. It's just not necessarily wrong. Nor is it right. It seems to me it is directly tied to your personal concept of AWALT vs. EWALT vs. NAWALT. So I don't think there is a neatly defined hard set of rules or guidelines that can work in all cases for all men.

    My lifetime experience has had me as witness that the charm, height, confidence, and personality attraction views expressed are shattered quite frequently. Seen plenty of hot women over my years, with men labeled unattractive or undesirable. It's just not the majority of the time.

    Once again I find my EWALT view of women reinforced. Enough women behave the ways that get talked about here. Which makes MGTOW ideas and concepts of women, worthwhile of a mans consideration when defining how he will live his life.

    MGTOW provides a man a place to get "the other side of the story" about women. In the past this was very hard information for a man to obtain. Like all things, that information about women can be anywhere from unpleasant to down right evil.

    I think each man must decide for himself what role he will allow women to play in his life. I would say it's more a sliding scale of from 0-10. With each man deciding for himself what the parameters of that scale are. How involved will you or won't you chose to be with women in your life? A very personal decision each man should make for himself. It is why this is called going your own way.

    The main advantage to MGTOW is it provides a man the once hidden information, of just how wrong it can go for a man when dealing with women.
    "People are always angry at anyone who chooses very individual standards for his life; because of the extraordinary treatment which that man grants to himself, they feel degraded, like ordinary beings."
    - Nietzsche


  12. #12
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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    This whole thing reminds me of a Three Stooges short named "Half-Wits Holiday" where two over-educated mucky-mucks played by Ted Lorch and Vernon Dent argue whether heredity or environment is responsible for a man's behavior. Then the three plumbers arrive and begin to demonstrate every trait of stupidity as they commence work.

    All right. We can analyze that laughable situation until dinner time, and argue what its causes are, or whether we're using the correct methodology. That's fine, but where does all that hot air lead? To anything useful, apart from the academic exercise itself? I believe the answer is no, because the situation is obviously so dire and past repair that that fact, all on its own, overcomes any discussions around how to analyze it. The plumbers are morons and they need to be gotten off the property for the safety of everyone.

    It doesn't really matter what methodology you use during a post-mortem on the corpse that was once traditional dating and marriage. Or what you might find during that process. The only piece of information you require is whether the body is actually dead. Nothing more than that, because that determination alone is the only input needed to know how to proceed with one's life. Anything over and above that is just noise.

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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alik Sakharov View Post
    Yep .

    The real world is very mysterious that is why we have such big brain . To untangle all the social situations . That we still get most of them wrong because we do not listen to our gut feeling .

    The nerd that had a hottie wife was just useful for her at that time to get herself into the real world more comfortably . A starter marriage for her and access to his friends , work colleagues and so on .

    She divorced him soon after you seen them though
    Think your wrong this time my friend. Being deaf is like living in a country where hardly anyone speaks the language. Your always on the outside looking in. I doubt this hottie went anywhere, though I don't really know.
    Every day I make the world a little bit worse.

  14. #14
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Good replies!
    I liken the whole modern gender paradigm to a crap shoot with loaded dice, or a raffle with preordained winners, or any other gamble where the odds are extremely out of favor or non existent entirely!

    The time, effort, and money isn't worth playing the game!

    Time: 18 years of child support, alimony, and half your stuff?

    Effort: Endless hours of your productivity to be waged against you in a legal battle against you?

    Money: Constant drain on your bank account and futures for her whims, comforts, wants, and desires as she extorts you in return for a little peace and quiet all the while you sacrifice anything and everything logical for your well being and security?

    The extrapolation is easy, YOU LOOSE, she moves on to another wallet to rinse and repeat, it's no different than being hustled by a con artist.

  15. #15
    Senior Member O.G.'s Avatar
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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Quote Originally Posted by kru-kut View Post
    This whole thing reminds me of a Three Stooges short named "Half-Wits Holiday" where two over-educated mucky-mucks played by Ted Lorch and Vernon Dent argue whether heredity or environment is responsible for a man's behavior. Then the three plumbers arrive and begin to demonstrate every trait of stupidity as they commence work.

