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  1. #1

    Not until the price is right

    I don't know why that popped into my head recently, regarding dating. But it means I'm not going to go exclusive until the price is right and I get what I want. Life has been throwing 5s and 6s at me, and I believe I am worth more. However, I am unable to get better at this stage. And that is what I want to change.

    So, my background. I was born in Johannesburg in South Africa, where I still live (any other South Africans here?). My dad was a big softie - tall and manly but also calm and (if I had to guess) not very confident. He died when I was 15 years old, of kidney cancer. My mother was domineering, emotional and difficult - I think she had my father wrapped around her finger. My father's sister told me later that my father would sometimes phone her after a weekend, in tears, because his wife lay in bed all weekend (depressed) and he didn't know what to do. She had an eating disorder and was also bipolar.

    My mother died when I was 22, of an accident or possibly suicide while visiting a friend in Brussels. She never got over the death of my father, despite the fact that I don't think she was an easy wife. My mother was an incredible person and a good mother, but she also did not tolerate any disrespect. She could be cruel, and we were not allowed to stand up to her. Years later, I resent not standing up to her. I resent not telling her to F*^% off. But I never did.

    Unfortunately for me, I grew up sensitive like my mother and introverted like my father. I never knew anything about women or how they should be treated. I remember my mother saying something to me like I should make the decisions regarding dates etc, but you know, it was too late. My mind did not work that way. I thought that by being nice to girls, they would like me. Is it fair to blame all of this on my mother? I don't know. Maybe I am just sensitive and introverted by nature.

    It doesn't help that I never really played sports as a kid. We moved from Johannesburg to a tiny farming community when I was just turning 6. I went to school there, and played a lot of sport. I did running, swimming, tennis, rugby/soccer - everything except cricket. But then we had to move, just before I turned 8. That devastated me and I don't think my parents ever really understood how hard it was for me to move cities again so soon. I didn't take up any sport in the new city - I told my parents that only kids who had been there since first grade were allowed to do sports. I didn't feel comfortable joining. They didn't push it and they didn't try to find out if there was something else the matter with me. As a result, I grew up with what was close to a phobia of physical exercise. I think it was only the fact that my dad pushed healthy eating that I didn't become overweight.

    It also doesn't (and didn't) help that I have a stutter/stammer, and have since birth. I remember being about 10 or 11 when I realized I was different to everybody else. I had something unique about me, something bad that nobody else had. If I had known that a stutter is caused by brain differences back then (or at least mine is), I would have freaked out. I guess I resent my stutter because of the inconvenience that it causes me, but it doesn't inhibit me socially. I don't know why, but it doesn't cause me any social anxiety. Maybe it was because my parents were tough on me and made me answer the phone, even though I really hated it. I still gave speeches in class and I still answered questions in class. I went to speech therapy, which helped as long as I went to speech therapy. These days, my fluency is not bad, better than some stutterers that I have heard. On good days, you would not know that I stutter.

    So I grew up feeling like an outcast, not playing sports, and associating with any outcasts who liked computer games or anything similar. School was easy for me, I got As without even trying, which did help. I was respected in high school, but not liked or popular. I wasn't fat, but not muscular either.

    The death of my father really set me back. It occurred in the middle of high school, and I dropped karate (which my parents had forced me to do for 3 years) immediately. My mom now had nobody to balance her out, so we had her psycho behaviour unbuffered by my father's natural calmness. I became heavily depressed in my final year of high school, often being unable to get out of bed at all. I had crushes on just about all of the girls at school, and of course none of them liked me back. I dated a girl who was a few years younger than me for a few weeks, and that was my first kiss. I think we kissed 5 times in 5 months.

    I went to a small town for university, which was great because it got me out of the house and away from Mom. I kissed a few girls in university, but never had sex and never dated anyone. I had crushes on girls - one girl in particular, Jenny. I gained a little weight, so I was overweight but not fat. No exercise and poor diet. I had zero self confidence and zero game. Zero everything actually. I kept on hoping that a girl would swoop in and love me for who I was. That Jenny, in particular, would realize that she loved me, after spending so much time with me. But she never did.

    I saw a psychologist in my final year at university because I was suffering from mild depression. I went through cognitive behavioural therapy, which was an eye opener for me. It didn't fix any of my dating problems, but it did fix a lot of other things. It started me on a path to fix some of the damage I'd incurred in my life.

    I moved to London, UK after university, and lived there for 3 years. I didn't kiss a single girl although I got friendzoned by at least two. I tried online dating and it was a miserable failure. I moved back to Johannesburg, which is where I am now.

    After moving back, I finally lost my virginity at age 26, to a woman who was 7 years older than me. We only did it the one time.

    I went back to online dating and started a relationship with a woman who was about the same age as me. It quickly became a sexual relationship, and she quickly wrapped me around her finger. She cut off sex pretty soon and ended up doing it on weekends to keep me happy. I later realized that I had completely lost her respect because I was like a puppy dog. Even when we were having sex, I didn't take control. I liked having her on top most of the time, because I knew she could orgasm that way. I didn't understand that she wanted me in control. And I treated her like a sex toy, which I'm not proud of. She was going through major depression at the time which I was not aware of, which is most of the reason why it ended. We started dating in June 2011 and ended it in about September 2011.

