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  1. #1
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    Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    No offense to anyone. I know that this is a controversial topic, but I've noticed that many MGTOW are actually guy's who can't get laid even if they wanted to.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2

    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    not every mgtow has chosen to be mgtow?

    Some were just trying to get laid and couldn't...?

    My thoughts: Not every winner of the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes was trying to get rich.

    Some were just trying to buy a magazine subscription.

    Not all good fortune is earned... :-)

  3. #3
    Senior Member Neo's Avatar
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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    That sort of thing only matters to those that fall for the trap of female validation. Break down the term 'incel' and you will also notice it doesn't even make any sense either (unless you are referring to love, relationships, commitment and marriage). Which gender is mostly concerned about those?.....not men. The term incel is female projection....and they did a great job because most guys believe in the term!
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    So you've noticed that many MGTOWs are closet incels, have you?

    How did you identify these MGTOWs? Were they wearing their T shirts? Were they carrying identity cards? Point is, you cant tell from looks who is MIGTOW and who isn't. OK, you can tell when someone's not MGTOW, but its hard to prove when they are. Did they say they were MGTOW? Same difference, lots of us don't say much in meatspace, and many of our friends don't have a clue.

    So I have trouble believing you know enough MGTOWs or incels for that matter to make much of a judgment.
    Every day I make the world a little bit worse.

  5. #5
    Senior Member mgtower's Avatar
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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    Placing any value on "getting laid" is waging a war against yourself and giving the adversary all the weapons they need, without that misplaced value, women would cease to have any value outside what they're actually worth as a human being, the "emphases" wouldn't be so much on sex as it would be on "other things" like generations past that scorn bad behavior and made people accountable for their actions and ill intentions. But that's all out the window now, and so am I!

    Why is the narrative set to the weakest among us? Why isn't the question asked why so many men turn down sex offered freely? All I've done since abandoning the thought of marriage and relationshits was to turn down women, sex, and all the other tag-along bullshit that comes with them.

    Why isn't the narrative set on the men that brush themselves off? The guys that against all odds revive themselves from a would-be grave? Why isn't that logic examined and enlightened? I'm certain the vast majority of men that chose to leave the plantation did so for those reasons.

    Lets change the narrative of this topic and examine the reasons why so many of us that can, and don't get laid, and the reasons why we refuse sex choosing to abstain.

    I'm sure a few of the guys here can fill you in about the choice they've made and the logical reasons for making it!

  6. #6
    Administrator Unboxxed's Avatar
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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    Quote Originally Posted by bcroger2 View Post
    who can't get laid even if they wanted to.
    frog brings up a point worthy of clarification, please. How have you been able to notice this?

    Your phrase that I recapped is so often used in a subjective sense and few men likely would say that about themselves, so what did these MGTOW say that has you assessing them in this way? As frog wonders, how did you meet and identify them, if not online?

    If you expand on what you are saying, it will help the discussion.

    Thanks.
    The two most important days in your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. - Mark Twain

    The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
    - Henry David Thoreau

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  7. #7

    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    I suppose a young man could be an incel, then start reading up on the nature of females, then decide that he wan'ts nothing to do with them. Most of us came to the same conclusion after haven gotten burned too many times, rather than rejected.

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    Senior Member Jackal's Avatar
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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    I believe most MGTOW are that because they make a cost-benefits calculation and decide to drop the total package.

    Sure many are MGTOW cause they cant get the hottie they want and would rather stay alone than getting a grenade (especially given the cost either case), I believe MGTOW its all about a cost-benefit ratio.

    I would give women a shot easily if their demands didnt unproportionately outmatch what they offer but at the current condition its just not worth.

    Regarding incel, they are not mgtow simply cause they dont have any option to chose from unlike the guys from the previous example.

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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    Internet MGTOWs may be a dime a dozen, but what do we really know about them? That's right, nothing. Nothing that can be proved anyway. We could be just as big a liars as married guys, though that would be hard to do.

    It would of been easy, but not right to peg me as an incel when I was young. Though no lady killer, even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. Sure wasn't MGTOW either, but it hadn't been invented yet, or the word wasn't being spread if it had.
    Every day I make the world a little bit worse.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Azure Nomad's Avatar
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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    Quote Originally Posted by bcroger2 View Post
    No offense to anyone. I know that this is a controversial topic, but I've noticed that many MGTOW are actually guy's who can't get laid even if they wanted to.

