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  1. #41
    Moderator Thomas Covenant's Avatar
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    Re: Select your Type

    Wisdom, the whole point in having a ghost section is so that guys like you are probably recognised and valued.

    I must just be on a different wavelength to a lot of you guys, because I can only see how it could improve things.
    I work in financial planning. I am interested in metal (all kinds), miniature painting and PC gaming. I live in Scotland.

  2. #42
    Senior Member YourTipOfTheDay's Avatar
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    Re: Select your Type

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Covenant View Post
    I must just be on a different wavelength to a lot of you guys, because I can only see how it could improve things.
    Hm. I don't really care as long as I can change the type as it suits the current status of my life. I'm putting it at Ghost for now but I'm sure I will be switching it to Bachelor in a few months, no doubt.

  3. #43

    Re: Select your Type

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Covenant View Post
    I must just be on a different wavelength to a lot of you guys, because I can only see how it could improve things.
    And others can see how it would/could (have the potential) to drag things down.

    ----------

    Separately and Generally...

    As far as all of this self selection stuff has come about...
    What's next? Our favorite color? Do we get to pick something from the RGB scale too so it's solely our own special color or will we be subjugated to the color wheel? Dripping sarcasm, but what other self identifications do we need to make? The EEOC has their list. Does MGTOW need a self identification list too?

    I'll point something else out about this site that some may find off putting for me to bring up. There is a definitive consensus of self improvement and moving on or preferably here 'having already moved on'. That's fine, but some men are not at that stage of things and this would obviously not be the site for them. I'm well past the anger stage, but there are many who are not and if this site is clear, it wants MGTOW in the later portions or preferably past the stages of grief. As we all know, one can not just tell people to move on and expect them to be able to. It doesn't work like that.

    And too, there are some things one never fully heals from and gets over - to this, I will point to parental alienation of fathers. Not all children who grow up 'come around' or are willing to admit their own choices and mistakes (especially older children who bought into obvious lies). Some wounds you simply put a bandage over but they never fully heal. With time, pain may fade as you get used to it being a part of you, but other events can rip off that bandage leaving the original wound still there.

    In that respect and others, this site is not a resource for those who need to vent, work out their anger and frustration, or simply be able to share on a level that others here would likely find less 'valuable' since those who have not moved on are actually less welcome here than those who have. Those who are 'upset' or 'angry' would need to find another space.

    Say that is not the case, but the culture here would prefer for men who have 'moved on' and 'gotten over it'. All I am saying is that some men don't get over certain things, and precluding the site to 'the post stages of grief' and 'good times' potentially eliminates many who might otherwise want to find a space to join because the obvious preference here shy's away form those who are still upset or angry and working through things.

    Why the criticism?

    Because this board, and others out there, can not be all things to all men. It can't and it won't. Period. This place has a different culture than HQ. HQ and this place have a different feel than the old forum which spawned these, and so forth.

    Do what you do best here, but understand, what is best here is not best for everyone else - current members or potential ones.

  4. #44
    Moderator Thomas Covenant's Avatar
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    Re: Select your Type

    Well Demosthenes, without being too flippant, the "G" in MGTOW stands for going, i.e not being stuck in one place, so I like how Jagr and the mods like to encourage guys to get beyond the venting and the anger and on to a more positive stage.

    What they are explicitly not doing, is telling guys what that stage should look like. By having the range of classifications, it makes it plain that ghost is as good as bachelor etc. This gets around the old tired arguments of MRA versus MGTOW versus ghost etc.

    As far as all of this self selection stuff has come about...
    What's next? Our favorite color? Do we get to pick something from the RGB scale too so it's solely our own special color or will we be subjugated to the color wheel? Dripping sarcasm,
    Why the sarcasm? Why are you so intent on proving Jagr's point while trying to counsel against it?

    It has been said that we are able to robustly debate ideas here as things are, but I haven't seen as much rational debate on this thread as knee-jerk emotionalism.
    I work in financial planning. I am interested in metal (all kinds), miniature painting and PC gaming. I live in Scotland.

  5. #45

    Re: Select your Type

    Why the sarcasm? Why are you so intent on proving Jagr's point while trying to counsel against it?
    I was waiting for that... self selection doesn't prove any point. Maybe you think it does. I do not.

