Game Author Misinterprets MGTOW

[jagrmeister]

The Isolationists |

My response here:
jagrmeister721 comments on The Isolationists

The latent rationale becomes one of sour grapes, disdain the things you can’t have while making necessity a virtue.

At root, you've fundamentally misinterpreted MGTOW and equated it with incel. Most MGTOWs have dated, have married, etc. and have decided to recalibrate their investment in pursuing, based on the quality of the women they've experienced to-date.


Everyone is different; men are different from one another. It's likely that the temperament of a MGTOW is less amenable to never-ending shit tests, games, techniques like dread; more oriented towards mutualism than opportunism. That doesn't make them better, it just makes them perceive the ben franklin ledger with respect to the modern woman different than other men.

The real pussy begging comes from demanding a woman to come over to your perspective unbidden and unmerited.

This builds on the same false assumption. It assumes the problem stems from some kind of character flaw that prevents them from pursuing women, and not the considered choice of the pro/cons, including the 'overhead' in relationships (short-term or long-term) as gauged from past experience. The underlying premises in the writeup seem to overvalue the nobility of the hunt.

--

Essentially, Tomassi's perspective is fairly similar to the feminist attitude: if you're MGTOW, that means something's wrong with you. I guarantee you there are MGTOWs whose accomplishments far outstrip those of PUAs and are much happier. And perhaps some vice-versa. We will always have in the manosphere the unfortunate tendency for adherents to one lifestyle feel a need to re-affirm their path, and cast aspersions on those taking a different route. As will be often the case, they will find it easier to borrow the short-hand stereotypes to misrepresent fellow men, often borrowing aspects of the caricature & assumptions from the enemies of the community of men. It is simpler to unburden onesself cognitively and trade off 2-d depictions.

Even as the MGTOW culture grows, I challenge us to take a different tack and take the time to resist the habit of describing other red pill men such as PUAs and MRAs in the same way that feminists do.

[sirreaper]

Well debunked my compadre.

[Chairborne]

My response:
___________

"...Make your mission not your woman your imperative, but in that mission be the Man a woman will want to be associated with."

There is a fundamental flaw in this reasoning. Allow me to illustrate:

I became a MGHOW following years of dating, short term relationships and one long term relationship. Only then did I rediscover my mission(s) in life; competing in biathlon, drumming in a jazz band, learning philosophy and being able to limit my time in the office by dramatically cutting my lifestyle costs.

None of those missions attract women. So are you suggesting that I alter my missions so as to attract a woman? Perhaps I should abandon biathlon so as to get bulked up in the gym instead? Or maybe work more hours so I can afford to peacock my wealth to attract a broad who will ultimately see me only as a utility? Or dumb-down my interest in philosophy or avant-garde jazz, because they're male-dominated fields and study fashion or social justice instead - since those are more female-friendly endeavours?

Because if that's your suggestion, no thanks - the opportunity cost of doing so is too high.

I get what you're trying to say about MGTOW and "the isolationists," but you're missing the mark because ultimately you're writing from a position of ignorance. You don't really understand our motives, nor do you understand the rational thought we've put into our strategy to navigate the situation.

You get B+ for effort, but only D- for execution.

[Azure Nomad]

Everyone that has taken the red pill agrees that you can't hold frame forever, so why is there such a struggle to accept the concept of MGTOW? I have three ideas I would like to propose as to why purple pill PUA don't understand mgtow:

1. They dabble in the blue pill world so much to gain what they want and yet they lose sight of what they can gain without gaming the blue pill world. Game is very potent in the blue pill world yes, but it is not necessary for all journeys, adventures or endeavors.

2. If you have the power and understanding of game, via the redpill, the PUA's don't understand why wouldn't you utilize it? Well, just because you have the power to game doesn't necessarily mean you have to use it. It is a personal choice when you want to excercise this tool and it provides a degree of freedom. Want to game your coworker today, but a month later want to go monk mode? Why not? Want to not bother with game and p4p? Why not?