    Thoughts?
    I don't think it is a controversial topic. It is often talked about right up there with NAWALT vs AWALT and what is the line of red pill/purple pill? To me if a man doesn't seek female validation to boost self esteem that man is going their own way.

    Incels are not far from reaching a mgtow mindset. But that requires to build up their own internal self esteem and put the value back onto themselves. In other words these men are the prize and not what gynocentric society thinks is the prize.

  11. #11
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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    The only incels are forced eunuchs.

    Any man willing to put the time, effort and money into pursuing women can get some. It might be a landwhale, high maintenance gal or psycho(lol 80% of women today), but he can get some sex. Men are just realizing that it isn't worth the effort today. 50 years ago when the risks were lower, and the babes hotter and more feminine, men took the risk. Have you seen the way women look and behave today? The 49rs (girls that are 4s and think they are 9s) want you to pray to them and be their slave. Today a man would have to be absolutely nuts to marry a woman over 35. And I would argue, it is a huge gamble if you think you found a 22 yr old unicorn.
    That 22 yr old unicorn will soon be a 35 yr old feminist that will divorcerape her husband

    MGTOW is a rational VOLUNTARY choice

    I cant describe the happiness of having not to get up every morning and be a slave to a woman. I can do what I want when I want

  12. #12

    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    This post reminds me of a joke:

    Little Jonny is doing his science homework and the assignment is to explain the difference between theory and reality. He goes to ask his father to help him. His father explains that he could explain it to him, but there is an experiment that he could do that would illustrate the point better and be a better learning experience, if little Johnny would be willing to participate. Little Johnny agrees, and his father tells him to go find his teenaged sister and ask her if she would have sex with a strange man for $100,000. Little Johnny thinks this is a weird experiment, but he agreed to participate, and so he finds his stere and asks her. His sister hears the question and says, "Well, hell yeah! $100,000 is lot of money, and sex is pretty easy...".

    Little Johnny returns to his father and reports what his sister said. His father then instructs him to go find his mother and ask her the same question. Little Johnny now believes this a a really weird experiment, and says so. But his father explains that the experiment is almost over, so Johnny agrees. When he finds his mother and present her the question, his mother thinks about it for a few seconds and says, "Well, as tight as money is around here right now... and if it was only one time... and no one would ever know... I guess I might do it just this once for $100,000...".

    Little Johnny returns to his father and tells him what his mother said, but then adds that this has been a very strange experiment, and having competed it, he still doesn't feel any closer to understanding the difference between theory and reality.

    His father says, "Well Johnny, it's like this: In theory, we have $200,000. But in reality, we are living with a couple of whores...".

    Funny as this might be, the point is that most of us cannot name even one woman we know who would turn down the chance to be paid $100,000 to have sex with a strange man. So, I would argue that at some price point, any woman willingly becomes a prostitute. It's just the amount that varies from one woman to another. At one dollar below that price point, a woman will say "No" and turn down the offer.

    The reverse of this is also true. If the cost of sex/relationships never rose beyond $1, there probably wouldn't be any men who would choose to be mgtow. However, at a price point of say, a million dollars to get laid, every man becomes a mgtow. Even a multi-millionaire, who can actually afford to write a million dollar check, is still going to be a mgtow at that price point. Other men with less money may become an involuntary mgtow at lower price points.

    In most freely made economic transactions (not involving government or criminal influence) the law of supply and demand rules commerce and sets prices very quickly. However, what we are seeing with women in western civilizations is that the supply is going up as more and more women have fewer and fewer restrictions on their sexual behavior. The demand would seem to be unchanged as there is about the same number of men in the population with about the same level of hormonal motivation to mate. However, given the plummeting rates of marriage, it appears that the demand for this product, at least on the wholesale/long term market is dropping). So left to the economic law of supply and demand, the price should be falling. However, mainly due to the influence of artificial government interference, the retail price being demanded for sex/relationships is being raised every day.

    If you extend this trend, and make the price artificially inflated to a high enough point, THEN EVERY MAN BECOMES A MGTOW, either by choice, or by being unable to pay that inflated price. Those of us with the most money and the least brains might become mgtow last, but ultimately, what's the difference?

    As I see it, the only difference between voluntary and involuntary mgtow will be that voluntary mgtow got out of this over-inflated market sooner, with much more of their money/freedom intact. Whereas involuntary mgtow got out after giving or being robbed of all their money in the course of their attempt to keep up with this nonsensical price gouging scheme.