    I started my next relationship in March 2012. I didn't find J (not Jenny) attractive, but I dated her anyway. I don't know why. We were wholly unsuited to her, but I thought that maybe I could fall in love with her. I never did, and a few months later, I ended it. I was pretty honest with her. I still ended up doing things that I really didn't want to do, like hanging out with her family all weekend. Flip I hated that, I came to hate weekends because it would be another long event with her family!

    My next relationship, with K, started in August of 2012. She told me fairly early on that was dealing with depression and an eating disorder. Is that a white horse I see? You bet, I came charging in there, Mr Blue to the rescue! I'd beaten depression before, I'm sure I can help you with your depression. Wow. Pretty soon she was so dependent on me that she became suicidal at the thought of me going back to a full time job from March 2013 onwards (I was an entrepreneur at the time). We were one person for a while. The sex was amazing, it was crazy, we did it often and it was the best sex I have ever had (not that I have had much experience). I later realized it was part of her attempts to control me. We broke up in February of 2013 and I was broken for a while after that.

    I've been single since March 2013. I've been going on lots of dates, through online dating sites and tinder mostly, one or two from personal connections. But nothing is working. I don't get second dates, I don't get much interest. Only 6's and lower will swipe right to me on Tinder. Nothing higher.

    But everyone says I am amazing. My family and friends say, you are awesome, you just have to wait for the right one. Don't be impatient, she will come along and it will just work. They don't understand. I talk about how I want an attractive woman, and get accused of being shallow. Nevermind that their wives and girlfriends are all attractive, and they would not be wives and girlfriends if they were not attractive. I think it makes it worse, when everyone says you are amazing but single girls disagree. If everyone was more honest, and was like, "Dude, this is why you are single" that would be more helpful to me.

    So I started to almost resent myself for being sensitive and introverted instead of extroverted and brash. I'm more confident and outgoing than I used to be, but obviously this is not enough. I'm not getting the success I want, and I only have myself to blame. Sure, I do think that the way women select men is all kinds of messed up, but it's not something that is within my power to change. The only thing I can change is myself. It doesn't help to resent myself and it doesn't help to resent women.

    My positive attributes are that I am tall (1.86m, just over 6 foot), very intelligent (didn't really study for university or school), extremely ambitious (currently studying a graduate degree part time to get out of programming and into management), own a penthouse flat in a good area of Johannesburg, and said to be quite good looking. I would also classify myself as a leader, although not as strong as I would like to be. I'm a little overweight - I currently weigh something like 90kg, which I think is about 210 pounds or so.

    I've realized that I have a problem and now I need to fix it. That problem is me. I plan to invest in myself and change my habits and thought patterns. I've gone back to gym and am aiming to get more physical in general. I also want to do more outdoor activities in general, not just gym. So, tomorrow I have organized a group of friends to go hiking. I want to take up running more seriously and may even plan to do a marathon. A half marathon anyway. I also want to build muscle mass. I'm seeing a psychologist because I think there might be some damage relating to my mother that she may be able to help me with. Obviously she won't get any of the red pill stuff, but I think there could still be some value there. And I have purchased 4 books for my kindle - The Rational Male, Models by Mark Manson, the Mystery Method and No More Mr Nice Guy. Oh and I need to finish reading the 4 hour work week.

    I've deleted my tinder account, but I plan to go back to it in a month or two. I need some time to reflect, grow, and lose weight, but after that, I need to start learning game. I need to monitor my actions and words more closely. So I need practice at that, which is where tinder will come in.

    Having read that hierarchy thing (sorry not sure of proper term), I would say I am probably a gamma. Not even a beta.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated guys.

  2. #2
    Senior Member O.G.'s Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    Welcome to the board

    From what I read here the very last thing you need is a woman.

    I think you are really on the right path with focusing on improving yourself and your life.
    You should do these things for yourself. Because you want to.
    Not to make you more successful on dating sites.
    "People are always angry at anyone who chooses very individual standards for his life; because of the extraordinary treatment which that man grants to himself, they feel degraded, like ordinary beings."
    - Nietzsche


  3. #3

    Re: Not until the price is right

    Thanks.

    I think you are right, but I think it might take a while for me to process that. The problem is that I suppose I am now resentful because I feel that every other guy has had all the pussy he could ask for while growing up, while I have not. And getting any more for me is difficult. I know it doesnt help, but its almost like I want to make up for what I was denied in the past.

    But yes, you are completely right. There is personal growth that I need to do because it benefits every aspect of my life, not just dating. And in fact, defining myself in terms of myself and not in terms of how women see me will make me more attractive to women.

    For the past two years since I broke up with my ex, I have been moderately happy with life. But recently it just got to me, my lack of success.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Primus_Pilus's Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    I'll share something with you ....

    If you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
    If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
    But make allowance for their doubting too;
    If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
    Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
    Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
    And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

    If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
    If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
    If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same;
    If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
    Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
    Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
    And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

    If you can make one heap of all your winnings
    And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
    And lose, and start again at your beginnings
    And never breathe a word about your loss;
    If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
    To serve your turn long after they are gone,
    And so hold on when there is nothing in you
    Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

    If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
    Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
    If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
    If all men count with you, but none too much;
    If you can fill the unforgiving minute
    With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
    Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
    And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
    Note that at no point is woman mentioned anywhere in this one.