3. Game is hard to translate to a long term investment (especially with relationships). Relationships are dynamic and as a result they change because people are able to change. People change due to learning and adjusting to what you are doing. On a cognitive level you can manipulate how people feel in the short term, but over the long haul human brains have evolved to eventually filter out manipulation and focus on key ideas. Holding frame over the long haul isn't a realistic proposition which is why it is a tool you can leverage once in a while. Game works because you are overloading the working memory of the mind. But once it is uploaded to the long term part of a brain a person can deconstruct it. This deconstruction of gaming means that even if you hold frame the jig is up.

Overall, I think that game is an integral part of redpill. However, it is indeed myopic to think it is a tool that can do it all. It is one of many tools from a tool box that you choose to utilize in certain, niche situations. Trying to use a hammer to solve all situations for example isn't a good idea.

[Mr Wombat]

My response to Rollo's post: cool, man - whatever works for you.

[The Running Man]

Good responses. Some of these PUA bloggers, even though they have good articles, don't seem to get that the main difference between them and MGTOW is not the social skills or the social awareness (because most MGTOW have good knowledge of the Game); it's actually the cost vs benefit assessment and what we choose to be our priority. PUA lives still revolve around pussy. That's the bottom line.

[Darth Sin]

Rollo did not misunderstand MGTOW. Misunderstanding implies that he can actually change his mind. Men like Rollo or Roosh, they are at their core, white knights who learned to attract women. They are manginas who learned Game.

To men like Rollo, the notion of a man not choosing to adhere to what women think of him, the notion of a man making a conscious choice to live his life without dating women or romancing women or marrying women or breeding women is unthinkable.

Look at his words :- "I am not sure that men can actually be indifferent to the power of pussy." or "MGTOW isolate themselves."

You see, the core of being a MGTOW is to not rely on female approval, female validation, female sexual organs and female attention. The core of MGTOW philosophy is true male independence.

Personally, I am not an isolationist. I mix with people, I talk, I troll, I prank...I do all these things, with women and with men...

PUAs on the other hand are still dependent on pussy. They still structure their lives around getting pussy and getting approval from the ones who have pussy. Sure some of them claim it is a "balance between pussy and mission" but for MGTOW, the pussy is either completely optional or not interesting or not worthwhile.

Bottom line is, MGTOW is a rational logical choice of life. It is the path that man would take if he was to assess reality in a rational manner. PUA is the path taken by in-betweeners.

[Darth Sin]

Everyone that has taken the red pill agrees that you can't hold frame forever, so why is there such a struggle to accept the concept of MGTOW? I have three ideas I would like to propose as to why purple pill PUA don't understand mgtow:

1. They dabble in the blue pill world so much to gain what they want and yet they lose sight of what they can gain without gaming the blue pill world. Game is very potent in the blue pill world yes, but it is not necessary for all journeys, adventures or endeavors.

2. If you have the power and understanding of game, via the redpill, the PUA's don't understand why wouldn't you utilize it? Well, just because you have the power to game doesn't necessarily mean you have to use it. It is a personal choice when you want to excercise this tool and it provides a degree of freedom. Want to game your coworker today, but a month later want to go monk mode? Why not? Want to not bother with game and p4p? Why not?

3. Game is hard to translate to a long term investment (especially with relationships). Relationships are dynamic and as a result they change because people are able to change. People change due to learning and adjusting to what you are doing. On a cognitive level you can manipulate how people feel in the short term, but over the long haul human brains have evolved to eventually filter out manipulation and focus on key ideas. Holding frame over the long haul isn't a realistic proposition which is why it is a tool you can leverage once in a while. Game works because you are overloading the working memory of the mind. But once it is uploaded to the long term part of a brain a person can deconstruct it. This deconstruction of gaming means that even if you hold frame the jig is up.

