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  1. #41
    Senior Member Victor's Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    My advice for you, sir -- feel free to take it or leave it as you like:

    Introversion isn't a "problem" or something caused by how you grow up. Testing seems to indicate that it's part of your genetics, although slightly influence by 'nurture'.

    What you need to decide is what you want out of life. Once you've decided that -- what's your goal, or what's missing for you -- then give thought to how the introverted thinking strengths can help you to reach those goals.

    If what you really want is to be the life of the party -- then go ahead and try it, even if it feels odd. True friends will make fun of you later, but won't stop being your friends. If it turns out you like it, you've learned something. If you don't like it, then you've learned something too -- and can decide what you want to be or want to try next.

    I've found a great many introverted thinkers who have very low opinions of alcohol consumption -- myself included. I basically only drink moderately and in social situations, except for once or twice a year when I'm comfortable with very close friends and just let it all hang out!
    Pain is unavoidable. Suffering is optional.

    "Love is for poets." -- Connor MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod

  2. #42

    Re: Not until the price is right

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlue View Post
    I've got the Rational Male and have read it - it is great. Started reading Mystery Method but never finished it - that will be holiday reading for me.

    I see from the thread on the Meyers-Briggs type indicator test that a lot of the people on this forum are INTJs. I think I am too. I wonder if we are similar in other ways?

    On Monday night, I was at a party. Tuesday was a public holiday, so we could go wild. Everyone got drunk and was having a good time, I had a few but was in a sober state of mind. I realized that my friends have a bond with each other that I am unable to have with them. I feel like I'm unable to let go the way that they do. Unable to just be silly and have a good time. I am getting really over their idea of partying - dancing and drinking. I like drinking and socializing but am getting really tired of drinking to excess. I may give up alcohol almost completely. The only reason I drink most of the time is the social pressure I feel.

    I guess I am maybe a little disappointed that... I've made some strides in conquering my problems and fears. I've recognized the problems I have with relationships due to my mother, I'm working towards solving them. But even if I solve that, I'll still be in my own little bubble. I don't know how or even if I could ever solve that.

    Should I just accept that I am a loner and get on with it? Find people who appreciate me for who I am? It is such a fundamental part of me that I don't know if I would even be able to change it. The problem is, human society does not like individuals like me. I feel so limited in my potential - I could be so much more, and achieve so much more, if only I wasn't standing in the way. If only I was an extrovert and not an introvert, socialising would be much easier for me.

    I don't know many people that are the way I am. One of my uncles is - he is the kind to sneak off early when there is a party, and doesn't like strangers too much. Yet he is very successful and has been happily married for years (definitely not red pill but not beta either).

    Do you guys think the fact that the last of my parents died when I was 22 has something to do with it? Nobody I know has lost both of their parents. I don't think any of my friends understand what it is like. My brothers and I have no backup. Your parents are normally the people who will catch you no matter what. We don't have that safety net - we are tight rope walkers without a rope. But still, I think I was like this before they died.

    Sure, I have other positive attributes. But this is the one negative attribute that I don't know if I can work to overcome. I can work hard to get a better degree and job, and I can work hard to not be so beta all the time, and I can improve my body, but I don't think I'm able to change from introvert to extrovert. And it saddens me because I feel isolated all the time.

    I generally hate dancing (especially when combined with alcohol) because I tune out. I stop paying attention to the people around me and instead my mind goes into overdrive. Either I start overthinking any social interaction, or I start to philosophise, or think about something scientific or mathematical.
    Your very insightful text reminded me a lot about how I felt at some time in my life.

    From my experience I can only advice one thing that I consider really important:

    Booze can overcome introversion for some short time but the price-tag is enormous and not worth it.
    Fighting introversion with alcohol killed my father in his 40is, it killed a lot of men in my family way before their time.
    Basically the image of men in my family was: "Very smart - but they all killed themselves with the drink"

    That is why I drank my last beer in 1998 and have not touched booze ever since, because I had an really bad example of a train wreck in my home.
    And I was trying hard to drown my introversion when I was 17 or so because I felt really awkward and unconnected with people.

    I still feel totally unconnected in social settings but I can play over it and have developed my little "script".

    Today I see social interaction I can not avoid just as I see holding presentations to coworkers or customers or hanging out at our expos.