    Develop yourself, heal, follow what YOU want. And you'll be just fine.
    Good luck and welcome to the board.
    First date: A job interview in which a slot-c tries to determine a man's financial suitability in relation to its desire for children.
    Oxytocin, more dangerous than heroin.
    I am not going to sacrifice my freedom and wealth for your ideals.
    If she isn't fucking you like a porn star she is fucking someone else like one.

    Women, they're just a bag of bricks. All you gotta do is set them down. - Primus Milton

  5. #5
    Senior Member Eddie Willers's Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    ... I suppose I am now resentful because I feel that every other guy has had all the pussy he could ask for while growing up, while I have not. And getting any more for me is difficult. I know it doesnt help, but its almost like I want to make up for what I was denied in the past.
    I'm 50 and have felt like this most of my adult life - that someone else, somewhere else was getting more than I (who was getting none) and he didn't necessarily deserve it.

    Fuck 'em all - learn to like living in your own head, focus on self-improvement and making the best life you can for yourself without teh wimminz.
    A gun-toting, weed-smoking, gray-bearded redneck with a Masters - old and dangerous.

  6. #6
    Super Moderator Mr Wombat's Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    But everyone says I am amazing. My family and friends say, you are awesome, you just have to wait for the right one. Don't be impatient, she will come along and it will just work.
    That old lie! God, if I had the proverbial nickel for every time I was told that one… (What it means is "you would make a nice beta provider for some goddigger".)

    You know: I'm not getting from your intro that you are ready to GYOW, yet, in the sense of avoiding women. You want to improve yourself so as to rate a better quality of woman. Which is cool - there is a "game" subforum here. Welcome!
    Last edited by Mr Wombat; September 6, 2014 at 3:53 AM.

  7. #7
    Moderator Chairborne's Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    Welcome to the forum. My advice is to first get fit. Take every minute you spent dating and spend it on improving your fitness. It will help with depression. It will raise your self esteem. It will improve your opportunities with females, if you do decide to keep dating.

    Though I agree with Wombat - and I am going to be VERY BLUNT: if you got fitter and then started getting attention from women... And then you got laid by a hot woman at that point, you would be what I would call a "high risk" for "one-itis". By that I mean you would be at risk of clouded judgment regarding that woman's behaviour.

    No offense is meant - Some guys have been through the ringer with females to such a point they lost their kids, their homes, their jobs, and their livelihood. They're inoculated against women. Other dudes have ploughed so much quality vag that they are unlikely to fall for that hot one that fucks them. For these guys, casual sex isn't as emotionally risky. In the situation you've described I could see you getting fit and then falling for a gorgeous sociopath who sucks the life out of you and then moves on to her next tool.

    My advice remains get fit. But when women start paying attention to you (especially as your education comes to fruition and you're wealthier and fitter) remember that they were the very same females who wouldn't give you the time of day as of September 2014.
    Who's Chairborne? Office worker & Army Reservist, into electronic music, drummer in a jam band, table-top RPGs, bicycling, X-country skiing, biathlon & marksmanship, TV-free for 15 years.

  8. #8
    Senior Member VLazarusC's Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    Welcome to the forum lad, hope you'll enjoy your stay here.
    From what I've read, you've done rugby, right? As someone who lived in an Anglo community for 7 years (and still do for one more year, and this includes South Africans in the UAE), I wonder if you stuck with the sport: kept doing it even if you passed through really shitty moments in your life. For me I've started when I was 17 (20 right now), and even if until the season opens I don't play, I still do the training learned from the fitness lessons. As Chairborne mentioned before, getting fit is paramount, and you can take it from me, a fellow rugby player, that rugby is a great way to throw your sorrows and get fit fast. Back in my country (Romania), rugby is almost unheard of, even water polo gets more views than rugby, and to this day a lot of people there look weird at me when I tell them that I like rugby more than football; my country isn't that fanatic (eg. Brazil) about football, but everyone talks about it about as much as politics. I add to Chairborne's advice: if you do rugby, keep doing it; if you don't, start again, even if in the first 3-4 sessions you'd feel tired enough to be unable to go to your car.

    It is curious though how you had such lack of success at women in SA; I myself visited Joburg and Cape Town once with a friend who was a South African from school, and found it quite pleasant, with the exception of the thieves which were always the black people and were much better than the gypsies back in Europe. I even had to scare a few away from my friend's dad's property who were trying to jump the wall/fence with guns, quite frightening but it really put things into perspective how people take safety for granted in almost all of Europe. Besides these, I've seen that there are visibly more women than men in the country: my friend, besides his brother, were the only two guys out of a generation where their relatives had in total around 13 girls aged between 16-25. They were not too bad-looking either and they were quite comfortable with the idea to hang out with a foreigner, which was a noticeable thing for me because there I didn't carry the curse that was imposed over normal Romanians in Europe, by the dumb representatives of people from other countries, that Romanians = thieves = job-stealers = criminals. Even comparing with the women back in my country, South African white girls are pretty good looking (though some of them were hopeless wrecks neck-deep in drugs/drinking).

    In closing, try to discover what rugby can teach you, which is to be a strong and self-reliant person, for when you will discover strength within yourself, nothing and nobody can push you over.
    Cuiusvis hominis est errare; nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare. - Marcus Tullius Cicero

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  9. #9
    Senior Member Victor's Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    Quote Originally Posted by Primus_Pilus View Post
    I'll share something with you ....



    Note that at no point is woman mentioned anywhere in this one.