Overall, I think that game is an integral part of redpill. However, it is indeed myopic to think it is a tool that can do it all. It is one of many tools from a tool box that you choose to utilize in certain, niche situations. Trying to use a hammer to solve all situations for example isn't a good idea.

Personally, I find that PUAs are those who misuse the Game...They are pussy-beggars who got access to something that they cannot fully utilize...

I see Game as a verbal and non-verbal manipulating and influencing tool that a man can use to get what he wants. You know how politicians can get large collectives to agree with them or disagree with them and do their bidding ? That is what I see Game as. If you want a fantasy equivalent, think of Game as Force Persuasion from Star Wars or Bard spells from D&D.

To use a tool with so much potential application to just get pussy...Is to do it a grave injustice...I would personally use Game to get accepted for jobs or get a raise in the workplace or get the boss in my pocket or to make that blue pill idiot acquaintance you have to do what you want him to do....

[BeijaFlor]

I have been noticing, more and more, a common flaw in these PUA-vs-MGTOW arguments. I see it as a matter of perspective - and of scale, or perhaps 'spectrum' would be a better explanation.

Imagine you are standing on a line that goes from red to blue. You turn one way, you're facing red; you turn the other way, you're facing blue. It's an either-or decision, apparently, isn't it?

Not necessarily. An outsider might see it as a spectrum of shades from red, to magenta, to purple, to violet, to blue. Or, who knows, it might be a cross-section of a rainbow, but we're fixated on the opposite ends. Red pill or blue pill. Mission or pussy. Loner or gregarious. Isolation or approval-from-others. Self-determined or other-determined.

Maybe the spectrum is an underlying truth that we're ignoring? Some men are hungrier for pussy than others. Some men are more comfortable without pussy than others. Some men are hungry for social validation; others are comfortable in their own company. Some men are more self-determined, others are more other-determined. Half-empty or half-full? Or half-arsed?

Does it really do us good to regard this as an either-or, on-off, quantum-state consideration? It appears to me that the spectrum is a more workable model, and one that's truer to what we see. I think it does me better to shrug off the PUAs and keep working toward my own interests.

[Mikediver]

I think that Rollo, and other PUA authors, should be told that most of us are well capable of being dancing monkeys. Many of us were naturally adept dancing monkeys, and some of us learned game to become better dancing monkeys. The difference between PUA and most MGTOW is that the MGTOW got tired of dancing. A lot of that is getting older and passing out of the fog of testosterone. Those bananas you get for dancing well just aren't worth it anymore. It could be the decrease in the perceived quality of the bananas, or it could be a decrease in the hunger of the monkey; but either way, in the end, the cost benefit shifts.

I look at PUA as a valuable path that many men will follow in their youth that leads inevitably to the enlightenment of MGTOW. Once you have had a certain number of experiences with women you just can’t help but learn their value. It takes some men longer than others but look at the stats; how many long term PUAs are out there? I am talking more than 10 years of intense active gaming and writing. The usual progression is they game/write for a decade then decide to settle down with one of the skanks (although they think their skank is different than all the others they have gamed), or they just fade into the distance and give up on Game. After their skank of choice slips them the shiv in divorce court they have their awakening (as have many of us). The disillusionment with women that comes from scoring mindless points for getting in the pants of sluts (no great challenge there) is inevitable and relentless.

[BeijaFlor]

I think that Rollo, and other PUA authors, should be told that most of us are well capable of being dancing monkeys. Many of us were naturally adept dancing monkeys, and some of us learned game to become better dancing monkeys. The difference between PUA and most MGTOW is that the MGTOW got tired of dancing. A lot of that is getting older and passing out of the fog of testosterone. Those bananas you get for dancing well just aren't worth it anymore. It could be the decrease in the perceived quality of the bananas, or it could be a decrease in the hunger of the monkey; but either way, in the end, the cost benefit shifts.

This gives us another spectrum, between "I'm sure the grapes were sour" and "The game isn't worth the candle."

[Azure Nomad]

Personally, I find that PUAs are those who misuse the Game...They are pussy-beggars who got access to something that they cannot fully utilize...