    I have prepared my little script, I have run trough it multiple times in my mind .. I am here and I am here to sell.
    Nobody today would remotely consider me awkward or socially unapt ... because I "learnt" the interactions even though I would prefer to do something else, like reading or tinkering in my workshop.

    People wonder why I do not go out more though, because they have no clue about what is going on inside of me.

    I also noticed one thing in the last years:
    Extrovert people my age, when friendships and number of people go down because everybody has to work, take care of family, has stuff and business to do, suffer from a lack of connection and really admire self-sufficient people that have no need to connect, people that do their own thing on their own.

    The same people they made fun of in their youth are now way more respected as they do not have the weakness of herd mentality.

    Another thing I realized: Extrovert people with dozens of friends lack many practical skills later in life.
    Because there was always somebody they hang out with that could fix a leaking pipe or repair something.
    And keeping "in contact" takes a shit load of time out of your life.

    Introverts ?
    Well, no friends and no money in your youth very likely means that you have to figure out stuff on your own.

  3. #43

    Re: Not until the price is right

    Thanks for the kind and insightful post LuckyAustrian.

    I'm keeping this thread alive because honestly, it is cathartic for me to have a place to share some of my thoughts on these matters. My family would just not understand, and I'm not ready to tell them that there is a definite chance that I may never get married (feels like 50/50 at this stage).

    I spent the holiday at the coast with family, and stayed with my cousin and her family. I love my cousin - she is really great. I get on well with her husband too. The problem is, I'm starting to wonder if my cousin has the same parenting style as my mother. She has a huge temper and often loses it. What I don't like about the way she loses her temper is that it feels personal. Her kids (one 11 year old girl and one 9 year old boy) are generally fine, I guess I'm more worried about the boy. His father is a good positive role model, and does stand up to his wife. In fact, he is a lot rougher and more upfront than I am - more of a man's man. Maybe it just reminds me a little too much of my childhood, and that scares me a little. Funnily enough, my cousin's son and I are alike in a few ways - we are both introverts, I can see he also has an active imagination, and he plays with Lego a lot (I did too). His father is an extrovert. That being said, he doesn't seem to be scared of his mother, while I was petrified of mine, so perhaps he is okay. Different families deal with conflict differently, and perhaps it just doesn't bother them as much as it bothers me.

    The more I think about the modern dating scene, the more fucked up I think it is. The way I see it, from a female point of view, there are two kinds of attraction - let's call them Type A and Type B. Type A is the I want to tear your clothes off and mount you right here kind. Type B is the I want you to provide for me and my children - even if you are not the father. Type A is honest because is pure attraction between two individuals. Type B is more of an exchange - her body for your resources. Unsurprisingly, as soon as Type B is more prevalent than Type A, you start getting cases where sex is rationed out if you are a good boy. This is because she will only ration out sex when the exchange suits her. She controls the sex, because the attraction she feels for you is almost all about what you provide for her. Stop being a good boy, and the sex dries up, because she isn't really attracted to you. She doesn't really want to jump your bones, she doesn't want you to fuck her on the coffee table in front of everyone. She just doesn't feel that animal attraction for you. So, Type B attraction will have to do, and that means you get sex when you are good.

    Sure, at the beginning of a relationship, things are more spontaneous and she might even feel Type A attraction towards you. Not in all cases, but in some. In some cases, it is pure Type B attraction all the way - she has hooked herself a meal ticket, and she knows it. In some, she betaizes you and eventually that Type A attraction falls away.

    I know everyone alive wants someone to be attracted to us via Type A and not Type B attraction - that goes without saying. But the super duper fucked up thing about this is that Type B is by far the most common. Post wall single mom found herself a "nice guy" after taking endless loads from frat boys? Type B. Late 20's cheerleader finds a rich banker just before the wall? Some Type A initially because he has status, but mostly B. Pass around party girl (PAPG), who starred in many home movies, finds herself a sexually inexperienced, nice, nerdy guy? Type B all the way.