    Develop yourself, heal, follow what YOU want. And you'll be just fine.
    Good luck and welcome to the board.
    Extra bonus rep for fantastic Kipling quoting!
    Pain is unavoidable. Suffering is optional.

    "Love is for poets." -- Connor MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod

  10. #10

    Re: Not until the price is right

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wombat View Post
    You know: I'm not getting from your intro that you are ready to GYOW, yet, in the sense of avoiding women. You want to improve yourself so as to rate a better quality of woman. Which is cool - there is a "game" subforum here. Welcome!
    I think that is what it started out as, but after reading some of The Rational Male, I think I need to redefine my goals. More on that below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chairborne View Post
    Though I agree with Wombat - and I am going to be VERY BLUNT: if you got fitter and then started getting attention from women... And then you got laid by a hot woman at that point, you would be what I would call a "high risk" for "one-itis". By that I mean you would be at risk of clouded judgment regarding that woman's behaviour.
    Completely agree, in fact it worries me a little.

    It wasn't until I got about half way through The Rational Male that I realized how deeply programmed my preference for monogamy is. Even worse, as an atheist, it makes no sense. I don't believe in the existence of souls, so why should I believe in the existence of soul mates? Yet I did without even bothering to question it for pretty much my entire life.

    I'm not saying I'm cured, I'm definitely not. I'm just more aware of it now. I'm starting to think about what I really want instead of what I've been told I really want. As I said about my goals above, I'd been assuming for so long that monogamy was my goal. Now I realize that I need to think about what that goal really needs to be. For one thing, I need to have goals to improve myself for myself. For another, the concept of spinning plates is intriguing. The problem is, it goes against my beta programming (I know!). But I'll cross that bridge when I have gained some fitness.

    I agree on the fitness everybody. I need to step that up. I'm going to gym and I'm eating right, but I want to start partaking in a physical activity outside of gym. I got my friends together to do an 8km hike this weekend, the problem is that it is like herding cats and it won't happen again soon. So I need to find some kind of club to join, whether it be cycling, running, hiking, rugby or karate. I did karate for 3 years as a teen and got to black belt level.

    Rugby concerns me a little because the chances of injury are pretty high.

    I feel positive now, which is good. I suppose last week I was in a bit of a black hole. I had a problem but I had no idea what the problem was or how to fix it. Now I feel like I've been given an understanding into the nature of that problem and some things that I can work on to fix it.

    EDIT: Thanks for all the advice guys!

    EDIT 2: Books like The Rational Male should be compulsory reading for high school seniors. If I ever have a son, I'll make him read it when he turns 18. Hopefully by then I will have been able to teach him how things really work, instead of what society tells him.

  11. #11
    Senior Member GabrielKnight's Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    The problem is that I suppose I am now resentful because I feel that every other guy has had all the pussy he could ask for while growing up, while I have not. And getting any more for me is difficult. I know it doesnt help, but its almost like I want to make up for what I was denied in the past.
    And this is a big part of the problem. I can relate to that, because I also felt like that in my past. Like you, I was a late bloomer and I had my first ex when I was 25. (Luckily it was a woman who was very caring and understanding and not manipulative. And she was good looking...she looked a bit like the young Brigit Bardot. She was really one of the very few exceptions. And I don´t just say that because she was my first.)

    When you think that you missed out on something big, you are giving sex too much room in your life. I know, that this is very difficult because we are all sexual beings and we are hard-wired to look for a mating partner. And in our society, the percieved value of a man is also connected to his ability to get laid. At least this is the mainstream opinion.

    And there is the real problem: Basing your self-worth on your ability to get laid. This is an illusion and a scam!

    Let me tell you this: There are guys who can get pussy every weekend. Just because they look good or because they have convidence. This does NOT mean that they have a higher value then you. They just had different upbringing or they were lucky to be good looking and they might have an extroverted personality.

    Being raised to be anice guy, being introverted and stuttering is a recipe for failure with most women. Sad but true. Women are not attracted to your personality in most cases. They respond to certain behaviors. (Being confident and dominant, being entertaining and good looking and successful etc...). You can have a great personality and be highly intelligent and an overall good guy with high moral values....this will get you nowhere with women if they don´t feel attracted to you.

    The phrase: "There is a woman out there for you. Just wait and see and you will meet her!" is bullshit. Most men have to struggle and work hard to get women, some might never be able to attract a woman or only very few times in their life, especially with the high expectations of todays women, who think that they deserve Mister Perfect, even if they are below average. Only a small minority of men is able to get access to women easily just by who they are.

    Don´t resent who you are! Do not let society and women define who you are. This is part of their manipulation strategy.
    I am sure you have heard the term "I want a REAL man!" countless times from women. And of course THEY will define, what a real man is. Don´t fall for that! Only YOU can define what kind of a man you want to be . And a woman has no business telling you, what a real man is, because she has no fucking clue, what it means to be a man.

    I could go on for hours, but I guess, you get the point.

    All the best wishes.

    P.S. Please write here, whenever you feel insecure or whenever you have self-doubt. Being in the company of other men who understand what you are going through is important for your healing process.

  12. #12

    Re: Not until the price is right

    Quote Originally Posted by GabrielKnight View Post
    And this is a big part of the problem. I can relate to that, because I also felt like that in my past. Like you, I was a late bloomer and I had my first ex when I was 25. (Luckily it was a woman who was very caring and understanding and not manipulative. And she was good looking...she looked a bit like the young Brigit Bardot. She was really one of the very few exceptions. And I don´t just say that because she was my first.)