I see Game as a verbal and non-verbal manipulating and influencing tool that a man can use to get what he wants. You know how politicians can get large collectives to agree with them or disagree with them and do their bidding ? That is what I see Game as. If you want a fantasy equivalent, think of Game as Force Persuasion from Star Wars or Bard spells from D&D.

To use a tool with so much potential application to just get pussy...Is to do it a grave injustice...I would personally use Game to get accepted for jobs or get a raise in the workplace or get the boss in my pocket or to make that blue pill idiot acquaintance you have to do what you want him to do....

And the irony is that when game is used to achieve wealth, power and resources it is far more potent in attracting pussy than straight up gaming a woman using a cold approach. That is why I have noticed a shift within the PUA community where they are talking more about self improvement lately.

An example of guiding this new path forward uses David Deida's "Way of the Superior Man" as a guide.

[Octavian]

I differ with Tomassi on his broad idea that MGTOW implies some personal defect, but one thing he does get right is this-pure isolation from the Matrix isnt possible, whether we want it to be or not.

Much like how the residents of Zion in the Matrix trilogies still served the broader goals of the system despite not being part of it, so it goes here. I wont set foot past the doorsill of "Traditional Relationships" ever again, but im reminded with every conversation I have with friends and family that I will never be truly free of the Matrix on a macro level. On a personal level I am-but every time a fat girl eye fucks me when im on the treadmill, it makes the point clear .

Take our economy and political system into consideration, and its clear the only way a man could ever totally go his own way is to build a space vehicle for the Moon. Isolation is not only a bad idea paychologically, its also unachievable.

[Ace Francis]

After reading Beja's response I have to jump in without even reading the following ones.

Let me start by saying I am a fan of lots of what Rollo writes and even bought his book Rational Male. I think there is tons of red pill gems in his website.

That being said, I love the comments our mods made. I am in another manosphere site and a few of the married guys hate the red pill. Obviously they are threatened that the Disney script that they think they are living goes against their blue pill ways

I'll admit I've used the word spr grapes here and there about MGTOW. But looking at myself, I used to have an active dating life. But in the last few years I decided that I was better off being alone at times than settling for some woman who was beneath me if that was all that was available to date at that moment.

I never thought I'd be saying this, but now look down on married suckers who are ATMs to their women than even the TFL guys.

Rollo while full of great red pill essays on his website is married, you know is married. Not to say that married men cannot be MGTOWs. I know they can and are. It's just that in Rollo's case, it seems the obvious root in mischaracterizing what MGTOW allegedly is or isn't.

Thanks for adding your comments to the Rollo blog, Jagr and Beja. He is right about a lot of things regarding woman and blue pill saps and all. But not this time.

[Octavian]

After reading Beja's response I have to jump in without even reading the following ones.

Let me start by saying I am a fan of lots of what Rollo writes and even bought his book Rational Male. I think there is tons of red pill gems in his website.

That being said, I love the comments our mods made. I am in another manosphere site and a few of the married guys hate the red pill. Obviously they are threatened that the Disney script that they think they are living goes against their blue pill ways

I'll admit I've used the word spr grapes here and there about MGTOW. But looking at myself, I used to have an active dating life. But in the last few years I decided that I was better off being alone at times than settling for some woman who was beneath me if that was all that was available to date at that moment.

I never thought I'd be saying this, but now look down on married suckers who are ATMs to their women than even the TFL guys.

Rollo while full of great red pill essays on his website is married, you know is married. Not to say that married men cannot be MGTOWs. I know they can and are. It's just that in Rollo's case, it seems the obvious root in mischaracterizing what MGTOW allegedly is or isn't.

Thanks for adding your comments to the Rollo blog, Jagr and Beja. He is right about a lot of things regarding woman and blue pill saps and all. But not this time.

Theres no nice way to say the following.