    In each of these cases, the girl is with the guy not because she finds HIM attractive, but because she finds the things that he can do and provide for her attractive. If the only girl I can find is one who will at some point feel mostly Type B attractiveness for me, I will never get married and be quite happy with my decision. I do not want to be meal ticket. I do not want to be solely a provider. I don't mind providing, but providing must be the side product of the relationship and not the objective of it. In other words, there must be a powerful mutual attraction that cements our relationship, and it just so happens that I can provide for her.

    Am I asking for too much? Probably. Heck, inevitably her looks will fade before mine, so I won't be attracted to her anymore. If all that is left of our relationship is Type B attraction, then it will be very sour indeed. But, if the relationship was never about Type B attraction in the first place, then perhaps it could survive.

    Another thing I have been thinking about is NAWALT. Or at least, a specific application of it. I was reading through Mystery Method when something caught my eye - the fact that the MM is designed to help you pick out women who are rated 8-10 on the hotness scale. And I started to wonder - maybe women who are rated 8-10 are just more trouble than they are worth, and I would be better off going for a woman who is a maximum of 7.5?

    My thinking is that perhaps (and maybe this is wishful thinking) a 7.5 or lower would be less full of shit and less full of mindgames than the really hot ones?

    I've realized that the type of girls I am attracted to are the high flying (ie dress expensively and have a good career) hotties. I'm starting to think this could be VERY self destructive, and that perhaps I should go for a girl who prefers the simpler things in life. That being said, my ex girlfriend preferred the simpler things in life and she was also crazy.

  4. #44

    Re: Not until the price is right

    Excuse the double post but I forgot something I wanted to add.

    I watched A Million Ways to Die in the West recently, and I found it quite depressing. Perhaps I should say trigger alert to other men watching this?

    The movie has two of the most whipped beta men I have ever seen in it. The main character tries to do everything he can to get his girlfriend to love him, and fails. He is, quite simply, a pussy. The main character's friend is literally dating a prostitute, and okay with the fact she sleeps with other men and not him.

    Anyway, the main problem I have with the movie is that the main character (Albert) get's dumped by his girlfriend Louise because he is too much of a pussy. He befriends newcomer Anna, while still trying to get Louise back. Louise tells him what a catch he is and how Louise does not know what he is missing - what a nice guy she is. I seem to remember her saying something about a girl needing to go through a few assholes to realize she needs a nice guy. Revisit what I said about Type A and Type B attraction above.

    In any case, what gets me about the above is that every single woman watching - without fail - will know in her heart that it is a lot of bullshit. Women are simply not attracted to pussies - they already have one. Nothing about Albert is attractive - he has no social status, no money, poor career prospects, is not a leader, is not tough, is not manly, is not muscular. The things that Anna says make Albert attractive are... well hogwash. And every woman watching would know it. The things Anna lists may qualify for Type B attraction, but not Type A, which is the only honest kind.

    The men however, do not. Too many men think that being nice to a girl and showing them "what a great guy you are" will get you laid or a relationship. It will not. Well, maybe a relationship with a post wall single mom, but nothing else. It is misleading to men. If I had seen this movie 10 years ago, heck 1 year ago, I would have lapped it up. It makes me angry that this is what is peddled to men today.

    What happens in the end? Louise realizes what she is missing and wants Albert back, who rejects her because he know has Anna, who is hotter. Anna goes for Albert after her marriage with her asshole husband goes sour. She finds herself a nice guy who can provide for her.

    Am I taking a comedy movie too seriously? Sadly, I don't think I am. Many a true word has been said in jest.

    Stardust is another simply romantic drama with a much more serious tone, and it has a very similar romance triangle. Nice guy loser wants hot girl, hot girl rejects nice guy loser in favour of guy with more social status. Newcomer falls in love with nice guy loser with literally nothing to offer her. Nice guy loser realizes newcomer is better than hot girl (who is "shallow" and "does not appreciate a nice guy"). There, I have condensed both movies to one paragraph.

    These are the lies we are feeding to young people.

    (Mods let me know if this post should be a separate thread or anything)

  5. #45

    Re: Not until the price is right

    So, I'm growing a beard.

    For two reasons. The first reason is that the other guys in my team decided to grow beards, so it sort of became a team badge. I started growing mine last week. The second reason is to do with my dad - this year was the 15th anniversary of his death, and he always had a beard. I have some photos of him when he was in his twenties, and he even has a beard in those. I don't really resemble my father much, apart from my height and possibly my voice. My older brother looks a lot like him.