    It has been said that we are able to robustly debate ideas here as things are, but I haven't seen as much rational debate on this thread as knee-jerk emotionalism.
    And that you perceive it that way speaks volumes. I've seen those willing to accept the change out right. Fine. And those who haven't agreed have not seemed irrational, or knee jerk to me. Nice way to throw in emotionalism there as well.

    What they are explicitly not doing, is telling guys what that stage should look like.
    That doesn't rationalize these classifications, or qualify them. It's more like face-booking the site with a - what color do you like, what's your favorite topping on hamburgers' profile junk. Is not being profiled or expecting to profile ourselves a problem?

    By having the range of classifications, it makes it plain that ghost is as good as bachelor etc. This gets around the old tired arguments of MRA versus MGTOW versus ghost etc.
    Really? We need a classification system with some validation thrown in that this is as good as that? It gets 'around' arguments? How does it do that? How bout we move into politics next, or religion? Making everyone classify themselves in those contexts might 'bring us all together too'... which is a laugh.

    While you can claim my statement(s) prove your point, it could be said that you assist in proving mine.

    We disagree. That's fine. But at least I'm not looking at your profile and going 'oh, your self classified as this, that must be why you said something X way'.
    Last edited by Demosthenes; August 1, 2015 at 5:26 PM.

  6. #46
    Moderator Thomas Covenant's Avatar
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    Re: Select your Type

    And that you perceive it that way speaks volumes. I've seen those willing to accept the change out right. Fine. And those who haven;t agreed have not seemed irrational, or knee jerk to me. Nice way to throw in emotionalism there as well.
    Well I've heard that's it's divisive, and that it assists our "enemies", whoever they are. What I haven't seen, is an explanation as to why it is divisive. You explained that guys that are still angry need somewhere to go, and I read that with interest, but that doesn't explain why it's divisive. So, could you explain what's divisive about it? As soon as I get a convincing explanation as to why it's divisive, I'll happily rescind my "knee-jerk" comment.

    Really? We need a classification system with some validation thrown in that this is as good as that? It gets 'around' arguments? How does it do that?
    It seems we do Demosthenes. We are different here, like it or not. And I know it doesn't salve the ego, but we are not all super special unique individuals that can't be defined. We do largely fall into the three broad criteria (obviously this changes from time to time). Personally, I find the whole merits of MRA versus "let it burn" a bit of a drag, and having the classifications lets people know early on where someone stands. I wouldn't use the term "validation" (and you say I used loaded terms!) I would call it recognition. It's like a formal statement saying that the folks who are on more of a downer about the world are not going to be marginalised.

    We disagree. That's fine. But at least I'm not looking at your profile and going 'oh, your self classified as this, that must be why you said something X way'.
    Yes, that's right, we are instead having a circular argument that is going nowhere.
    I work in financial planning. I am interested in metal (all kinds), miniature painting and PC gaming. I live in Scotland.

  7. #47

    Re: Select your Type

    Two things:

    1. This selection thing has divided some of us already. No going back. But then, everybody's got an opinion...you know the rest.
    It's like a formal statement saying that the folks who are on more of a downer about the world are not going to be marginalised.

    How magnanimous of those who would have a more optimistic opinion. Validation and tolerance are offered for less optimistic people even as said validation is denied.
    2. Quite interesting are the points you didn't respond to in my earlier post. The culture of the site preferring those who have moved on, the preference for those who are not beyond the 5 stages, or parental alienation. But hey, people will be 'tolerant' of others who are less optimistic. That's good to know.

    That self identification stuff is obviously great for making us all part of a single group - that group being members on this board.
    Oh wait, we already had that...

    Oh and the accused knee jerk and emotionalism stuff. If it makes you feel better to think I or others are angry, or that I might be furiously typing because I am upset, you go right ahead and think that to your hearts contentment. I'm actually rather amused by all of this, though I was disappointed to see the roll out (decision was made, it was not a suggestion), and pleased to see the semi retraction of this self identification stuff. But damage done in a couple of respects though.

  8. #48

    Re: Select your Type

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Covenant View Post
    Are your posts being moderated?
    Thomas Covenant, yes, I am being moderated.

  9. #49
    Senior Member bob's Avatar
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    Re: Select your Type

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefbrownmonkey View Post
    Damn it. I already went and got my barcode.