    When you think that you missed out on something big, you are giving sex too much room in your life. I know, that this is very difficult because we are all sexual beings and we are hard-wired to look for a mating partner. And in our society, the percieved value of a man is also connected to his ability to get laid. At least this is the mainstream opinion.

    And there is the real problem: Basing your self-worth on your ability to get laid. This is an illusion and a scam!
    I think it is both self esteem and missed experiences that gets to me.

    Self esteem because everybody says I am so great but every girl rejects me.

    Missed experiences because everyone around me seems to be having fun and being able to pick nice girls, and Mr Amazing here has trouble getting a 6.

    Being raised to be anice guy, being introverted and stuttering is a recipe for failure with most women. Sad but true. Women are not attracted to your personality in most cases. They respond to certain behaviors. (Being confident and dominant, being entertaining and good looking and successful etc...). You can have a great personality and be highly intelligent and an overall good guy with high moral values....this will get you nowhere with women if they don´t feel attracted to you.

    The phrase: "There is a woman out there for you. Just wait and see and you will meet her!" is bullshit. Most men have to struggle and work hard to get women, some might never be able to attract a woman or only very few times in their life, especially with the high expectations of todays women, who think that they deserve Mister Perfect, even if they are below average. Only a small minority of men is able to get access to women easily just by who they are.
    Yup, I know.

    Regarding the stutter, I dont think it would be a problem if I exhibited some dominant energy and confidence. Right now, having the combination of a stutter, introversion and no stance of dominance makes me look weak.

    But yeah, I think what amazes me is the crap we get fed about romantic love. About just be yourself and there is someone waiting for you. So many myths and outright falsehoods, and women perpetuate these themselves. I don't know why because it only partially benefits them. Sure, they want the beta provider eventually, but they also want that alpha male. There are now probably fewer alpha males due to so many being misled. So it doesnt make sense.

    I think what I've realized also is that struggling to get women is itself the problem. I need to struggle to make myself better, to make myself the best I can be.

    All this stuff that I have been fed my entire life has been wrong. But there are a lot of guys who get it instinctually, and they have no problem getting women. Those of us whose parents did not teach us how the world really works are at a real disadvantage.

    Regarding women's expectations, it reminds me of that OK Cupid study which showed that the bottom 80% of men in terms of attractiveness are essentially invisible to women. Right now, I am in that 80%.

    P.S. Please write here, whenever you feel insecure or whenever you have self-doubt. Being in the company of other men who understand what you are going through is important for your healing process.
    Thanks guys!

    I have shared my pains with my two older brothers, who are both married, and the problem is that neither of them get it. The one has called me shallow for wanting to date a woman I find attractive, and said I was being intolerant for refusing to date a woman who already had children. They both say I should just wait until this perfect lady drops out of the heavens for me.

    Which means, wait until this perfect lady has had her fill of penis and now wants a beta provider. Maybe when she is 35 and running out of options.

    I don't want that.

    I'm not sure what exactly I do want since this whole monogamy thing is still going through my head. That and I know I need to wean myself off basically defining myself in terms of how I relate to women. So, I need to stop letting my success with women, or lack thereof, affect me so much.

  13. #13
    Senior Member GabrielKnight's Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    I think it is both self esteem and missed experiences that gets to me.

    Self esteem because everybody says I am so great but every girl rejects me.
    You need to find self-esteem in yourself. The need for female approval is one of those things that women use to their advantage. This is why all those shaming tactics work so well ("You are not a real man!")

    And most women are not able to identify greatness in a man. They are like children who are only attracted to the guy who wears the brightest colors and makes the loudest noise.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    But yeah, I think what amazes me is the crap we get fed about romantic love. About just be yourself and there is someone waiting for you. So many myths and outright falsehoods, and women perpetuate these themselves. I don't know why because it only partially benefits them.
    Our culture is full of it. Open your eyes and you will start to see it everywhere. Commercials, comic books, movies, TV, books, music...

    And make no mistake: It does benefit women. Because it is a powerful drug that turns men into toys for women. Look at grown men....powerful men....who fall for a woman and make a fool out of themself.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    Sure, they want the beta provider eventually, but they also want that alpha male. There are now probably fewer alpha males due to so many being misled. So it doesnt make sense.
    You try to solve that puzzle with logic, but women are not logical. They are emotional. Think of it like a Zen Koan. They also don´t make any sense on a rational level.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    I think what I've realized also is that struggling to get women is itself the problem. I need to struggle to make myself better, to make myself the best I can be.
    You made a big leap forward, when you came to that conclusion. Playing the game is in itself the problem. Always try to become better. But for yourself. Never for a woman!