    Anyway, its funny that until now, I had never considered growing facial hair. I suppose I considered it unattractive. I thought girls would not like me if I had a beard. Yeah, I know, I was wrong to even care! Also if I had to guess, I think it might have had something to do with me not fully accepting my masculine identity until recently, so of course any facial hair would be a bad thing.

    In my continuing dating experiments, I am keen to see if a beard photo will get me more or less hits than unshaven. I'll let you guys know the results.

    Other than that, I'm carrying on with exercising and dieting. I slipped up towards the end of last year, so I lost some progress. It is funny how resilient body fat can be!

    EDIT: There was something else that I wanted to add, that has been bothering me.

    My last ex girlfriend and I broke up in February of 2013. I think some of the story is on the first page. Basically, she had major issues, probably a personality disorder, which made her highly unstable and led to us breaking up. She wasn't abusive, but I came to realize that she was a lot more manipulative than I thought she was.

    In any case, what concerns me, is this. I do think of her, but only when I am horny. We had an amazing sex life, which I attribute in part to her lying to me in order to reel me in. I don't know how much of it was fake and how much of it was real, but it is safe to assume that she basically gave me whatever I wanted. So we got into some light fetish activity. I'm... maybe a little obsessed with that fetish now? Maybe obsessed is too strong, but it still turns me on a lot.

    So sometimes, when I get horny, I think of her, and then I think about contacting her again. And I did actually contact her again in June of 2013. We were planning to get back together. Had sex once, realized I felt nothing for her, and broke it off again.

    I almost invent excuses to contact her again. Like, telling myself that I should write her an email telling her that I know she lied to me about the sex. What good would it do? Nothing! What do I want from her? Well, besides sex, nothing! What I mean is, I miss the sex but I don't want to contact her, because I don't think the sex would be worth the risk (and the risk is high).

    Things she lied about? The most obvious one is orgasms, which by itself is not a big deal. But what sticks out to me is that one day I asked her if she had ever faked any, and she got super upset. Like, so you faked an orgasm, not the end of the world!

    The other things that I figured out that she lied about requires me to tell you a bit about the fetish. The fetish was basically around me cumming inside her, keeping my cum inside her, and knowing that my sperm was inside her. Not actually getting her pregnant - we agreed that she would get an abortion if that happened, luckily we never had to test that. She was on the injection while we dated, although she planned to get a copper IUD as soon as she got her next period, which did not come while we were dating.

    In any case, after sex she would insert these Ben Wa balls that I gave her, to keep the cum in. It was my idea and I gave them to her. They have a little loop that hangs out to aid in retrieval. She would tell me that she would keep them in her, and thus my cum, for hours after sex. What I eventually realized is that urinating with those balls inside you would be difficult because not only could they possibly interfere with... um... flow, but she would have been peeing all over that retrieval loop which I am not sure she would have liked. Okay, not a smoking gun, but still. So, I think it is unlikely that she kept them in her anywhere near as long as she said she did.

    But the next part I am pretty sure she lied about. I also bought her a cervical cap for the same reason as the Ben Wa balls. Did I mention I am stupid? Anyway, the plan was the same, but we never used the cervical cap because she worried that it would get lost. Here is the thing. Not only was she a biology student, meaning she would know fullwell that it would be impossible to lose something as big as a cervical cap inside a vagina, but she used to use a cervical cap when she was having sex with some other guy in the past. She had no problems using one then! Now, she may have been right to not be keen. Heck, it was probably a very stupid idea. But she lied instead of telling me thought it was a stupid idea and she wasn't comfortable with it.

    The other cases where I know she lied mostly have to do with when we tried to get back together. She flipped out when I told her I had decided I didn't want to be with her.
    Last edited by MrBlue; January 22, 2015 at 10:57 AM.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Eiji's Avatar
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    Re: Not until the price is right

    wisdom boost......
    "if you have to ask the price, you cant afford it....."
    "I live in freedom, under my own flag." - Captain Harlock

    "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C Clarke

    "Who's the more foolish? The Fool? Or the Fool who follows him?" - Obi-wan "Ben" Kenobi

    "In servitutem redigi non recuso" - Latin (translates to "I refuse to be dominated.")


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