    Next it will be a chip on your right hand or forehead without which you cannot buy or sell - it's the Mark Of The Beast I tell you!

    OK, nevermind, just kidding. Since the setting is wholly nominal it doesn't matter that much to me. Maybe it'll help, doesn't seem like it can hurt.
    "Every woman is an engine of lies powered by a core of raw reproductive need"
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  10. #50
    Administrator jagrmeister's Avatar
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    Re: Select your Type

    FYI- we've added a change to the Type field. You can now pick Other and define it yourself if you don't feel you belong to either 3. Please don't abuse this.

    Some of you may be wondering -- who is this Jagrmeister guy? Have a look at some of my posts from MGTOW Forums--> Jagr Archive (collection of my articles)



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  11. #51
    Moderator Thomas Covenant's Avatar
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    Re: Select your Type

    Thomas Covenant, yes, I am being moderated.
    Fair enough Coastal. Although you don't seem to having trouble getting anything through.

    Oh and the accused knee jerk and emotionalism stuff. If it makes you feel better to think I or others are angry, or that I might be furiously typing because I am upset, you go right ahead and think that to your hearts contentment. I'm actually rather amused by all of this, though I was disappointed to see the roll out (decision was made, it was not a suggestion), and pleased to see the semi retraction of this self identification stuff. But damage done in a couple of respects though.
    Obviously I'll accept what you say Demosthenes, you know your own mind and I have no reason to doubt you. Why the sarcastic comments then? Sarcasm to me indicates emotion. But if that's not the case with you, that's fine. Perhaps you can see why I thought that though.

    How magnanimous of those who would have a more optimistic opinion. Validation and tolerance are offered for less optimistic people even as said validation is denied.
    I'm going to sound like a woman now, but what the hell. It's your tone that rubs me up the wrong way Demosthenes. We are supposed to be among friends and when an olive branch is offered, or someone speaks in respect to all the men here in a spirit of inclusiveness, you look at it and well, you make sure that you are patronised, don't you? How do you do that? Anyone would think you are being kept here against your will, or do you have a coup in the offing?

    That self identification stuff is obviously great for making us all part of a single group - that group being members on this board.
    Oh wait, we already had that...
    You're still missing the point. Yes, we are all in the same soccer team. But some of us play in defense and some us up front. MGTOW isn't a monolith, and I think Jagr has done a great job of enshrining this. He hasn't done what a lot of other writers have and said MGTOW is about game, or MGTOW is about activism. He has neatly side-stepped the problem that AVFM and some Youtube commenters have caused which is trying to define MGTOW to suit one end or purpose.

    I think all the aspects of MGTOW have been set out here and in such a way that none has primacy over the others. The old set-up didn't have this explicit statement, and I think it is a powerful one. If you think there's an aspect of MGTOW not covered, why not just say what has been missed?

    In the words of a great investment guy I once met "I'm not asking you to like it, I'm just telling you what it is". I understand all the objections (or I'm trying to at least) I just think a lot of the criticisms may have overlooked some important points.

    Quite interesting are the points you didn't respond to in my earlier post. The culture of the site preferring those who have moved on, the preference for those who are not beyond the 5 stages, or parental alienation.
    That tone again. You obviously don't speak like this in person.

    Regarding the cultural preference for later stage MGTOW (for lack of a decent term) I think it stems from the mods. Having a place to vent is important (because you don't get it in real life). I think I acknowledged that point you made earlier actually. But I have also seen that they are not keen on excessive negativity. MGTOW is not a negative concept. I don't think they want the concept being associated with too much negativity and so guys are encouraged to take positive steps to get beyond the anger and disappointment. This is just my read on it. Any of the mods can correct me on this of course.
    I work in financial planning. I am interested in metal (all kinds), miniature painting and PC gaming. I live in Scotland.

  12. #52
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    Re: Select your Type

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Covenant View Post

    I think all the aspects of MGTOW have been set out here and in such a way that none has primacy over the others. The old set-up didn't have this explicit statement, and I think it is a powerful one. If you think there's an aspect of MGTOW not covered, why not just say what has been missed?
    Maybe i was not paying attention but primacy never really seemed much of a issue once i adjusted my thinking so i saw all of us on here as being part of something regardless of our differences that in some cases were extreme.