    All right. We can analyze that laughable situation until dinner time, and argue what its causes are, or whether we're using the correct methodology. That's fine, but where does all that hot air lead? To anything useful, apart from the academic exercise itself? I believe the answer is no, because the situation is obviously so dire and past repair that that fact, all on its own, overcomes any discussions around how to analyze it. The plumbers are morons and they need to be gotten off the property for the safety of everyone.

    It doesn't really matter what methodology you use during a post-mortem on the corpse that was once traditional dating and marriage. Or what you might find during that process. The only piece of information you require is whether the body is actually dead. Nothing more than that, because that determination alone is the only input needed to know how to proceed with one's life. Anything over and above that is just noise.
    So it's more like Men Going THE ONLY Way then?
    "People are always angry at anyone who chooses very individual standards for his life; because of the extraordinary treatment which that man grants to himself, they feel degraded, like ordinary beings."
    - Nietzsche


  16. #16
    Super Moderator Mr Wombat's Avatar
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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Reductive? Of course it's reductive - most folk wisdom is reductive. Isn't "Do unto others as you would that they do unto you" about as reductive as you can get?

    The issue is: does the fact that MGTOW and the RP world has noticed and can enunciate certain general truths about life, women, male/female relationships, does the bare fact that we have noticed these things in and of itself mean that it's best to ignore them?

    I mean, shit:
    "It's best to pay your taxes on time."
    "Naaah, bullshit man, that's reductive."
    "If you have a weird mole on your skin that chenges colour suddenly, you should see a doctor about it."
    "Naaah, bullshit man, that's reductive."
    "Half of all marriages end in divorce and usually it's the male parter gets the shitty end of the stick."
    "Naaah, bullshit man, that's reductive."
    "Reductive" isn't an argument. "Reductive" is fingers-in-the-ears "La la la not listening not listening not listening!"

    --- EDIT --

    Having said that, re-reading the post the issue was a bit more specific. It was specifically about female mate selection.

    I suppose the real answer to Opaque's friend is: "Dude, you have been lied to your whole life. It really is that simple."

    Or perhaps:

    "We are just talking about how women select men they want to fuck. What you don't seem to get is that this has very little to do with who they want to marry. Men only think women's mate choice criteria are complex because they mix the two of these up. In the RP world, we call this 'gender myopia'."

    Or maybe it's as simple as:

    "Fuck your 'reductive', fuck all your other excuses too, you gotta lift, bro!"

  17. #17
    Senior Member Zoidberg's Avatar
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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Quote Originally Posted by #Redpillbible View Post
    Ive simplified it all down to one sentence, and that sentence is, women are cunts.
    And what do you say to cunts? No.

    There, it’s simplified to one word. The word without which there is no freedom.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Alik Sakharov's Avatar
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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Quote Originally Posted by frog View Post
    Think your wrong this time my friend. Being deaf is like living in a country where hardly anyone speaks the language. Your always on the outside looking in. I doubt this hottie went anywhere, though I don't really know.
    My point was if she wasnt deaf you wouldnt see her dead with that guy .

    Everything else is just a common bullshit people pull on each other . Though sometimes its very well thought out and you cant see straight through it .
    You cant keep a player down!
    Dont hate him , hate your fuking bullshit game !

  19. #19
    Senior Member Alik Sakharov's Avatar
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    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wombat View Post
    Reductive? Of course it's reductive - most folk wisdom is reductive. Isn't "Do unto others as you would that they do unto you" about as reductive as you can get?

    The issue is: does the fact that MGTOW and the RP world has noticed and can enunciate certain general truths about life, women, male/female relationships, does the bare fact that we have noticed these things in and of itself mean that it's best to ignore them?