  13. #13
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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    Many good responses on this thread. The way I see it, a man can only be an INCEL if he is still on the Gynocentric Plantation and is seeking validation from women. Thus it can only apply to Plantation slaves. An INCEL is just one more type of Plantation Slave along with Chads, Alphas, Beta Orbiters, Beta Cucks, Beta Wallets, Simps, and TradCons. As soon as a man walks off the Plantation he realizes that his worth is not measured by what women think of him, he doesn't need their validation, and the term INCEL can not be properly applied to him as it is no longer relevant to his existence.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Opaque's Avatar
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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    That sort of thing only matters to those that fall for the trap of female validation. Break down the term 'incel' and you will also notice it doesn't even make any sense either (unless you are referring to love, relationships, commitment and marriage). Which gender is mostly concerned about those?.....not men. The term incel is female projection....and they did a great job because most guys believe in the term!
    Yes, indeed, thank you sir for clarifying.
    This is precisely why I don't like labels - not that they have no value. There is such a thing as incel/MGTOW/PUA, we often make distinctions on this forum and accept/reject would be members because of these labels/concepts.

    No one is saying you should 'get rid of labels'. But you have to see what is behind them.
    As Neo has rightly and succinctly pointed out. 'Incel' can be a word people use to describe anyone and anything. MGTOW too - it can become diluted and lose meaning; or it can conjure up a negative meaning (with enough propaganda from the popular culture).

    With regards to your point below:

    No offense to anyone. I know that this is a controversial topic, but I've noticed that many MGTOW are actually guy's who can't get laid even if they wanted to.
    In the modern, mechanised, highly technicised world where Tinder is THE APP of choice, anyone who isn't in 95% on hotness scale is completely invisible to women - even the ugliest woman. Women would much rather share a hyper alpha than 'settle'. That is a very very dirty word to women and will not make her cream; plus she has to deal with social validation and biological imperative of 'improving the genetics'.

    In earlier years, 40s/50s, women had limits - namely lack of access to money and their own financial freedom (they were not a part of the workforce).

    In the 60s/70s - this was a better time since, although women had hypergamous instincts, they put a lid on it when it came to sex at least (but maybe not procreation). That is the hippy idea of free love - which was good for men who weren't christian grey - since they could at least get laid, and have a relationship.

    Now with social media - the story is very different. No woman - even the ugly ones would even consider a BETA's existence. It's a shame since I think both men and women (in particular woman) need to relax their ridiculous 'standards' to enjoy sex freely.

    In this modern era, everything, including sex and sexuality has become political/ideological and or transactional. There is no fun, no grander concept about connecting with another human being, no appreciation for another's desires, no curiosity, no romance, no seduction and basically no fun.

    So basically no one is having sex. Even a very attractive/wealthy man, if he is in the big city will have to work extra extra hard just to even keep a conversation going with a woman. That is because of social media and apps like TINDER. Woman have way way more choice than ever - and the 'top tier' of men don't at all mind sharing them.

    bcRoger, I think that you have shared an interesting question, but I think you are still a young man and learning more about the world. When it comes to issues like the one you have raised, the reasons for it are multi-faceted. You cannot simply say 'well so and so cannot get laid and therefore he becomes a MGTOW' - even though what you say has truth in it, it doesn't really take into account, why, how, who, where and how the current cultural paradigm shapes people's behaviours.

    Let me give you an example, I am an ugly below average beta. Overweight, but well-employed (for now).
    Where I live here in London, I am very active in the night life and meeting woman. I have been going out almost on a weekly basis with either friends or business associates. And we almost always strike up conversations with women, invite them for a dance/drink. They almost always say no. The ones who say yes, we try to seduce and show them a good time.

    Then at the end of night we try to invite them back to the hotel. And almost always they say no.

    Contrast this with my other story when I was in South America on business.

    I went there several years ago and was 'studying' our companies' latest products. This South American country was rich in resources but the people were poor and there were stunning single mothers.

    My TINDER was ringing like an earthquake as soon as I landed on the airport. And these were 11/10 on the hotness scale.

    What was the difference? Well it came down to economics and the fact that in South America, people are generally sexually liberated. So it was a combination of culture (sexual liberation) and economics (sexy female, but no/low income)

  15. #15

    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    This, coming from the guy at college who said he would date a fat girl he didn't like because "it's not like he could do better" but got rejected for a Chad?