    I have not read all the posts but has anybody else mentioned that the 3 sections and descriptions could easily be seen as PUA, MRA and MGTOW sections rather than Bachelors, Neutrals and Ghosts.

    There are obvious differences but they still have certain familiarities about them.
    "Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything ó you canít conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

    -Robert A. Heinlein.

  13. #53
    Senior Member BeijaFlor's Avatar
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    Re: Select your Type

    Quote Originally Posted by ian2211 View Post
    I have not read all the posts but has anybody else mentioned that the 3 sections and descriptions could easily be seen as PUA, MRA and MGTOW sections rather than Bachelors, Neutrals and Ghosts.

    There are obvious differences but they still have certain familiarities about them.
    Mmmmmm ... not quite, Ian. All three camps are still Men Going Their Own Way. But "my own way," as a self-described Ghost, is quite different from, say, "Jagr's own way," as a self-described Bachelor. (Just as the circumstances of our lives are different; I'm retired, he isn't.)

    Bachelors are more gregarious, more outgoing, more socially adventurous and motivated - but that really doesn't equate to a PUA. It's not about trophy-hunting and notch-count; it's about living The Good Life, engaging the world, taking risks for desired rewards, living adventurously and enjoying the party. And it's about living life your own way, post-anger, with no heed to Society's expectations or demands.

    Neutrals are MGTOW Central; red-pill aware, in many cases recovering from the "slings and arrows" of outrageous Cupcake and Family Court. This community will be more of a "general discussion" space for issues that are important to all MGTOW.

    Ghosts are more contemplative, self-sufficient, and comfortable with solitude; we're the quiet ones out on the fringes, the explorers, who prefer our own company to the distractions of the crowd. We're not so much "antisocial" as asocial, indifferent to Society and to socializing. We're about living The Good Life, too, but living it solo.

    We are all MGTOW. These three "communities" reflect the diversity of the MGTOW lifestyle.
    Last edited by BeijaFlor; August 4, 2015 at 5:47 PM.
    "The Red Pill is the start of the journey, not the end." - Chairborne

    "Our most dangerous enemies are men who have no loyalty to men." - William Noy

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  14. #54
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    Re: Select your Type

    Quote Originally Posted by BeijaFlor View Post

    We are all MGTOW. These three "communities" reflect the diversity of the MGTOW lifestyle.
    But is not 3 is far less diversity than each of us being a individual and having a unique opinion on each unique post or topic?

    Sure there are leanings in the 3 directions you have listed but i could easily be seen to have a foot in each camp.

    I do not date as i P4P but i still socialize when the mood takes me and i make a point while doing so to pay no heed to Society's expectations or demands.

    So i am a Bachelor in several respects.

    But i do pay attention to current events and what feminists, MRA and SJW's are doing and bring them up while socializing as a Bachelor if i think it will offend a feminazi or a whore looking for a payday or in some cases help a potential male victim.

    So i could also qualify as a Neutral.

    But i am also self-sufficient, and comfortable with solitude as i live alone and have no interest at all in company other than heading over to my local brothel now and again. I also think that the only way to beat the system is to avoid becoming part of it as much as possible in fact my one of my favorite sayings is "when the enemy is too powerful to be defeated the only hope for victory is to deny it battle" and its one i did get reprimanded on here for when i posted it in a thread on the "action" section some time ago now.

    So i qualify as a ghost.

    Certainly some organization is needed but there is a reason i and many many others post in the lounge and have no problem when i get replies that totally go against my thoughts on a matter and its because it reminds me of the huge diversity that is under the MGTOW umbrella and opens my mind to other perspectives and reasons all you other MGTOW are here.

    I am not entirely the same person i was when i first came here and while the changes are small relatively speaking they are certainly all positive.

    So i will simply say that i hope this change has the same effect.
    "Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything ó you canít conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

    -Robert A. Heinlein.

  15. #55
    Administrator jagrmeister's Avatar
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    Re: Select your Type

    Quote Originally Posted by ian2211 View Post
    But is not 3 is far less diversity than each of us being a individual and having a unique opinion on each unique post or topic?
    Use "Other" and define yourself.