Im trying to avoid starting some kind of intra-forum dispute of a personal nature as I do liek Rollo's voice on the subject of gender relations.But when youre in a relationship with a woman, "perpetual discontent" is your default state of mind.You dont have a choice,not if you want cupcake to be next to you the next morning.

There's certain laws you cant escape when interacting with women. One of them is coddling their material nature. As a man you always have to be faster, better,stronger, and yes richer then the man you were, be it ten seconds ago or ten years.

Stop to smell the philosophical and spiritual roses, and you might find girlfriend under the tree with Jody. Jody doesnt care about finding who he is, but he will make sure Cupcake lives in perpetual material comfort.

Trouble is, years of being run ragged like that for a man is like driving across the country with an oil leak. Eventually, no matter how strong, his engine of creativity sputters and dies under the continnual stress of watching for shit tests, holding his frame, shutting down Cupcake when she wants to do something asinine, yes dear lets buy that, no dear that's not a good idea....tell me again why you want to go to the lake?.....its a 24/7 job, and even after all of that you still cant be sure she's not fucking a guy the second you turn your back.

Good luck finding spiritual contentment that way. Its like reading a book on a live firing line...and youre downrange.

[BeijaFlor]

... When youre in a relationship with a woman, "perpetual discontent" is your default state of mind.You dont have a choice,not if you want cupcake to be next to you the next morning.

Stop to smell the philosophical and spiritual roses, and you might find girlfriend under the tree with Jody. Jody doesnt care about finding who he is, but he will make sure Cupcake lives in perpetual material comfort....

So here we find something I believe is a key personal question:

Which is more important to you - Cupcake's approval, or your own well-being?

And why?

[Inspector Callahan]

PUAs can’t seem to reconcile in their myopic minds this basic tenet of MGTOW philosophy -> We choose not to pursue women.

They just can’t fathom someone making that conscious choice. A person who does so must necessarily be some kind of isolationist hermit afraid of the light of day, in their mind. Nothing could be further from the truth. I choose not to pursue women for the same reason I don’t smoke, I don’t take illicit drugs, and I don’t drink a 16 ounce glass of Clorox bleach. I don’t deem any of these to be healthy. If they want to pursue the almighty vaginal orifice, accept the associated risks, and pay the inherent costs, then more power to them. I choose not to partake, thank you. Please don’t judge me in an inferior light for the choice I made.

[goldey]

God, I especially hate those PUA redditors on RedPill. They start a thread basically shaming MGTOW philosophy. And then you post a perfectly sound arguement, saying you wanna avoid women and it turns to the ultimate Alpha tournament. Jeez, you wanna avoid women, well you are such a sad case. You are so totally beta, if you are using dread game. My alphaness will totally steal yo' bitch. Like STFU. I get enough shit from women and life in general. Now you wanna be a random tough guy on the fucking internet, telling me I don't know myself?

[Octavian]

PUAs can’t seem to reconcile in their myopic minds this basic tenet of MGTOW philosophy -> We choose not to pursue women.

They just can’t fathom someone making that conscious choice. A person who does so must necessarily be some kind of isolationist hermit afraid of the light of day, in their mind. Nothing could be further from the truth. I choose not to pursue women for the same reason I don’t smoke, I don’t take illicit drugs, and I don’t drink a 16 ounce glass of Clorox bleach. I don’t deem any of these to be healthy. If they want to pursue the almighty vaginal orifice, accept the associated risks, and pay the inherent costs, then more power to them. I choose not to partake, thank you. Please don’t judge me in an inferior light for the choice I made.

Ill soon drop a blog post on the subject, but suffice it to say for most men its impossible to maintain a clear head when society all around is Advancing The Agenda.

[The_Joker]

The Feminist, governments, the church, parents etc etc . . . All want to make the Manosphere look unhealthy, dangerous, and basically paint it in a bad light in order to turn people off to the Red Pill. Remember when Elliot Rodger killed those people? Remember how quick the feminist blamed the Manosphere?

You will see nothing but negative articles about the Red Pill.