    Not trying to be incendiary here, but it seems you may be projecting a little. To answer your question, yes, I think there are some MGTOW who are really just bitter incels, but I think the vast majority of us are either just pissed off or just don't give a fuck anymore. Most of us either want nothing to do with women, or we may occasionally date or use them for sex, but avoid relationships and especially marriage/cohabitation/children.

    There are lots of older MGTOW who came here only after being destroyed in divorce/family court, those guys are not incels. There are also a lot of younger guys who are just opting out, who really haven't done anything with women, or have done very little and just decided to say fuck it. I think you are only an incel if you are trying to get laid, and can't; that's what involuntary celibate means. If you are not trying to get laid and don't give a shit about women at all, you're more a MGTOW, it has nothing to do with your ability to get laid.

    There are also a lot of us who are "monk" which means we choose not to pursue relationships and women at all, even though we could have them if we wanted to. This is where I am at now, as of a few months ago, and to be honest I think this is the right path for me now. I have a very high notch count, but I just have no interest in women or relationships anymore, and I don't see the point in pursuing either. There are just other things I'd rather be doing that actually add positive value to my life, and don't expose me to unnecessary legal, financial, and emotional liabilities.

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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    Once again, Xanthine raises an excellent point. "If you are trying to get laid, and can't, then you could be labeled an INCEL." If you aren't trying to get laid, then you are a voluntary celibate, also known as "monk". So the label of INCEL refers more to the state of mind of the man, and not to his SMV. Deciding that "the juice isn't worth the squeeze." doesn't make anyone an incel.

  17. #17

    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    I do not fully comprehend the 'incel' terminology. Its (to my limited perceptions) a dig on male autonomy similar to how nerdy gamer types were sterotyped by women in the 80s. Now women can't be bothered to look away from their smartphones while walking down a street or driving. Shaming aside, as a society that functions on morality (justice and fairness) applicable to women then rape is rightly a criminal act. Which leaves entire sexual autonomy at the hands of women. Instead of cherishing this inherent privilege they choose to shame the men who THEY decide not to sleep with.

    If the simple exchange of goods is at the base of incel-dom then I create fem-cels everyday by refusing to give them attention when they are clearly bothered by it. I have turned down sex by women who are undeserving and do not meet my standards. Those women would still call me incel or gay.

    As @ABigSiameseCat pointed out - the dig works only for a man willing to play and stay at the plantation.

    I often get called derogatory names by women whose shelf-life is long expired. The attractive hot ones are too busy doing their thing. But one day they too will encounter incels. Ironically, it is a woman's depreciated assets in the market value that make her resonate more with shaming language - their last straw at unsuccessfully warding off the incoming Wall .
    when it gets too cheap and feels cheap, wealth is about not owning it or desiring it, but discarding it if one finds himself in possession of it...

  18. #18
    Senior Member Neo's Avatar
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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    Quote Originally Posted by ABigSiameseCat View Post
    Once again, Xanthine raises an excellent point. "If you are trying to get laid, and can't, then you could be labeled an INCEL." If you aren't trying to get laid, then you are a voluntary celibate, also known as "monk". So the label of INCEL refers more to the state of mind of the man, and not to his SMV. Deciding that "the juice isn't worth the squeeze." doesn't make anyone an incel.
    The term 'involuntary cannot be used to refer to anything that can be purchased, traded or borrowed.

    Love is what no one can buy....but sex is purchased in many ways in various cultures throughout history. One should ask themselves why the term is not being matched to what cannot be purchased.
    It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

  19. #19
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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    Not really my concern if they are incels or not. There is nothing to say someone can not be both. As long as they don't bring the baggage with them, it is fine by me. I estimate, by talking to MGTOW's one on one, that about a third of our community may come from an incel background. About a third from divorced fathers and a third or so from the PUA community. This is just my estimation and may not be accurate. Regardless of where men come from, here they are. MGTOW isn't a origin, it's a destination.

  20. #20
    Junior Member Wally's Avatar
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    Re: Are many MGTOW just incels who pretend that they choose to be single?I know this

    Probably are many men who are incels, but they are still better off than your average married man, as many have said they are just a couple of steps away from realizing the truth. I have two friends in their 60's both have had 3 divorces, would their lives have been better if they had been incels? That's the million dollar question because that's about the amount of money each lost.


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