    I mean, shit:




    "Reductive" isn't an argument. "Reductive" is fingers-in-the-ears "La la la not listening not listening not listening!"

    --- EDIT --

    Having said that, re-reading the post the issue was a bit more specific. It was specifically about female mate selection.

    I suppose the real answer to Opaque's friend is: "Dude, you have been lied to your whole life. It really is that simple."

    Or perhaps:

    "We are just talking about how women select men they want to fuck. What you don't seem to get is that this has very little to do with who they want to marry. Men only think women's mate choice criteria are complex because they mix the two of these up. In the RP world, we call this 'gender myopia'."

    Or maybe it's as simple as:

    "Fuck your 'reductive', fuck all your other excuses too, you gotta lift, bro!"
    All women live two different lives .

    Some men do too but the percentage is very low . Its very hard to pull off for a man cause he must work .
    You cant keep a player down!
    Dont hate him , hate your fuking bullshit game !

  20. #20

    Re: Is MGTOW too 'reductive'?

    Reductive? Yes... Yet I see it as similar to the political scale of Left vs Right. Back in the W presidency, alot of folks on the left were saying that the Right had succeeded in moving the *center* further to the right, therefore any truly Liberal position was portrayed as Extreme Leftism. And this was partially true. Republicans were fanatically loyal to W. To the point that I once heard some redneck declare one of the founding members of The Heritage Foundation(!) a radical leftist when he said that Fox News (early outrage industry) was hijacking the Republican party. There are many more examples, but it was ludicrous back then. Nowadays the Right seems like the rational side, which I never thought in a million years I would see. (Again, I was hardcore SJW for decades before the term SJW was even coined.)

    In a similar manner, I'm starting to believe that "reeeee-lationships" have been drastically over-mystified in service of the Romance Industry. It isn't really that complicated, but humans insist it must be, because then they get the fun of drama. Once I made the mental-jump to viewing humans strictly as super-developed scavenger animal species, so many things started making sense. By removing the fantasy, and focusing on base physical reality; I was able to start making sense of it all.. And that eventually led me to MGTOW. And strangely enough, I feel a deeper connection with humanity than ever before. I cherish them as miracles of evolution, that -should not have happened- But did. This doesn't mean they are any less cold-blooded... we are apex scavengers after all. And shining example of spirits made flesh, but I'm not going to get into that...

    Point being, though we may be a bit reductive, the most complex system on the Earth (the human species) is still built of nothing more than molecules, and if you consider molecular physics to be too reductive, you can never possibly understand that system. We are defining, analyzing, field-testing, theorizing, classifying and re-testing a methodogical framework for understanding a field of behavioural study that has been suppressed for CENTURIES...

    To me, this forum serves many purposes. A support network for trauma survivors, a "safe-space" (believe it or not) for addicts in recovery, a self-improvement resource, and a hub for anecdotal research and folk-wisdom; as Mr Wombat put it. MGTOW forums are the coffee-shops that housewives got banned in England, the Masons, the Moose club, the barber-shop, the hunting lodge...

    These places have been lost to us, and we're reclaiming them. <3

    Edit: Back when I was a regular on a PTSD forum, one of the discoveries I made is that, in the course of reducing my stories of abuse to concise terms which were easily communicated, I helped reduce the emotional impact of that trauma. Whereas once upon a time I ruminated on every detail of my abusive relationships, reducing the story helped me to stop being overwhelmed by the enormity of it all. I guess you could say that I stopped looking on the Forest and started gazing only at the trees... and the big, black forest was not so terrifying. Reduction has it's merits.
    Last edited by devilcomeknockin; May 12, 2019 at 1:26 AM.
    And it's nothing but wide open prairie...

    There's something very fun about MGTOW. In an odd sense, like charting a new territory of the mind, or rediscovering a long lost civilization. Occult knowledge, secret societies, cannibal natives (THOTS), it's all very exciting... lololol.

    Abandon the Abandoners. Go Your Own Way, on a molecular scale. <3


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