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    All this stuff that I have been fed my entire life has been wrong. But there are a lot of guys who get it instinctually, and they have no problem getting women. Those of us whose parents did not teach us how the world really works are at a real disadvantage.
    Yes. But you are lucky to have the internet at your age. When I was your age, nobody even talked about those issues and I was totally clueless. How different my life would have been, if the internet and forums like this existed back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    Regarding women's expectations, it reminds me of that OK Cupid study which showed that the bottom 80% of men in terms of attractiveness are essentially invisible to women. Right now, I am in that 80%.
    That is true. I like to think of it this way: When you go to a club or a bar, you see a room full of other guys. Some women just see an empty room because most men are just invisible to them. Hence: "Where are all the good men?" (They aren´t even lying. They really can´t see them because to them they are invisible)

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    Thanks guys!
    That´s what we are here for.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    I have shared my pains with my two older brothers, who are both married, and the problem is that neither of them get it. The one has called me shallow for wanting to date a woman I find attractive, and said I was being intolerant for refusing to date a woman who already had children. They both say I should just wait until this perfect lady drops out of the heavens for me.
    I know. I only have an uncle and two nieces...they are all blue pill and I pretty much lost contact with them because I am "different". The only one who shares my views is my younger brother. But he is struggling as well. That is just human. We are all human beings with emotions.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    Which means, wait until this perfect lady has had her fill of penis and now wants a beta provider. Maybe when she is 35 and running out of options.
    That is the plan!

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    I don't want that.
    Good man!

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    I'm not sure what exactly I do want since this whole monogamy thing is still going through my head. That and I know I need to wean myself off basically defining myself in terms of how I relate to women. So, I need to stop letting my success with women, or lack thereof, affect me so much.
    That´s the spirit! And it is easier said then done. Make no mistake: The programming in our culture is very strong and you get your daily dose of blue-pills every single day...but if you have learned to look through all that, the blue-pills turn into red-pills. (Maybe you remember those 3D pictures 10 or 15 years ago, where you had to stare at a picture with a pattern....and suddenly, a threedimensional figure popped out. But it only worked, if you knew, HOW to look at the pattern).

  14. #14

    Re: Not until the price is right

    Quote Originally Posted by GabrielKnight View Post
    And most women are not able to identify greatness in a man. They are like children who are only attracted to the guy who wears the brightest colors and makes the loudest noise.
    I'm very interested in why this is the case.

    Partially I think the problem is when you think of the ideal attributes of a modern person (man or women). Referring to personality only here, they are extroverted, possess free will, are not limited by their biology, and have a soul. The soul is what makes the decisions, not the body.

    I don't want to offend anybody who is religious here, but to my mind, the problem is that we are biological. Whether you believe we have souls or not, the problem is that clearly our biology is still a major influence on us, and nobody likes to admit it.

    Tell a woman she is moody because of her hormones and see what happens. That being said, tell a man that he is aggressive because of testosterone and that is fine, nobody will be offended.


    Yes. But you are lucky to have the internet at your age. When I was your age, nobody even talked about those issues and I was totally clueless. How different my life would have been, if the internet and forums like this existed back then.
    I also wonder how different I would be with a different childhood. Sure, it doesnt help me now, but I suppose I am curious whether it is nature or nurture that made me the way I am. One thing that strikes me as odd is that I think I have pretty high levels of testosterone. I'm pretty hairy, and I started development very early. I got facial hair when I was 11 and was shaving by 12. I'm extremely competitive. However, I also look to woman for approval and validation. I don't know, in fact I didn't even realize that I did until last night. Now that I know I do (or did), maybe I can change it.

    My best guess as to why I look to women for approval is that while growing up, I was mostly stressed and unhappy, and I suppose I thought if a woman loved me, it would show that I am in fact a worthy person. That I am someone special. So I suppose I always wanted that ego boost, that confidence boost. I think over time it became so ingrained that I didn't even realize I was doing it. And it is the complete opposite of how it should be.

    I know. I only have an uncle and two nieces...they are all blue pill and I pretty much lost contact with them because I am "different". The only one who shares my views is my younger brother. But he is struggling as well. That is just human. We are all human beings with emotions.
    I honestly think I'll have to keep this quiet. I think it would cause me to be alienated from most people I know.


    That´s the spirit! And it is easier said then done. Make no mistake: The programming in our culture is very strong and you get your daily dose of blue-pills every single day...but if you have learned to look through all that, the blue-pills turn into red-pills. (Maybe you remember those 3D pictures 10 or 15 years ago, where you had to stare at a picture with a pattern....and suddenly, a threedimensional figure popped out. But it only worked, if you knew, HOW to look at the pattern).
    I think it is going to be difficult but I feel positive about it. I think it is good to have a path to follow, even if you know that path is difficult. I didn't like feeling like a no-hope loser with nothing that I could do to fix the problem. But now I feel like there are some changes that I can make to my life that could help, and it is empowering.

    Yeah, I don't think I can go back. I just don't think I could forget all of this. The only thing that still worries me is that I enjoy some dating success but then get stuck in an LTR and lose the frame. I need to work on changing my mindset so that I can pass those shit tests and keep the frame.

  15. #15

    Re: Not until the price is right

    I don't know if I should post this here or whether I should start a new thread, but what do you guys think of psychotherapy?

    About 2 weeks ago I had a meltdown of sorts and decided to contact a psychologist to see if they could help me identify what was wrong with me and why I find it so difficult to have meaningful relationships with women. I saw the psychologist for the first time last week Tuesday, and we went over history and all that, and what the problem is.

    Then, this past weekend, I spent a lot of time reading the Rational Male and this website and it opened my eyes quite a lot. So I started to feel a lot better, thinking there was hope for me after all, and that there were some practical things that I could do to change myself. However, I did realize something about myself that I think is a major problem in my life and a major problem in my relationships with women.

    I seek approval and validation from people and from women in particular. I know, the most beta behaviour you can have!