    Some of you may be wondering -- who is this Jagrmeister guy? Have a look at some of my posts from MGTOW Forums--> Jagr Archive (collection of my articles)



    Stuff I do: Box, Surf, Tennis (3.5/4.0), Downhill skiing. I lift 4x a week and have for 10 years.
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    Random facts: I admire Steve Jobs. Favorite travel spots (Russia, Central America).
    *If you're on Twitter, follow me: MGTOW_Jagr

  16. #56
    Senior Member Insidious_Sid's Avatar
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    Re: Select your Type

    Okay... Looking at this again...

    Here is my feedback. I mean this to be constructive.

    I don't like how a topic is tied to a MGTOW type.
    Why can't a bachelor or neutral talk about ghosting strategies, if they want to try on / start ghosting?
    Why would only neutrals get to fulfill their MGTOW duty combating the evil sexist gendercide movement that is modern feminism?

    I kind-of get the motivation here, but I don't like tying topics to "member status" because it seems like we're being pigeon-holed into specific topics or philosophies and fellas, I gotta say, me and the Incredible Hulk are the last two fellas you would want to put in a confined space.

    I'm happy to follow the format but the last thing I want to do is to start feeling compelled to protest with rebellion or passive aggression or any other bullshit. Like "I know this should go OVER THERE, but I am posting OVER HERE because..." Oh dear god. Please, somebody SHOOT ME if we start sounding like a bunch of pedantic f*cking women. Nobody here is like that. That's why I LIKE IT HERE. People speak their minds. SOmetimes sparks even fly. Sometimes people get banned. Omelets are made. Eggs are broken. B.F.D. We're men. We can handle it.

    I just gotta say. When fences go up, I start getting nervous.

    I'm all for improvement and evolution of this site and it's not my site and I think of myself as a guest and contributor here.

    That said, I'm a little nervous.

    Be well, my brothers. Live well.
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    - Where have all the good men gone? Away. Far far away... from you.
    - NAWALT? Maybe, but EWALT means Russian Roulette is a much safer bet...

  17. #57
    Senior Member BeijaFlor's Avatar
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    Re: Select your Type

    I can understand your nervousness, Sid, but now you can put in your own 'type.'

    Just click "Other" and type in your own label - maybe "Insidious."
    "The Red Pill is the start of the journey, not the end." - Chairborne

    "Our most dangerous enemies are men who have no loyalty to men." - William Noy

    "I am not going to sacrifice my freedom and wealth for your ideals." - Primus Pilus

    "If you can't be happy on you're own, you can't be happy -- full stop." - Wilfred

    My introduction: I Was MGTOW When MGTOW Wasn't Cool...

    My blog: Beyond The Sunset

  18. #58
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    Re: Select your Type

    Quote Originally Posted by BeijaFlor View Post
    I can understand your nervousness, Sid, but now you can put in your own 'type.'

    Just click "Other" and type in your own label - maybe "Insidious."
    Does it not concern you at all that as far as society used to be concerned "OTHER" = "MGTOW" even if they did not have a actual name for us?.

    Actually i am sure it has concerned you and you came to this decision after a lot of thought but you have to understand that we have not.
    "Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything ó you canít conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

    -Robert A. Heinlein.

  19. #59
    Senior Member BeijaFlor's Avatar
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    Re: Select your Type

    Quote Originally Posted by ian2211 View Post
    Does it not concern you at all that as far as society used to be concerned "OTHER" = "MGTOW" even if they did not have a actual name for us?.

    Actually i am sure it has concerned you and you came to this decision after a lot of thought but you have to understand that we have not.
    I am not a label, and neither are you.
    "The Red Pill is the start of the journey, not the end." - Chairborne

    "Our most dangerous enemies are men who have no loyalty to men." - William Noy

    "I am not going to sacrifice my freedom and wealth for your ideals." - Primus Pilus

    "If you can't be happy on you're own, you can't be happy -- full stop." - Wilfred

    My introduction: I Was MGTOW When MGTOW Wasn't Cool...

    My blog: Beyond The Sunset

  20. #60
    Senior Member Insidious_Sid's Avatar
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    Re: Select your Type

    Ghost it is.

    In any case, I get why the site operators don't want branches of MGTOW scrapping needlessly. Let's face it, we're a group of contrarians - but I would hope we could all put aside differences and focus on our main commonality: walking away from the plantation.
    - Feminism is Cancer.
    - Where have all the good men gone? Away. Far far away... from you.
    - NAWALT? Maybe, but EWALT means Russian Roulette is a much safer bet...


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