    I'm sure it has a lot to do with my mother. My father was a soft, gentle giant with a great sense of humour. My mother was highly strung, jealous, controlling and insecure. She had an eating disorder and I think she was also bipolar. Long and short of it, we were not allowed to stand up to her. We were terrified of my mother but not of my father. She could be loving and fun but she could also turn nasty and cruel almost on a whim.

    I don't know if that was the only reason I sought approval and validation from women. I guess we learn how to relate to people from our parents though.

    My question is, do you guys think psychotherapy is necessary and helpful in my case? It was so deeply ingrained into me that I didn't even realize I was doing it. My worry is that I can read a red pill/MGTOW book, but that won't instantly cure me. I need to work at it. But then, therapy is not an instant cure either.

  16. #16
    Senior Member BeijaFlor's Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    You might talk it over with your psychologist ... especially that recognition that "seeking approval from women" is a major problem.

    The most important thing is to grow beyond "needing approval from others." Along with that, in my own opinion, is growing beyond "needing meaningful relationships with women."

    Let's be honest, women are not "meaningful" themselves, especially when it comes to "relationships." They pursue their emotional fulfillment, their gina-tingles. Any man who doesn't "excite" them isn't worthy of their favors ... though, just maybe, a well-off chump who's willing to trade favors for "approval" might be worth stringing along in the friend-zone. You know all about the friend-zone, don't you?

    Aside from the "yum" factor, the mating urge and the possibility of procreation, a woman's actual value to you is exactly the same as that of a man who's doing the exact same things with you, for you ... or to you. She may be a Princess, but if she's not your Princess, she's got no call on your time, trouble or resources.

    In fact, nobody - not woman, not man, not Society - has any call on your time, trouble or resources, other than that which you judge they've earned. It is not yours to live your life for another's sake ... although I think another quote from Atlas Shrugged would fit your situation even better:

    "Pride is the recognition of the fact that you are your own highest value and, like all of man’s values, it has to be earned.
    His own happiness is man’s only moral purpose, but only his own virtue can achieve it…Life is the reward of virtue- and happiness is the goal and the reward of life.

    "Happiness is a state of non-contradictory joy- a joy without penalty or guilt, a joy that does not clash with any of your values and does not work for your won destruction, not the joy of escaping from your mind, but using your mind’s fullest power.

    "Happiness is possible only to a rational man, the man who desires nothing but rational goals, seek nothing but rational values and finds his joy in nothing but rational actions.

    "The symbol of all relationships among such men, the moral symbol of respect for human beings, is the trade…A trader is a man who earns what he gets and does not give or take the undeserved."

    You are, you must be, you can only be, your own highest value. You earn your own self-respect, through your own virtue - through earning what you get. Yes, we all give-and-take, that's part of dealing with others; but you can learn to interact with others from a position of self-respect, as an equal, valuable in your own right, rather than as a supplicant for "approval."
    "The Red Pill is the start of the journey, not the end." - Chairborne

    "Our most dangerous enemies are men who have no loyalty to men." - William Noy

    "I am not going to sacrifice my freedom and wealth for your ideals." - Primus Pilus

    "If you can't be happy on you're own, you can't be happy -- full stop." - Wilfred

    My introduction: I Was MGTOW When MGTOW Wasn't Cool...

    My blog: Beyond The Sunset

  17. #17

    Re: Not until the price is right

    Yes, I have known the friend zone - intimately.

    I have finished reading the Rational Male and have now started reading No More Mr Nice Guy. I'm about 70% of the way through and I'm finding it very valuable so far. It really seems to apply to me, and explains a lot of the way that I feel, the actions that I do, the reasons behind them, how I came to be like I am, and what I can do about it. I do feel a lot more aware of my nice guy behaviour, so I am hoping that I can now work to change it.

    The book says that nice guys go through a phase in their childhood in which traumatic events cause them to think that being themselves is not okay. That they need to change, and that maybe if they could find the right way to do things and become perfect, that their lives could become smooth, happy and easy. They have a negative opinion of masculinity, and want to distance themselves from other men, thinking that women will like them if they are different to other guys by being "nice".

    They also tend to do things for other people as a way of getting their needs met. Instead of stating what their needs are, they do something, hoping to have the favour returned. When it isn't, they can get bitter.

    They often have unavailable or distant fathers and controlling mothers. This definitely applies to me - my mother was EXTREMELY domineering and controlling. After my father died, she became even worse.

    So a lot of the things in the book apply to me, although not all of them. I don't really characterize myself as manipulative, although I have been in the past. And I have also been controlling.

    It does explain a lot of my behaviour and the way that I think. The nice thing is that I am hopeful that I can change these behaviours, and become more assertive, masculine and confident. It will take work and time, but I am more than happy to devote that effort to improving myself.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Victor's Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    Good luck on your journey - I give you tremendous credit for putting in the effort to improve yourself. I need to do some of the same myself!
    Pain is unavoidable. Suffering is optional.

    "Love is for poets." -- Connor MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod

  19. #19

    Re: Not until the price is right

    Thanks Victor.

    So, as for an update, things are going well. I saw the psychologist twice before deciding to cancel it, for two reasons. The first is money - my medical aid will not pay for mental health expenses this year because I used all of my savings on my teeth. The second is that I am not quite convinced that she can really help. For one thing, when I said I wasn't sure that I want to get married anymore, her eyes nearly popped out of her head. You could see she was thinking "does not compute".

    I mean, in some things it could be of benefit having another person look into your childhood and your life. In our second session, I started to wonder whether my mother could have been called abusive. I suspect that a lot of people would see her as abusive. I also noticed that I was more emotional talking about my father than about my mother. I have more happy memories with my father. My mother was great when she was in a good mood, but she was bipolar. And she took it out on us. She was cruel and vindictive.

    I finished reading The Rational Male, No More Mr Nice Guy, and Models by Mark Manson. All good books with solid advice in them, and all made me think a lot about what I believed about myself, and about the world. No More Mr Nice Guy in particular was an eye opener because I realized how desperate for approval I was. I did (and do) so many things for approval. So there is still a lot of work that I need to do to correct that, and old habits are hard to change. I've shared my experiences with my brothers too, and asked that they read No More Mr Nice Guy. I don't think either of them will ever be MGTOWs or red pills, but at least I would like them to develop more confidence in their relationships with others. And to realize the damage that our mother did to us.

    I've done more physical exercise in the last 3 weeks than I have in my entire life. I bought a dumbell set, which I use at home, and I go to the gym for cardio. I also take part in a 5km run on weekends. I changed my diet just before starting this journey, drastically reducing the sugar that I consume, and that I'm still carrying on with that. I haven't cut out carbs completely, I just eat a lot less of them, and especially a lot less sugar. I don't add sugar to coffee or tea, and I only eat chocolate and other sweet things on weekends. It used to be normal for me to eat something sweet when I got home from work. Now I snack on nuts instead (unsalted).

    The combination of much more physical exercise and the feeling of hope knowing that you are empowered to change your life has improved my mood quite a bit. I'm frequently happy. I suppose before starting all of this, there was this big black box of things that I didn't understand. I wasn't happy and I didn't understand why. Now I'm starting to look into that box, starting to understand how it works and where it all came from. I've realized that the upbringing that I received at the hands of my mother has had a massive negative effect on me.

    It's not that it is all easy and I'm suddenly transformed into an alpha male. I'm investing in myself a lot more than I ever have, but I suppose there is also a bit of residual bitterness that I feel. What if I had been brought up in a different home? I'm very tall, have an athletic build, am very intelligent, said to be good looking, and can be charismatic when I want to be. What could I have been if my father had not died? What could I have been if my father had been strong enough to stand up to my mother? I know it is pointless to ask, since the past is the past, but I do wonder. Could I have been an alpha male? I don't know if there is a correlation between testosterone and alpha male-ness, but I think I have extremely high levels of testosterone naturally. I started shaving at age 12 and am pretty hairy now. I think the high amount of testosterone is why I am so tall, and I also think it is why I stutter (high levels of testosterone during my mother's pregnancy affected my brain. This is my wholly unproven and untested hypothesis but explains why far more men stutter than women). This high testosterone makes me naturally extremely competitive and somewhat aggressive. It is only recently I think that I have been coming to terms with being aggressive and competitive. I think I have tried to suppress these two traits my entire life.

    I'm also trying to change the way I think about men and masculinity. I was one of those guys who tried to be different to get the girls. I'm not like those other guys, I used to say. I won't cheat on you, look at other women, get into fights, or anything like that. So now I've realized it is okay and in fact healthy to be male. I want to become more manly I suppose.

  20. #20
    Senior Member BeijaFlor's Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    Good progress, MrBlue. Congratulations.

    Dropping the psychologist is a good move, especially a woman psychologist. Her version of "help" would likely have been re-education and reprogramming, to get you back in line with Society's expectations and the feminist model of proper male compliance. It sounds like you learned more about yourself from the books, and from honest self-examination ... for example, recognizing you were "desperate for approval" is the first step to shaking off that addiction to approval.

    I think "approval" is the gateway drug to making a man into a mangina. We literally get that addiction 'cum lacte,' as the Romans said - with our mother's milk. Approval gets tied up with your perception of your mother's love, and when she withholds her approval, that feels like a threat to your survival! That's a powerful control mechanism; we can be goaded into all sorts of things, benefiting others to our own detriment, by the implied withdrawal of approval if we don't "man up." Things like marriage.

    (On the other hand, our desire for approval is a strong civilizing force in a healthy society. A parent's approval, a teacher's approval, is a strong incentive for us to "do better," to strive, to achieve. That goes on into our adulthood, when our friends' approval, our team's approval, Society's approval, urge us to do what's needed, to do our best, to succeed. The danger is when you tie up your self-esteem with whether-or-not you're getting "the right kind of approval" from "the right source" ... most notably, approval from a Significant Other, to whom you've entrusted your puppet-strings. In today's society, there lies great danger.)

    It sounds to me as though you're learning that you don't have to depend on others' approval. You're doing things to improve your health and well-being, for YOUR OWN sake - that's valuable. You can feel proud of yourself - you can approve of yourself - it's a basis for healthy self-esteem. (See where I'm going with this?) And mastering that approval-addiction, freeing yourself from tneeding approval from others, is a major part of Going Your Own Way.
    "The Red Pill is the start of the journey, not the end." - Chairborne

    "Our most dangerous enemies are men who have no loyalty to men." - William Noy

    "I am not going to sacrifice my freedom and wealth for your ideals." - Primus Pilus

    "If you can't be happy on you're own, you can't be happy -- full stop." - Wilfred

    My introduction: I Was MGTOW When MGTOW Wasn't Cool...

    My blog: Beyond The Sunset


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